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Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp


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This is a Focused Feedback Thread

  • Please note that Focused Feedback threads are heavily moderated to ensure they remain on topic.
    • Any off-topic posts in these threads will be removed without warning.
    • The thread will be locked when no more feedback is required, but you are more than welcome to continue the discussion in a new thread.
  • The most up-to-date version of the changes will be listed in the first post.
  • The changes in each build will be posted as replies.
    • Most changes from the previous beta build are listed in green.
      • Green text will become white text in the next set of patch notes.
    • Any changes or fixes that are only relevant to the beta builds (ie: fixes / tweaks to new features) are listed in blue.
      • Blue text will be deleted in the next set of patch notes as it is only relevant to highlight changes between beta builds, not a changes from live.
    • Known issues are listed in purple.

 


 

Powerset Revamp: Trick Arrow

Trick Arrow has suffered with performance issues for a long time, primarily due to the strength of the debuffs against higher level enemies, but also due to redundancy between powers in the set. We've made a comprehensive suite of improvements, impacting almost every power in the set.

 

Power Changes (Numbers provided are Defender values)

  • TrickArrow_Immobilize.png.e59211e1622b40a4856847c2cd4eb478.png Entangling Arrow
    • Immobilize duration reduced from scale 15 to scale 7
    • No longer has a -Recharge debuff
    • Now applies a 30s -Res debuff
      • PvP only: This effect is removed
  • TrickArrow_Blind.png.cad97249f539b19437876e6155eafb09.png Flash Arrow
    • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
    • -ToHit increased from -6.25% to -18.76%
      • Half this debuff is now irresistible
  • TrickArrow_Slow.png.b1873252eb2d06593ddfb7699b3e09db.png Glue Arrow
    • -Recharge debuff increased from -20% to -40%
    • Debuff duration increased from 30s to 60s
    • This power is now location based
  • TrickArrow_Hold.png.cb279a1bfaca050187c01db7be51af9a.png Ice Arrow
    • Increased the -Recharge debuff from -12.% to 25%
    • Now applies a 60s -Special and -Damage debuff
      • PvP only: -Heal, -Absorb and -Damage removed, the remaining debuffs only last 10s
  • TrickArrow_DebuffDamage.png.fd7715d340a8c55152ba9d6c4a49f5b9.png Poison Gas Arrow
    • -Damage debuff now lasts 60 seconds
      • PvP only: Debuff only lasts for 3s after you leave the cloud
    • -Damage debuff increased from -31.25% to -50%
      • Half this debuff is now irresistible
  • TrickArrow_DebuffDefense.png Acid Arrow
    • Debuff radius increased from 8ft to 15ft (damage still has an 8ft radius)
    • -Res debuff moved to Disruption Arrow
      • This power still has a -25% defence debuff
    • Now applies a heal resistance debuff (heals on the target will be less effective)
      • PvP only: Debuff halved
    • Now applies a -special resistance debuff (Endurance, ToHit, Regen, Recovery, Recharge Time, and Endurance Discount debuffs against the target will be stronger)
      • PvP only: Reduced to -20%
    • Debuff duration increased from 20s to 45s
      • PvP only: Duration is still 20s
    • This power has a new icon
  • TrickArrow_DebuffDamRes.png.45b6b29aad7c5b6f8cfe72093b9fb205.png Disruption Arrow
    • Target cap increased from 10 to 16
    • Now applies a -MaxEnd debuff and takes Endurance Modification enhancements and sets
    • -Res debuff doubled (moved from Acid Arrow)
    • Only one Disruption Arrow can be maintained at once
    • Recharge decreased from 60s to 30s
    • Duration increased from 30s to 45s
  • TrickArrow_Knockdown.png.690ada140f7c68e5771aaa1923c0f2ce.png Oil Slick Arrow
    • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
  • TrickArrow_Stun.png.0865dc133adc883617d725c771441f58.png EMP Arrow
    • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
    • No longer applies -recovery to the caster
    • Half of the -regen debuff now lasts 45 seconds (previously the entire -regen debuff dropped off after 15 seconds, now only half of it does)
    • Hold duration for non-robots reduced by roughly 50%
    • This power is now location based
    • This power now spawns an EMP Field at the target location that acts similarly to Electrical Affinity's Faraday Cage and provides:
      • 15% damage resistance to all but Toxic (not enhanceable)
      • Resistance against End Drain and Recovery Debuffs
      • Protection against status effects and knock back
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  • Homecoming Team

Build 1 - October 24th, 2020

Spoiler

Powerset Revamp: Trick Arrow

Trick Arrow has suffered with performance issues for a long time, primarily due to the strength of the debuffs against higher level enemies, but also due to redundancy between powers in the set. We've made a comprehensive suite of improvements, impacting almost every power in the set.

 

Power Changes (Numbers provided are Defender values)

  • TrickArrow_Immobilize.png.e59211e1622b40a4856847c2cd4eb478.png Entangling Arrow
    • Immobilize duration reduced from scale 15 to scale 7
    • No longer has a -Recharge debuff
    • Now applies a 30s -Res debuff
  • TrickArrow_Blind.png.cad97249f539b19437876e6155eafb09.png Flash Arrow
    • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
    • -ToHit increased from -6.25% to -15%
      • Half this debuff is now irresistible
  • TrickArrow_Slow.png.b1873252eb2d06593ddfb7699b3e09db.png Glue Arrow
    • -Recharge debuff increased from -20% to -40%
    • Debuff duration increased from 30s to 60s
  • TrickArrow_Hold.png.cb279a1bfaca050187c01db7be51af9a.png Ice Arrow
    • Increased the -Recharge debuff from -12.% to 25%
    • Now applies a 60s -Special and -Damage debuff
  • TrickArrow_DebuffDamage.png.fd7715d340a8c55152ba9d6c4a49f5b9.png Poison Gas Arrow
    • -Damage debuff now lasts 60 seconds
    • -Damage debuff increased from -31.25% to -50%
      • Half this debuff is now irresistible
  • TrickArrow_DebuffDefense.png Acid Arrow
    • Debuff radius increased from 8ft to 15ft (damage still has an 8ft radius)
    • -Res debuff moved to Disruption Arrow
      • This power still has a -25% defence debuff
    • Now applies a -heal resistance debuff (heals on the target will be less effective)
      • Halved in PvP
    • Now applies a -special resistance debuff (Endurance, ToHit, Regen, Recovery, Recharge Time, and Endurance Discount debuffs against the target will be stronger)
    • Debuff duration increased from 20s to 45s
      • 20s in PvP
    • This power has a new icon
  • TrickArrow_DebuffDamRes.png.45b6b29aad7c5b6f8cfe72093b9fb205.png Disruption Arrow
    • Target cap increased from 10 to 16
    • Now applies a -MaxEnd debuff and takes Endurance Modification enhancements and sets
    • -Res debuff doubled (moved from Acid Arrow)
    • Only one Disruption Arrow can be maintained at once
    • Recharge decreased from 60s to 30s
    • Duration increased from 30s to 45s
  • TrickArrow_Knockdown.png.690ada140f7c68e5771aaa1923c0f2ce.png Oil Slick Arrow
    • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
  • TrickArrow_Stun.png.0865dc133adc883617d725c771441f58.png EMP Arrow
    • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
    • No longer applies -recovery to the caster
    • Half of the -regen debuff now lasts 45 seconds (previously the entire -regen debuff dropped off after 15 seconds, now only half of it does)
    • Hold duration for non-robots reduced by roughly 50%
    • This power now adds an ally buff to any ally or pet within the radius of the power (the caster is not affected)
      • 15% damage resistance to all but Toxic (not enhanceable)
      • Resistance against End Drain and Recovery Debuffs
      • Protection against status effects and knock back

 

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3 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Poison Gas Arrow

  • -Damage debuff now lasts 60 seconds
  • -Damage debuff increased from -31.25% to -50%
    • Half this debuff is now irresistible

I'm probably getting this wrong, but isn't there some weird interaction between damage debuffs and resistance debuffs and resistance powers from enemies? Would that irresistible -dam end up messing with, say, archvillains using Unstoppable?

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I'm excited about these changes, especially as it means the higher debuff values might provide a bit more incentive for say a /trick arrow corruptor.  I'm assuming these changes already have some consensus among the Homecoming Team, so I'd propose reshuffling a bit given

 

-PvE enemies very rarely heal each other

-'acid' type powers (see acid mortar, venom grenade, etc) are commonly associated with -res effects

-single target immobs have most often been enhanced with a DoT, rather than some other effect (eg web grenade-> 'toxic' web grenade, entangling arrow -> electrified net arrow)

 

to that end

-I think acid arrow should keep it's -res and treat the heal res as purely a buff, rather than a rework

-move over whatever -res is being considered on entangling arrow to disruptive arrow, since that's its thing

-if entangling arrow needs some love, give it an electrified DoT. People who want to take it over flash arrow do so because they value having an immob, but throwing -res on there makes it a must have for the debuff crowd as well who would have been the most likely to skip it (and ironically will probably now skip acid arrow given it's limited utility other than as a proc attack and holder for -res procs, the thing it will no longer natively offer)

 

Thanks for reading

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8 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

PvE enemies very rarely heal each other

It’s true, Acid Arrow is a bit of a bum power now.

 

8 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

single target immobs have most often been enhanced with a DoT, rather than some other effect (eg web grenade-> 'toxic' web grenade, entangling arrow -> electrified net arrow)

Trick Arrow is a Buff/Debuff set, so adding damage doesn’t help it do what it’s supposed to do.

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I do not understand the change to Acid Arrow, but I think I strongly dislike it. What does it even do now? Defense debuff as before and this new heal thing?

 

I guess technically we are better off but I honestly half the time didnt even fire disruption arrow because its tedious to place (though I do have the macro to place at the target).

 

Yall moved the stuff I like from that power to the one I dont like. I guess I will just have to learn to live with it. Hopefully it will still accept the various defense and acc defense sets.

 

I do like the other changes though. They seem pretty good.

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48 minutes ago, nihilii said:

I'm probably getting this wrong, but isn't there some weird interaction between damage debuffs and resistance debuffs and resistance powers from enemies? Would that irresistible -dam end up messing with, say, archvillains using Unstoppable?

Correct.  Also gonna @Galactiman for this.  So damage resist also resists damage debuffs of the same type.

 

Example: if something increases resistance to Fire damage, it also increases your resistance to fire damage debuffs.

 

Functional example: Tar Patch (-Resist all) amplifies damage debuffs on the affected enemies.

 

On the one hand, half of PGA's debuff cannot get so enhanced since it's flagged to ignore those resistance debuffs.  You can look at the numbers (50% total vs 37.5% or so for Dark Miasma's -DMG debuff) to understand why that's maybe a sane thing for them to do.

 

On the other hand!  This guarantees a very high performance floor against high-resist enemies!  As Nihilii mentioned, there's basically no buff an AV can provide themselves to evade a pretty hefty -DMG resist effect.

 

Additional Notes:

  • Purple Patch is different from IgnoreResist.  An AV being 3 levels above you is still going to reduce the irresistable portion.
  • AVs do not have (to my knowledge) any special resist or resist-resist (lol?).  This isn't a silver bullet that ignores everything that makes AVs special.
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17 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Trick Arrow is a Buff/Debuff set, so adding damage doesn’t help it do what it’s supposed to do.

You're right, which is why I preface my entangling arrow proposal with IF it needs some love.  They could keep the -rech instead to make it equivalent to web grenade from Traps, though.  Gale gets some minor damage in a support t1 and has better mitigation besides.

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2 minutes ago, zenijos10 said:

It seems like there is still no way to ignite oil slick built in to the set- which to me was the most obvious change to make.  Or did I miss it?

That is intentional, as TA is intended to be a buff/debuff set and not a damage set. With the ability to pick your own origin power at the P2W vendor this shouldn't even be a concern.

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14 minutes ago, macskull said:

That is intentional, as TA is intended to be a buff/debuff set and not a damage set. With the ability to pick your own origin power at the P2W vendor this shouldn't even be a concern.

Yes, I see that it is intentional,  I was asking for confirmation.  It seems this simply isn't the change I expected/ hoped for.   I don't think adding an ignite function to one of the other powers would be anywhere near enough to turn this from a debuff/buff set into a damage set.  I also don't agree its not a concern.  Having to light the oil slick with a origin power is a pretty lame solution.  Having the distinction of being the only power (as far as I know), that depending on your primary set requires you to regularly use a trash power to achieve its full function -  even at end game content is a concern to me.  Its like if you had to use brawl to activate the damage portion of dragons tail in Martial Arts.  Regardless, no one is making me play the set, so C'est la vie.

 

Anyhow, I respect all the work and care the development team is putting in.  In this particular case, I think they missed an easy win.   

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1 minute ago, zenijos10 said:

Yes, I see that it is intentional,  I was asking for confirmation.  It seems this simply isn't the change I expected/ hoped for.   I don't think adding an ignite function to one of the other powers would be anywhere near enough to turn this from a debuff/buff set into a damage set.  I also don't agree its not a concern.  Having to light the oil slick with a origin power is a pretty lame solution.  Having the distinction of being the only power (as far as I know), that depending on your primary set requires you to regularly use a trash power to achieve its full function -  even at end game content is a concern to me.  Its like if you had to brawl to activate the damage portion crippling axe kick.  Regardless, no one is making me play the set, so C'est la vie.

 

Anyhow, I respect all the work and care the development team is putting in.  In this particular case, I think they missed an easy win.   

I'm pretty sure that if @Captain Powerhouse were to build Trick Arrow from the ground up, OSA wouldn't exist.

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8 minutes ago, zenijos10 said:

Yes, I see that it is intentional,  I was asking for confirmation.  It seems this simply isn't the change I expected/ hoped for.   I don't think adding an ignite function to one of the other powers would be anywhere near enough to turn this from a debuff/buff set into a damage set.  I also don't agree its not a concern.  Having to light the oil slick with a origin power is a pretty lame solution.  Having the distinction of being the only power (as far as I know), that depending on your primary set requires you to regularly use a trash power to achieve its full function -  even at end game content is a concern to me.  Its like if you had to use brawl to activate the damage portion of dragons tail in Martial Arts.  Regardless, no one is making me play the set, so C'est la vie.

 

Anyhow, I respect all the work and care the development team is putting in.  In this particular case, I think they missed an easy win.   

Powersets interacting is great design IMO. It's much more interesting to have combos that aren't restricted to intra-set interactions and I really hope the devs adds more like OSA.

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Just now, Blackfeather said:

Oh, he does? Sorry for the ping then! But I'm curious, what are their thoughts on it?

 

Similar to mine.  Delighted to see some real improvements, had a few thoughts on different directions it could've gone in, but overall, satisfied with the changes (as of the last reference i can find, anyway.  we're not in direct communication).

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Just now, Luminara said:

Similar to mine.  Delighted to see some real improvements, had a few thoughts on different directions it could've gone in, but overall, satisfied with the changes (as of the last reference i can find, anyway.  we're not in direct communication).

Oh, that's good to hear! It did look like he was looking forward to some improvements to the powerset for sure.

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10 minutes ago, Arcadio said:

Powersets interacting is great design IMO. It's much more interesting to have combos that aren't restricted to intra-set interactions and I really hope the devs adds more like OSA.

Actually, what I'm talking about is powersets NOT interacting.  Having to use the garbage origin power means that OSA does not interact with your primary.

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1 hour ago, PorkTips said:

I do not understand the change to Acid Arrow, but I think I strongly dislike it. What does it even do now?

 

It debuffs debuff resistance across the board.  Defense debuff resistance, healing debuff resistance, endurance debuff resistance, recharge debuff resistance, basically, if it can be resisted, Acid Arrow hits that resistance.  And it still debuffs Defense.

 

1 hour ago, PorkTips said:

Yall moved the stuff I like from that power to the one I dont like.

 

They also added another 20% to Entangling, in addition to moving Acid's 20% over to Disruption.  You're not forced to use Disruption if you don't want to, you can use Entangling.  Or ignore it entirely, up to you.  But the set, as a whole, has 20% more -Res than it did yesterday, and it's still spread out, not focused in a single power.

 

1 hour ago, kidsnowflake said:

The -heal on acid arrow feels pretty pointless in PvE.

 

See the paragraph above.

 

43 minutes ago, zenijos10 said:

It seems like there is still no way to ignite oil slick built in to the set- which to me was the most obvious change to make.  Or did I miss it?

 

OSA's damage output is, and always was, a bonus, a thematically appropriate extra, and everyone with access to OSA also has access to another entire power set, numerous temporary powers and two origin powers which can ignite the slick, as well as the option to team with someone, or multiple someones, who can ignite it, so tacking an Energy or Fire damage component onto another TA power just to ignite the slick was never on the table.  If anything, the only power which would provide the necessary damage type is EMP Arrow, and that has a much longer recharge time than OSA, which would make it even more restrictive to try to use it as an in-set OSA igniter.

 

OSA is fine without an in-set igniter.  And TA is in a much better place than it would be if powers were reworked, and rebalanced, around the concept of using OSA specifically as a damage power, rather than a debuffing power which also happens to deal damage.

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@Jimmyi think one of the biggest features of Acid Arrow is missing from the patch notes. I think its supposed to do a -res(debuff), thus making everyone's debuffs on the target perform stronger.


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1 hour ago, macskull said:

TA is intended to be a buff/debuff set and not a damage set.

And Empathy is a buff set, not a damage set.  Dark is a debuff set, not a damage set.  Repeat for all support/buff and support/debuff.

 

Trick Arrow has 1 gimmick attack, sure its nice but its unreliable if it can't ignite more often.  Even EMP arrow damage is moot, its on a long recharge that sits lonely with the old Blaster nukes recharge in the retirement home.  Even adding all the damage together of every debuff and not counting every tick of Oil Slick, you get numbers rivaling a level 7 blaster.  When you add up the ticks of Oil Slick, then it gets to be nice.

 

Ultimately, a change so that when it ignites would be nice if its unreliable.  Maybe when it catches fire, the damage is front loaded like fireball (not as high, just more damage when it FLASH IGNITES or some special effect) and less damage ticks.

 

6 hours ago, Jimmy said:

TrickArrow_DebuffDefense.png Acid Arrow

  • Debuff radius increased from 8ft to 15ft (damage still has an 8ft radius)
  • -Res debuff moved to Disruption Arrow
  • Now applies a heal resistance debuff (heals on the target will be less effective)
    • Halved in PvP
  • Debuff duration increased from 20s to 45s
    • 20s in PvP
  • This power has a new icon

This power is pretty much skippable now.  If the -res has to go, add something that is not a Heal resistance as someone said there is very little healing in PvE.

 

I like Acid Arrow now, because it isn't limited to

1) Disruption Arrow is a target location pet, the target macro is nice but I like to see the recharge timer in the tray

2) you can use Acid Arrow in one spot and Disruption Arrow in another, basically targeting multiple groups.

 

If it goes through as that suggestion, the power is entirely worthless.  The only way to redeem it is if you add fire damage; "causes a burning sensation" in the description, fire damage is applied, and now Acid Arrow causes Oil Slick to ignite as the chemicals interact.

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