Thoughts on the evolution of the Rogue Isles

[MTeague]

43 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Does game tech even allow for a "common but not co-op" PVE zone?  (I'm of the mind that full strength co-op zones need to be very carefully justified in story/lore terms.)  Not saying shouldn't do this, just getting a gauge as to how big the task might be. 

 

I guess it's a perception thing.

 

A true Co-op zone would imply some overall un-ignoreable threat such that they cannot afford to oppose each other, and must work together, for their own long-term self-interest. <Peter Venkman voice> "Heroes and Villains, living together.... Mass Hysteria!"

 

I'm hoping for something more like sure, I'm a villain, in ur zone, causing trouble... but not an outright mayhem mission. More like grabbing some cargo from Independance Port, or conducting a deal with the Tsoo. I'm not in anyone's face, and unless there's City Wide DNA detectors constantly scanning the whole city, none of the good guys have any idea that I'm present or what shenanigans I'm up to.  Honestly, the game's infrastructure might not allow for that.  I don't know.  But I would like to see more shared terrain. Not Co-Op, not necessarily PvP, but something more where you're working in the shadows.

[Alchemystic]

7 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

The "tense" of this game's narrative all over the place, and really has been since the first Invasion Event took place with the forces of Rularuu.  Not to mention the bizarre interplay of player-characters being the primary protagonists on the same storylines creating a ludonarrative dissonance the likes of which could rip a hole through space-time.  (Which is my personal head-canon explanation for Ouroboros.)

Flexible temporal-narrative structures will probably yield a stronger return of investment on keeping the writing pithy and player-affirming.  But someone could write a doctoral thesis on that subject before addressing all the salient points and how they interact with one another.

 

Oh yes, this.

 

I think there's actually a name for this now, I think it's called the Archer paradox? people noticed that in the Archer TV show there was a lot of inconsistency with when the series was set, looking as though it could be anywhere from the early 80's all the way to the present day, so people just decided to take the idea and give it a name 😛

[Doc_Scorpion]

 

33 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

What I'm proposing is no different. Striga Isle is the focus of a new storyline, one which could be explored further.

Your proposal is entirely different in that it takes away content from Blueside - without evolving the Blueside storyline.  Just as with hazard zone revamps, the precedents you cite do not support your case.

There is no precedent for simply erasing a zone from the flow of Blueside time as though it never existed.  There is no precedent for changing a zone's alignment and rendering it inaccessible to those who could formerly travel there freely.

 

33 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Otherwise, feel free to put forward constructive ideas, that's what the thread's for after all.

This thread, this forum, is for discussion.  There's neither rule nor custom that binds the denizens thereof to support your ideas nor preventing them from objecting to it.  (So long as they do so within the bounds of the forum rules and the code of conduct.)

And that's without mentioning that "constructive criticism" does not mean "no negative comments".

[Alchemystic]

54 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

 

Your proposal is entirely different in that it takes away content from Blueside - without evolving the Blueside storyline.  Just as with hazard zone revamps, the precedents you cite do not support your case.
 

 

Like I said last time, I didn't say I was revamping them the same way, I simply said that RWZ and Dark Astoria are examples of revamped areas that are no longer considered 'hazard zones'.

 

54 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

There is no precedent for simply erasing a zone from the flow of Blueside time as though it never existed.  There is no precedent for changing a zone's alignment and rendering it inaccessible to those who could formerly travel there freely.

 

Why not? Who decided this? You?

 

You are not an authority on the matter, so please don't act like one.

 

54 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

This thread, this forum, is for discussion.  There's neither rule nor custom that binds the denizens thereof to support your ideas nor preventing them from objecting to it.  (So long as they do so within the bounds of the forum rules and the code of conduct.)

And that's without mentioning that "constructive criticism" does not mean "no negative comments".

 

And yet, you have brought nothing to the discussion.

 

As I said in my first response, I acknowledge your feedback, but I'm afraid we just don't see eye to eye on the subject, and that's alright.

 

What isn't alright is being standoffish and condescending, that's the part where it's obstructive.

 

So I just propose we end this here, neither of us have anything else to gain from further going off topic.

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Tyrannical

[Darmian]

So, the Rogue Isles then?  Lovely this time of year I hear.

[Greycat]

On 3/21/2021 at 12:07 PM, Tyrannical said:

The mission arcs and task forces that were once available in Striga Isle will still be accessible, just from Boomtown, so not much there would have changed besides location.

 Rgh. No thanks.

 

Most of the Striga arcs (and the Kheld arcs that take place there) wouldn't make sense in Boomtown.

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Tyrannical said:

Like I said last time, I didn't say I was revamping them the same way, I simply said that RWZ and Dark Astoria are examples of revamped areas that are no longer considered 'hazard zones'.

Even taking them as examples of "no longer hazard zones", they're still irrelevant as precedent.  Why?  Because you're not making Striga into "not a hazard zone".  You're effectively erasing it from Blueside entirely.  (An Echo: zone is not a replacement, it's a consolation prize.)  These are neither the same thing nor conceptually related in any way.

That's the basic problem here - from a Blueside perspective, you're not evolving the storyline.  You're simply taking a chunk out of it.
 

 

26 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Most of the Striga arcs (and the Kheld arcs that take place there) wouldn't make sense in Boomtown.

Precisely.  This isn't like Galaxy where the storylines were generic and pretty much duplicated in their entirety in Atlas.  This is like Faultline - where the stories and the environment are inescapably intertwined.

[Alchemystic]

1 hour ago, Darmian said:

So, the Rogue Isles then?  Lovely this time of year I hear.

 

Yeah, I already moved on, but I guess others haven't.

[TemporalVileTerror]

It's my present understanding (which I fully admit to probably being woefully incomplete) that building a zone right now is a process of writing the zone layout in text format, as there isn't a tool to drag-and-drop pieces of the map like the Base Editor.  (Although, I do wonder if the two text formats are similar enough that a converter could be created to allow us to take a demorecord of a Base and convert it in to a valid Zone map, minus elements like pathing channels, spawn locations, and event triggers, obviously.)

 

Be that as it may (and barring some dedicated members of this community or OuroDevs crafting a map devtool), I would really, really, REALLY like to see some of the southern Etoile Islands get fleshed out.

 

It might even be a chance for a bit of low- / no-Arachnos presence Redzones, so @MTeague could be a little happier.

 

While the following might be "Too Real!" . . . it would certainly offer a lot of opportunities for Villainy, Roguery, and Vigilantism!

I've personally envisioned an island or archipelago with a relatively untouched aboriginal population.  Arachnos sees no value in the islands for strategic or resource purposes, and leave them alone.  BUT unscrupulous developers (backed by villainous enemies of Arachnos) see opportunity for building resorts and holiday retreats in the area, and start tearing down the rainforest there.

Cue PLENTY of potential mission content!

For Villains:  Either throw in with the backers, or vie against them for dominance.
For Rogues:  Either take contracts from the developers for profit, or from ecoterrorist groups and/or Longbow to reclaim the land for the native population.
For Vigilantes:  Either destroy the corrupt businesses seeking to exploit the land, or tear the island apart hunting for international criminals seeking refuge in the dense jungle.

 

But, yeah.  I do recognize the complication with authoring content which deals with such subject matter.  While we've seen it appear in other works of fiction, there's something to be said about wilfully participating in that fantasy.  Writing such content should probably be done with a very open approach, so community feedback can be collected every step of the way.

[MTeague]

Fallout New Vegas / Honest Hearts DLC had an underteched tribe, and you had the option to help them fight off other factions who wanted the land, make a deal with such factions, or just outright say "nope, I wanna be a bad guy" and be a colonial conquistador.  So, it can be done. 

 

Of course, could also argue that's easier to implement in a world like Fallout where a lot of social norms and expectations went out the window when the bombs fell. I find it more difficult to believe you could have untouched tribes like that anywhere in the Altantic in the modern era.  Just TOO much sea traffic / air traffic, not terribly believable anything was so far out of touch for so long.  But I could definitely see that kind of scenario and the assorted moral dilemma's popping up with Dimensional Travel.

[TemporalVileTerror]

Magic.

 

I mean that legitimately, by the way.  

 

Oh no, SPOILERS!  *flails limbs*

But one of the major story elements for this island idea of mine would revolve around the discovery of this island was held back for so long due to a magical force keeping the island shrouded from discovery.  Arachnos broke the spell to see what was hiding behind the veil, only to discover that it wasn't anything of particular interest to them, so they just said "meh.  Leave the islands as scraps for the others.  We have more important paths to power to bother with!"

[Clave Dark 5]

9 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

I think it's called the Archer paradox? people noticed that in the Archer TV show there was a lot of inconsistency with when the series was set, looking as though it could be anywhere from the early 80's all the way to the present day, so people just decided to take the idea and give it a name 😛

Pretty sure that intentional and the show's part because they wanted to do what they wanted to do without having to play by the rules; the jokes and fun of having bayou boat chases was the point, not historical accuracy.

 

Just look at the vehicles on Paragon City streets, same thing!

[UltraAlt]

I think the DEVs should put 3-4x the thought into Hero content as they do Villain content. I say this due to the relation size of the active server population.

 

Relation to Praetorian content is weird as Praetorian content turns into co-op content so perhaps putting some focus there would increase content that would benefit all Heroes, Villains, and Praetorians.

 

The kind of alternate leveling path that I would add to the villain side would be one where contacts bring the new player into a non-Arachnos organization that has the player do missions to help the organization. the leaders have the middle level guys (npcs) push the player around ... at the start ...

As the player levels, they get to gain influence in the gang/organization and then start pushing lower levels (npcs - possibly having underlings now using the primary and secondary colors of the PCs SG) around with the boss/leader of the gang/org (AV) pushing them around still. The number of minions, lts, bosses, and individual NPCs (named allies) that persuaded to join the PC sub-gang is tracked as leveling progress.

As the player levels, they convince more of the gang/org to side with them (in which case the start wearing the primary and secondary colors of the PCs SG). 

Reaching 50 (or maybe even 45) the player confronts the boss/leader of the gang/org (AV). There is a big gang fight between the player (with their allies and minions) versus the leader/boss (AV) and any allies and minions that the player has not brought to their side. If the player starts being defeated possibly his minions would break for it and run. Same goes for the AV, their followers might not just run but change sides and start helping the PC defeat the AV in order to get on the PC's good ...er... I mean evil side.

After defeating the AV, the player would now have missions as the gang leader; fighting off rivals, using the acquired gang in bank missions, fighting other criminal gangs, and general terrorizing THE CITY missions.

 

I'm not sure how that would work in team play, but I think that would be an interesting leveling path for villains.

[Steampunkette]

I'd like to weigh in on the Striga idea just a tiny bit:

 

Change nothing. Add stuff.

 

Instead of "Taking Striga" from the heroes or creating an "Echo: Striga" why not just add all the villain contacts to the island for various missions against the Council and have it be later in the narrative?

 

The vast majority of missions are instanced, so write up a lot of villain missions and a few heroic missions opposing the new villainous actions on the island and go from there. Villains can invade the Council Base to "Defeat 30 Council Soldiers in the Throat" or "Fight 30 War Wolves in Striga" just fine.

 

No need to make it a Co-Op Zone, either. Heroes do the Peebles Missions, Villains do the New Stuff. And never the twain shall join forces against the Council (Unless you create a new TF).

 

Just put a few little Islands full of Villain contacts around, throw some new NPC spawns into the town where whichever baddies you're adding to the zone are fighting the Council or harassing the locals, put in a new base of operations in one of the many less-utilized areas, maybe throw in some Longbow for Flavor™ and have at.

 

We should start thinking of these types of things as -shared-, not -swapped-. Not Co-Op. We're picking the new direction of the game, folks. Let's make it interesting.

[Alchemystic]

I did notice one thing about he Rogue Isles which was that you barely see much change after the Praetorian war.

 

Paragon City has plenty of little changes to showcase how Praetorian refugees are settling into the city, and the stories of characters that were part of the whole thing... But in the isles? Doesn't look like theres much of it.

 

I'd like to see Lord Recluse attempting to indoctrinate Praetorian refugees into his regime, and perhaps forcing scientists to help him reconstruct the Keyes Reactor, or upgrade his Arachnobots with clockwork tech, or maybe attempt to build the sonic fences to strengthen the perimeter. He could even push to introduce the technology and training from the Praetorian Police Department to the Rogue Isles Police, perhaps as a higher level upgrade much like the PPD functions.

 

If it's possible, having a new map to showcase this would be great. Something similar to Khallisti Wharf, where Praetorian refugees live, featuring a district for civilians patrolled by the new RIP, a partially constructed reactor being worked on by newly upgraded Arachnobots, and an Arachnos fort designed to overlook the efforts. Perhaps we could see Doctor Aeon disgraced, his power system in Cap Au Diable no longer competitive with this new technology, and he defects to Crey instead. Maybe in turn Crey spies would appear in the map, monitoring the situation, gathering what information they can.

 

We could even throw the UPA in as a faction that is trying to fight back against Arachnos and the Praetorians that joined the RIP, saying that they have traded one dictator for another, and have them battle in the streets.

 

I also recall something about a potential arms race between Black Scorpion and Battle Maiden, the whole powersuit vs nanotech thing? Could probably introduce that as a story arc, perhaps alluding to Recluse seeing more promise in Battle Maiden, and threatens to replace Black Scorpion if he doesn't get results. This also loops back to Crey, who once held possession of Valkyrie's 'nanotech spear'. They could serve as an antagonistic force led by the defected Doctor Aeon in attempts to steal technology and win his way back into Recluse's favor. So we have a three way standoff over who gets to be Recluses favourite, each going for it for different reasons.

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Tyrannical

[Darmian]

16 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

I would really, really, REALLY like to see some of the southern Etoile Islands get fleshed out.

Yep!  Ditto and further ditto!

 

I'm still pushing for BB and WB ro be full Red PVE though.  They're already fully there, and dead.

[TemporalVileTerror]

PvP is a touchy enough subject that I don't think we should be cannibalizing their content for others' use.  I'm not a fan of how PvP is done in this game because of how distant it feels from the PvE experience, but there are clearly a dedicated set of players here who are passionate about PvP.  

[Darmian]

2 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

PvP is a touchy enough subject that I don't think we should be cannibalizing their content for others' use.  I'm not a fan of how PvP is done in this game because of how distant it feels from the PvE experience, but there are clearly a dedicated set of players here who are passionate about PvP.  

Yeah, well that's why I'm also advocating Echo DA be swapped to PVP.  It would definitely fit between BB and WB levels wise, and ...hunting the enemy through the fog! That AND Echo Crash Site.  Ok, those two will annoy some I suppose, but PVPers go to PVP areas to PVP, so I don't see an issue. If there is one maybe a full PVPer can point it out to me.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Darmian

[TemporalVileTerror]

Yeah, but -I- like Echo:  Dark Astoria, and don't want it to become a PvP zone . . . 

[MTeague]

12 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

We should start thinking of these types of things as -shared-, not -swapped-. Not Co-Op. We're picking the new direction of the game, folks. Let's make it interesting.

 

Currently, only Co-Op zones, and PvP zones, allow both Heroes (not Vig) and Villains (not Rogues) to exist in the same zone. 

Which is why I was envisioning a "Red Striga" and a "Blue Striga" that visually look the same but are technically separate instances. 

 

That said? I think it would be wonderful if some careful controls were put in place to allow for an entirely new classification of zone, where you can be in the same zone, can't team up, have totally different contacts and totally different story arcs, but yet is not an automatic pvp free-for-all.  (I'd be willing to talk turkey on some kind of flagging conditions scheme though)

[Darmian]

3 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Yeah, but -I- like Echo:  Dark Astoria, and don't want it to become a PvP zone . . . 

I do too.  I prefer it to the revamp to be honest.  But if you got BB and WB for the Rogue Isles and the price was Echo DA...well?

[TemporalVileTerror]

No deal, sorry.

 

I do want progress and evolution, but I would much rather that come in the form of -new- things.  I don't want to sacrifice existing zones.  The death of Galaxy City is still a sour point for me, after all.

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, MTeague said:

 

Currently, only Co-Op zones, and PvP zones, allow both Heroes (not Vig) and Villains (not Rogues) to exist in the same zone. 

Which is why I was envisioning a "Red Striga" and a "Blue Striga" that visually look the same but are technically separate instances. 

 

That said? I think it would be wonderful if some careful controls were put in place to allow for an entirely new classification of zone, where you can be in the same zone, can't team up, have totally different contacts and totally different story arcs, but yet is not an automatic pvp free-for-all.  (I'd be willing to talk turkey on some kind of flagging conditions scheme though)

I'm sure myself and @TemporalVileTerrorhad a chat somewhere else on here concerning things like a villain being able to take "contracts" in hero zones.  The Skulls in Kings need to bring in a ringer to do something, so they get Rogue Isles muscle over,  You would be mechanically "off limits" to heroes whaling on you but still operating in the shadows.  Not sure how it would work but there's an idea there.

[Darmian]

Well, we'd all love the new things, but I reckon there's a lot more mileage in leveraging what's there.  Of course I'm still advocating "doubling" BB and WB as my ideal, the swaps was me looking at a possible alternate route to getting those zones for RI.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Darmian

[MTeague]

1 minute ago, Darmian said:

I'm sure myself and @TemporalVileTerrorhad a chat somewhere else on here concerning things like a villain being able to take "contracts" in hero zones.  The Skulls in Kings need to bring in a ringer to do something, so they get Rogue Isles muscle over,  You would be mechanically "off limits" to heroes whaling on you but still operating in the shadows.  Not sure how it would work but there's an idea there.

 

100% all for this. 

I'm just thinking it might require certain parts of maps be "safe for undercover folks" and certain parts NOT be.

Like Kings Row? Lurking around the factories and warehouses and meeting villain contacts discreetly?  Awesome.

 

But if you literally walk into the police station or decide to dance in front of Blue Steel or Miss Liberty, they should use you as the Titliest-1 in a round of Hellion Golf. And maybe other in-zone heroes should be allowed to gank you until you flee the zone (or take a hospital ride to a "safe" hidden villain base in the zone).  Something to keep it from being Toooo out of bounds and putting SOME limits on what you can do while undercover.