Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[Hopestar]

I'm going to admit, I haven't read through this entire thread, but I'm going to give my feedback on Trick Arrow anyway.

 

Power Changes (Numbers provided are Defender values)

•  Entangling Arrow
  • Immobilize duration reduced from scale 15 to scale 7
  • No longer has a -Recharge debuff
  • Now applies a 30s -Res debuff

-  So with Entangling Arrow, it's in a pretty ok spot debuff-wise, I think this is a fine change except I think the Immobilize duration should be increased to 10,

           to help with leveling and it is named as an Immobilize power after all.

•  Glue Arrow
  • -Recharge debuff increased from -20% to -40%
  • Debuff duration increased from 30s to 60s

-  Ok for what it does, but counter intuitive to Oil Slick Arrow which I'll go over later.

•  Ice Arrow
  • Increased the -Recharge debuff from -12.% to 25%
  • Now applies a 60s -Special and -Damage debuff

-  The buffs are ok, but what it has originally, the speed debuffs are an unnecessary afterthought of just because it's "Ice" it should slow movement, but this set already has a ton of movement control, too much even. I suggest increasing the hold duration to 10 seconds to coincide with the rest of the effects being 10s and allowing it to be a lot more useful for the end cost on Corruptors and Masterminds.

•  Poison Gas Arrow
  • -Damage debuff now lasts 60 seconds
  • -Damage debuff increased from -31.25% to -50%
    • Half this debuff is now irresistible

-  Honestly, the damage debuff is nice, but at least increase the Sleep to mag 3 or change it to a Hold. Sleep is just a bad status to have for anything other than keeping some other group from waking up that you aren't fighting yet, in which the -damage debuff is pointless. Move the sleep to Glue Arrow and give this between Caltrops and Freezing Rain damage.

•  Acid Arrow
  • Debuff radius increased from 8ft to 15ft (damage still has an 8ft radius)
  • -Res debuff moved to Disruption Arrow
    • This power still has a -25% defence debuff
  • Now applies a -heal resistance debuff (heals on the target will be less effective)
    • Halved in PvP
  • Now applies a -special resistance debuff (Endurance, ToHit, Regen, Recovery, Recharge Time, and Endurance Discount debuffs against the target will be stronger)
  • Debuff duration increased from 20s to 45s
    • 20s in PvP
  • This power has a new icon

-  Increasing the radius to 25ft and the damage to 15ft whilst also increasing the damage to be equal to Traps' caltrops (2.78 damage) while keeping the 21 ticks will do nothing but help the set cover it's still very many holes, since you've got so many Immobilizes that enemies end up not getting hit if you're unable to corral them into a single spot; increase endurance cost to 10.40 to balance.

•  Disruption Arrow
  • Target cap increased from 10 to 16
  • Now applies a -MaxEnd debuff and takes Endurance Modification enhancements and sets
  • -Res debuff doubled (moved from Acid Arrow)
  • Only one Disruption Arrow can be maintained at once
  • Recharge decreased from 60s to 30s
  • Duration increased from 30s to 45s

-  The -5 MaxEnd feels like an afterthought because the only thing that helps is if you have endurance drain in the set as well. As it stands, the only endurance drain is in the T9, EMP Arrow in which you're waiting for it to recharge before the -MaxEnd is useful again and even then -5 is nothing even when enhanced. Costs too much endurance for what little effects it gives, especially on Masterminds but they are another problem entirely.

•  Oil Slick Arrow
  • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements

-  I don't see the usefulness of this when most of this set is slows and immobilizes while even setting it on fire does too little damage. You also have no means to ignite it. What I would suggest as a replacement here in this T8, is something akin to Howling Twilight, a revive that can also heal or give resistances to allies as this is a buff/debuff set.

•  EMP Arrow
  • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
  • No longer applies -recovery to the caster
  • Half of the -regen debuff now lasts 45 seconds (previously the entire -regen debuff dropped off after 15 seconds, now only half of it does)
  • Hold duration for non-robots reduced by roughly 50%
  • This power now adds an ally buff to any ally or pet within the radius of the power (the caster is not affected)
    • 15% damage resistance to all but Toxic (not enhanceable)
    • Resistance against End Drain and Recovery Debuffs
    • Protection against status effects and knock back

-  I wholly understand the purpose of the 300 second cooldown on this power, but consider this:

Low damage to ONLY what is deemed mechanical

A ONE (1) Magnitude Hold for a lower than average AoE Hold duration.
Even lower Hold duration to what isn't mechanical and still magnitude ONE.

Low value resistance buffs and protections that can't be enhanced and don't really belong. I'd stick them in a new T8 as mentioned.

 

If it's not a nuke, barely can hold a minion, and barely buffs your teammates, 300 seconds and 23 endurance for very little gain is not worth it. The only thing this gives that's anywhere GOOD is the -regen which isn't helpful against anything but AVs, Monsters, and Giant Monsters.

Bring the hold to mag 3, remove the mechanical requirements, and increase the damage. Then it'll be worth the time and endurance.
 

This brings me to things this set still lacks:
Healing, Recovery, Defense, consistent Resistance, team and self Buffs, decent mag anything except 1 single target stun, a Revive, and Damage.
In essence, all you have is a debuff set that can't do anything but immobilize the enemy and reduce their damage output while you wait for EMP arrow to give the robots some slight ouchies as you shower them with Lemon Juice Acid Arrow and keep them from falling asleep to your "poison gas".

 

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, brass_eagle said:

So I did see that it has -40% resistance to regeneration, so this mean that -regen debuffs are more effective? Or is there an actual -regen debuff. Can someone clarify for me?

 

Regen debuffs are more effective.

[PorkTips]

21 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Exactly, and /powexeclocation target ALLOWS you to do that. Nothing is being taken away from you besides the laziness of not making a bind/macro.

 

All it would do is ADD the functionality that should have ALWAYS been there, and allow us all to be happy.

 

It has nothing to do with laziness. The power works and feels better as-is.

 

If they can make macro buttons:

 

    a) show the cooldown / availability on the button

    b) not fail to activate 10% of the times, as happens often

 

Then it would be worth considering for me.

 

If anything, I think Disruption Arrow and Oil Slick Arrow should be foe-targeted.

 

[Luminara]

  

3 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

-  Honestly, the damage debuff is nice, but at least increase the Sleep to mag 3 or change it to a Hold. Sleep is just a bad status to have for anything other than keeping some other group from waking up that you aren't fighting yet, in which the -damage debuff is pointless. Move the sleep to Glue Arrow and give this between Caltrops and Freezing Rain damage.

 

It's a support power in a support set, not a controller power, not a damage power.  That's not the direction the HC team wants to take TA toward.

 

5 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

-  Increasing the radius to 25ft and the damage to 15ft whilst also increasing the damage to be equal to Traps' caltrops (2.78 damage)

 

It's a support power in a support set, not a damage power.  That's not the direction the HC team wants to take TA toward.

 

5 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

since you've got so many Immobilizes

 

TA has one Immobilize.

 

7 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

-  I don't see the usefulness of this when most of this set is slows and immobilizes

 

TA has one Immobilize.

 

8 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

while even setting it on fire does too little damage.

 

It deals as much base damage as most of the blaster T9 powers.

 

10 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

You also have no means to ignite it.

 

/Fire Blast, /Energy Blast, /Electrical Blast, /Dual Pistols, /Archery, /Assault Rifle, /Beam Rifle, /Radiation Blast, /Sonic Blast and /Water Blast all have attacks which can ignite OSA.  The Apprentice Charm and Taser Dart origin powers can ignite OSA.  Numerous temporary powers can ignite OSA.  Energy and Fire damage procs can ignite OSA.  Teammates and pets can ignite OSA.  Critters can ignite OSA.

 

13 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

What I would suggest as a replacement here in this T8, is something akin to Howling Twilight, a revive that can also heal or give resistances to allies as this is a buff/debuff set.

 

...

 

🤨

 

15 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

This brings me to things this set still lacks:
Healing, Recovery, Defense,

 

It has -ToHit, which is appropriate for a debuff set.

 

17 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

consistent Resistance,

 

It has -Damage, which is appropriate for a debuff set.

 

17 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

team and self Buffs, decent mag anything except 1 single target stun, a Revive, and Damage.

 

It's a debuffing support set, not a control set, not a buff set, not a damage set.  That's not the direction the HC team wants to take TA toward.

 

19 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

In essence, all you have is a debuff set

 

Yes, that's correct.

 

20 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

that can't do anything but immobilize the enemy and reduce their damage output

 

And reduce their hit chances, and reduce their Defense, and reduce their Resistances, and reduce their attack recharge speed, and reduce their movement speed, and reduce their resistances to debuffs, and knock them down, and decimate spawns with a DoT equivalent to blaster nukes, and...

 

Are you sure you tested TA, not something else?

[Bossk_Hogg]

On 10/24/2020 at 12:22 PM, macskull said:

That is intentional, as TA is intended to be a buff/debuff set and not a damage set. With the ability to pick your own origin power at the P2W vendor this shouldn't even be a concern.

Thats just irritating pixelbitching to target the damn thing. Putting a 1 point energy damage in disruption arrow would fix it.

[brass_eagle]

49 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Gotcha, yes, that is confusing actually haha. It is resistance to regen. So it does not lower the targets regeneration by itself. But any regen debuffs you apply afterwards is 40% stronger

Thank you much, Bopper, for clarifying. It's a "new" idea to me this -debuff resistance. But I like it. I think it is a step in the right direction to bring support back to glory. 🙂 Testing now and gathering thoughts.

 

The only one I have to share now: Should this power have -defense debuff resistance? That is missing. Or CC -res.

[zenblack]

I feel the EMP arrow should be modified in the following ways:

 

1.) Target Location with duration the arrow and AOE effect constantly pulsing a refresh to the buff/debuffs. These numbers can be finessed but perhaps 15 sec duration on the arrow, 45 sec duration on the buff/debuff.

 

2.) Allow the caster to enter the field and gain it's effects.

 

This would be much more in line with a t9 buff power.

[Luminara]

10 minutes ago, brass_eagle said:

The only one I have to share now: Should this power have -defense debuff resistance? That is missing. Or CC -res.

 

In Ice Arrow.

[brass_eagle]

5 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

In Ice Arrow.

No that is -strength, not -res.

[Luminara]

4 minutes ago, brass_eagle said:

No that is -strength, not -res.

 

-Def is defense debuffing, which is in Acid and OSA, -strength Def is defense debuff resistance debuffing, which is in Ice.

[brass_eagle]

5 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

-Def is defense debuffing, which is in Acid and OSA, -strength Def is defense debuff resistance debuffing, which is in Ice.

I am referring to Defense debuff resistance. Like what is in SR, EA, etc.. toggles. But a negative effect. Something to make defense debuffs stronger. Or CC's last longer... e.g. Stun resistance but not protection.

[WindDemon21]

54 minutes ago, PorkTips said:

 

It has nothing to do with laziness. The power works and feels better as-is.

 

If they can make macro buttons:

 

    a) show the cooldown / availability on the button

    b) not fail to activate 10% of the times, as happens often

 

Then it would be worth considering for me.

 

If anything, I think Disruption Arrow and Oil Slick Arrow should be foe-targeted.

 

I do wish they could make macros show cooldowns, but it's not like its too hard to have the icon above or near it to show this which I already do for lots of location powers.

 

I'm also pretty sure they mentioned for this patch fixing that issue with the target location code so it no longer fails.

 

But versus it not working at all if the enemy is flying (thus FORCING you to take and entangle arrow to bring them down first), or having it constantly not placed where you want it cause the target moved before it set, or the main issue being that you can't put it where it just touches the mob in between the mob and the group, thus allowing for maximum area for the mob to have to traverse to get the most out of the power or placing it at a corner and pulling them into it, is not worth forcing it to be its current horrid instance when the fact remains that there IS a workaround for you, but there is not a workaround for it to be used as it should as an actual location power.

 

I would FAR more get behind making it simply a one hit long duration slow debuff like lingering radiation/neurotoxic breath if its not going to be properly made an actual location based power versus what it currently is.

[WindDemon21]

35 minutes ago, brass_eagle said:

 

The only one I have to share now: Should this power have -defense debuff resistance? That is missing. Or CC -res.

I've noticed this too I'm assuming it does and they just forgot to mention it in the notes.

[brass_eagle]

3 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

I've noticed this too I'm assuming it does and they just forgot to mention it in the notes.

I don't think so. How do I add an image....

 

[Luminara]

13 minutes ago, brass_eagle said:

I am referring to Defense debuff resistance. Like what is in SR, EA, etc.. toggles. But a negative effect. Something to make defense debuffs stronger. Or CC's last longer... e.g. Stun resistance but not protection.

19 minutes ago, Luminara said:

-strength Def is defense debuff resistance debuffing, which is in Ice.

 

[brass_eagle]

4 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

-strength in Def is the ability to provide a Defense buff. 

-res in Def is the ability to take more or less from Defense debuffs as I understand it. 

 

But I was also asking, my original question, if -Def Debuff Res should be in Acid Arrow. Thank you for actually reading.

[Hopestar]

@brass_eagle I just can't understand the fact they think Oil Slick = a Blaster Nuke when a blaster nuke is average 250 damage and Oil Slick is 240 damage but only with 75 perfect rolls over 15 seconds, at 1.0x accuracy, in a 7' radius, from a pseudopet's pseudopet that won't take your enhancements into effect.

2 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Oh, that one was definitely condescending.  This is a thread for feedback on changes made to the set, but the poster doesn't know what the powers do, or how any of the debuffs work, and what was suggested wasn't feedback, but a request for a set focused on damage output and buffs, and as such, completely out of place in this thread.  I responded accordingly.  I am and will remain unapologetic.

None of what you said is correct, so I don't think you know what you're talking about, but I know I can't change your ideas, so you can either stop flaming everyone in this thread, or I can report your posts.

[brass_eagle]

4 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

@brass_eagle I just can't understand the fact they think Oil Slick = a Blaster Nuke when a blaster nuke is average 250 damage and Oil Slick is 240 damage but only with 75 perfect rolls over 15 seconds, at 1.0x accuracy, in a 7' radius, from a pseudopet's pseudopet that won't take your enhancements into effect.

None of what you said is correct, so I don't think you know what you're talking about, but I know I can't change your ideas, so you can either stop flaming everyone in this thread, or I can report your posts.

I do think it is strange that a blaster nuke that can wipe a close to a whole spawn should have close to or less than the recharge of a gimmick power. It's not Burn. No one is farming.

[summers]

Call me naive but I think this looks like a whole lot of improvements. I've seen a lot of negativity around it but I think the headline advantages are getting a little lost in the static/noise - and there's a lot of static (for example, -maxend and other minor effects that are meaningless except for possible procability).

 

With that positive spin out there, in todays day and age of incarnate content, I think any debuff set is going to struggle for relevancy at 50+, and that means you want to bring -resistance as the key power. Onto the highlights!

 

The headline advantages as I see it are:

 

1) Very fast activation times

2) Much stronger and wider radius effects

 

The best change is:

 

Disruption Arrow does -40% resistance with a 1.32 second cast. For comparison, Tar Patch does -30% resistance with a 3.1 second cast. If you wanted the slow, you can do both Disruption Arrow and Glue Arrow and still be up by about half a second in activation times, and have more and better effects. Yes - you can't stack Disruption Arrows, but I'd take the quick activation in 90% of the content over the stacking in the 10% (which is just an AV fight). For most content I feel I'm racing from spawn to spawn, and this power now delivers up front on a fast recharge for every spawn.

 

For everything else? It's situational, but strong, and I'm okay with that. What more can you say about debuff sets? The meta is against them, but for <50 content this set looks very good.

[brass_eagle]

5 minutes ago, summers said:

Call me naive but I think this looks like a whole lot of improvements. I've seen a lot of negativity around it but I think the headline advantages are getting a little lost in the static/noise - and there's a lot of static (for example, -maxend and other minor effects that are meaningless except for possible procability).

 

With that positive spin out there, in todays day and age of incarnate content, I think any debuff set is going to struggle for relevancy at 50+, and that means you want to bring -resistance as the key power. Onto the highlights!

 

The headline advantages as I see it are:

 

1) Very fast activation times

2) Much stronger and wider radius effects

 

The best change is:

 

Disruption Arrow does -40% resistance with a 1.32 second cast. For comparison, Tar Patch does -30% resistance with a 3.1 second cast. If you wanted the slow, you can do both Disruption Arrow and Glue Arrow and still be up by about half a second in activation times, and have more and better effects. Yes - you can't stack Disruption Arrows, but I'd take the quick activation in 90% of the content over the stacking in the 10% (which is just an AV fight). For most content I feel I'm racing from spawn to spawn, and this power now delivers up front on a fast recharge for every spawn.

 

For everything else? It's situational, but strong, and I'm okay with that. What more can you say about debuff sets? The meta is against them, but for <50 content this set looks very good.

Thanks, @Summers for steering a different way! Lost myself a bit in frustration. But I think you are right. The DeBuffs just aren't up to par for late game. I'm hoping that we can bring attention to this while the set is in the spotlight. During the normal game, those fast cast times are amazing. And should all stay below 1.5s xD

[Luminara]

2 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

I just can't understand the fact they think Oil Slick = a Blaster Nuke when a blaster nuke is average 250 damage and Oil Slick is 240 damage

 

250.2 damage.

 

2 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

but only with 75 perfect rolls over 15 seconds, at 1.0x accuracy

 

OSA applies a 25% Defense debuff.

 

3 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

in a 7' radius

 

25'.

 

4 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

from a pseudopet's pseudopet that won't take your enhancements into effect.

 

All enhancements are accounted for properly in OSA, OSTarget and OSBurn.

 

5 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

None of what you said is correct, so I don't think you know what you're talking about,

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20120904191645/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=122243

 

You were saying?

[Hopestar]

2 minutes ago, summers said:

Disruption Arrow does -40% resistance with a 1.32 second cast. For comparison, Tar Patch does -30% resistance with a 3.1 second cast. If you wanted the slow, you can do both Disruption Arrow and Glue Arrow and still be up by about half a second in activation times, and have more and better effects. Yes - you can't stack Disruption Arrows, but I'd take the quick activation in 90% of the content over the stacking in the 10% (which is just an AV fight). For most content I feel I'm racing from spawn to spawn, and this power now delivers up front on a fast recharge for every spawn.

Do take into account the available level though, in which Tar Patch is level 1 and Disruption Arrow is level 18 for Defender, meaning you can use it in a lot more content, whether it's necessary for that content is another story entirely.

Not quite on topic, but that 10% of content you mention is also when EMP Arrow is actually useful.

[Hopestar]

3 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

250.2 damage.

 

 

OSA applies a 25% Defense debuff.

 

 

25'.

 

 

All enhancements are accounted for properly in OSA, OSTarget and OSBurn.

 

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20120904191645/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=122243

 

You were saying?

My apologies, I was thinking of Acid Arrow for the radius, but the damage is not correct as it has a 0.2 tick rate with a 1.17 cast time. Yes it has a defense debuff, but no, according to my testing enhancements are NOT accounted for properly in burn.

[brass_eagle]

Also following @summersexample, I'm interested to know what people think about the Disruption Arrow's -5 MaxEnd. It seems like a tack-on to me to make it IO viable. This is if it were working (btw). I think it should either be stronger or replaced. Some enemies have 200 or over endurance standard.  I just do not see the value in it other than IOs. If that's what it is. It is what it is.

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, Hopestar said:

according to my testing enhancements are NOT accounted for properly in burn.

 

There are no changes to OSA being made in this beta, and no other indication that @Captain Powerhouse screwed something up and accidentally altered OSA in any way.  Do you have screenshots of the damage numbers, or a combat log to post?  A defender should be seeing roughly 6.5 damage per tick, accounting for enhancements (95% Damage), with no -Res on the targets and no buffs (Aim, Assault) on the caster.

 

3 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

the damage is not correct as it has a 0.2 tick rate with a 1.17 cast time

 

The cast time is for OSA, the power which creates OilSlickOil and summons OilSlickTarget.  OilSlickBurn's tick rate isn't tied to the power's cast time.  OSBurn has no cast time to summon, beyond the 0.132s server tick (Arcanatime), it's spawned as soon as OSTarget is destroyed.  It then ticks off 75 pulses of damage checks (95% hit rate due to the 25% Defense debuff on OSOil), at full enhanced, or buffed (buffs on the caster are transferred to pseudo-pets for whatever duration remains on the buff), value.

 

That's how it works.  The cast time isn't related to pulse timing.