"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Infinitum]

5 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

BTW RE: the difficulty of adjusting the Level Shift mechanics, I think I pulled it off just since I made the comment last night on my private modded game. The Level Shift uses very straightforward Requirements mechanics. I'd just need to be sure to test this on an iTrial to make sure I didn't break something else. 

 

 

 

It involves adding one line of code to each Alpha slot (about 20 lines total, the same line copied and pasted from a modified version of Destiny) and removing a tiny snippet from Lore and Destiny that checks to see if you are in Dark Astoria. BTW yeah, Dark Astoria is literally coded into those powers by name, kinda surprised me.

 

Of course I don't want to turn this into a strangle on the Homecoming team. I think they're brilliant and will decide for themselves what to do even if I hope to convince them. I'd really like them to follow this lead and make this adjustment. There's a reason I had the willpower to change it for myself, its bothered me since the Level Shift ability was released and especially since I realized that awesome scary zone that is Dark Astoria could be reduced to Universe of Lisa Frank just by following normal character progression.

Why cant it be as simple as if you and others dont want to run level shifts - then don't.

 

If I and others do - and enjoy the content that way - why can't you accept that and move on?

 

Even with level shifts Dark Astoria content can be challenging.

 

Out of curiosity are you a creative dmg proc user - seeing as how you seem to like controllers and dominators a great deal?

[Snarky]

39 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Why cant it be as simple as if you and others dont want to run level shifts - then don't.

 

If I and others do - and enjoy the content that way - why can't you accept that and move on?

 

 

So much of life can be reduced from these statements to hard truth. 

 

Do what you want to do.

 

STOP trying to manipulate the world to modify what the F i do.  Leave me the F alone, If I dont like something the way I am doing it maybe I will change.  DO NOT FORCE me to do it your way.  ESPECIALLY if you "believe' it is 'the right thing to do"

 

 

 

[Parabola]

9 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Why cant it be as simple as if you and others dont want to run level shifts - then don't.

 

If I and others do - and enjoy the content that way - why can't you accept that and move on?

 

Even with level shifts Dark Astoria content can be challenging.

I understand this argument but I just don't accept the idea that self gimping is the answer to balance problems. The game gives us tools to use and we should be able to do just that and still have satisfying gameplay.

 

If you enjoy the balance as it is and the level shifts were removed you would have the option to adjust downwards on the difficulty slider to compensate. Unfortunately there is no corresponding option to adjust up any further than +4×8.

 

They could even add more negative levels to the slider if really necessary, I imagine it would be easier than adding higher positive levels due to mobs not existing above lv54. But I find it a bit hard to beleive that anyone is running DA missions (or anything else at lv50) at -1×1 and so wouldn't have anywhere to go if the level shifts were removed.

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, Snarky said:

So much of life can be reduced from these statements to hard truth. 

 

Do what you want to do.

 

STOP trying to manipulate the world to modify what the F i do.  Leave me the F alone, If I dont like something the way I am doing it maybe I will change.  DO NOT FORCE me to do it your way.  ESPECIALLY if you "believe' it is 'the right thing to do"

 

 

 

My personal opinion is the game plays well and diverse as it is right now with a few sets and ATs that need some attention.

 

There is a lot I see complained about bit what it boils down to is you do you and I'll do me there is a few currently popular features that I don't partake in - because I think personally it dillutes how the game plays - thinking about proc monstering specifically.

 

Having said that, I am not on a crusade to get that removed and could care less that it exists or even if friends use it or I pug with it.  Its still fun to me.

 

Some times we team full incarnate -1 with a full team of 8 of those enemy squashing bastards and its fun also - I am more known as mr +4/8 on crazy stuff that some times gets very very interesting because most of it is exotic dmg that can singe the hair on incarnates even.

 

Its all fun and I rarely get complaints aside from the occassional couldya turn it down a notch - and im happy to oblige.

 

Micromanaging the game on an optional feature doesnt make sense to me - because dont like it? Turn it off.

 

Dont ruin it for the ones that like it.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, parabola said:

I understand this argument but I just don't accept the idea that self gimping is the answer to balance problems. The game gives us tools to use and we should be able to do just that and still have satisfying gameplay.

 

If you enjoy the balance as it is and the level shifts were removed you would have the option to adjust downwards on the difficulty slider to compensate. Unfortunately there is no corresponding option to adjust up any further than +4×8.

 

They could even add more negative levels to the slider if really necessary, I imagine it would be easier than adding higher positive levels due to mobs not existing above lv54. But I find it a bit hard to beleive that anyone is running DA missions (or anything else at lv50) at -1×1 and so wouldn't have anywhere to go if the level shifts were removed.

I don't agree with robbing people of something they enjoy when you can solve it from the other side with a right click of the mouse then remove 3 powers from your incarnate tray.

 

Its not a huge inconvenience for 3 right clicks and 3 left clicks.

 

Having said that I am all for exotic enemy difficulty options to stretch the legs on all our incarnate builds some day.

 

Removing options that arent hurting anyone or Any thing - hard pass.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Infinitum

[oedipus_tex]

20 minutes ago, Snarky said:

STOP trying to manipulate the world to modify what the F i do.  Leave me the F alone, If I dont like something the way I am doing it maybe I will change.  DO NOT FORCE me to do it your way.  ESPECIALLY if you "believe' it is 'the right thing to do"

 

 

The game is available on the internet for download by anyone so no one can make you do what you don't like. You can keep the Level Shifts and even mod it so all the enemies talk to you in ALL CAPS FOR EMPHASIS.

We're here to discuss what shared ruleset the Homecoming server should use. It's a multiplayer game so not everyone is going to get their way. That includes me, you, and everyone else here posting. No one is "forcing" anyone to do anything. 

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

The game is available on the internet for download by anyone so no one can make you do what you don't like. You can keep the Level Shifts and even mod it so all the enemies talk to you in ALL CAPS FOR EMPHASIS.

We're here to discuss what shared ruleset the Homecoming server should use. It's a multiplayer game so not everyone is going to get their way. That includes me, you, and everyone else here posting. No one is "forcing" anyone to do anything. 

What you are suggesting can be averted by you unclicking 3 options if you dont like them - rather than changing it for -probably what I would guess the majority enjoys it the way it currently is.

[golstat2003]

15 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

It’s likely a sense of “I earned it so I should always be able to use it”. Honestly, it’s likely easier to make adjustments to future content than it is to anything current, however, I wouldn’t complain if they:

 

1. Dumped the level shifts beyond the Alpha Slot (I could live with no level shifts, however, this is the compromise).

2. Limit Dark Astoria to 50s. The zone is supposed to be a solo path for Incarnate content, not a sidekick golfcart.

To be honest I was always curious why they allowed sub 50s in the zone. If it's incarnate content then keep it as incarnate content.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, golstat2003 said:

To be honest I was always curious why they allowed sub 50s in the zone. If it's incarnate content then keep it as incarnate content.

Yeah wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea - limiters like on Apex Tin Mage already exist - so there is precedent for it.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Which means diff lvls up to +7/x14.

I'd be fine with this as a difficulty option (as I stated earlier)

Edited February 28, 2021 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea - limiters like on Apex Tin Mage already exist - so there is precedent for it.

Yep, if you want to limit DA to 50 only sure. Removing the level shifts in incarnate content. No.

 

Had to make that clear.

[Infinitum]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

Yep, if you want to limit DA to 50 only sure. Removing the level shifts in incarnate content. No.

 

Had to make that clear.

Haha yeah its like 1 zone where its applicable I don't get the fuss over it - and honestly have never noticed any issues with level shifting in DA.

[Parabola]

10 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I don't agree with robbing people of something they enjoy when you can solve it from the other side with a right click of the mouse then remove 3 powers from your incarnate tray.

 

Its not a huge inconvenience for 3 right clicks and 3 left clicks.

 

Having said that I am all for exotic enemy difficulty options to stretch the legs on all our incarnate builds some day.

 

Removing options that arent hurting anyone or Any thing - hard pass.

What would people be robbed of without the level shifts? What would be the difference in running +4×8 with the alpha shift and +3×8 without it? The enemies would all be the same colour.

 

As I say asking us to self balance by removing incarnate powers is asking us to self exclude ourselves from some of what the game has to offer. It's a solution of sorts but not a good one in my opinion.

 

And we are arguing that the level shifts are directly hurting game balance. Clearly that isn't a view shared by everyone but these days what is?!

[Snarky]

Just now, parabola said:

 

As I say asking us to self balance by removing incarnate powers is asking us to self exclude ourselves from some of what the game has to offer. It's a solution of sorts but not a good one in my opinion.

 

 

So your solution is to hard code an exclusion we cannot get around that will affect everyone negatively who does not share your opinion?  Really?  It hurts to try to follow the logic.  Like watching stressed out commuters drive on crowded freeways.  Never know who they are going to try to kill next.

[Parabola]

1 minute ago, Snarky said:

So your solution is to hard code an exclusion we cannot get around that will affect everyone negatively who does not share your opinion?  Really?  It hurts to try to follow the logic.  Like watching stressed out commuters drive on crowded freeways.  Never know who they are going to try to kill next.

It strikes me that there might be a fundamental 'how we see the world differently' thing at play in these discussions. I find myself just as confused by the arguments given against trying to alter game balance when the desire is only to improve the teaming experience in what is still an mmo.

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, parabola said:

What would people be robbed of without the level shifts? What would be the difference in running +4×8 with the alpha shift and +3×8 without it? The enemies would all be the same colour.

 

As I say asking us to self balance by removing incarnate powers is asking us to self exclude ourselves from some of what the game has to offer. It's a solution of sorts but not a good one in my opinion.

 

And we are arguing that the level shifts are directly hurting game balance. Clearly that isn't a view shared by everyone but these days what is?!

It's literally 1 zone, a few high level task forces, and several incarnate trials that were all designed with them in mind specifically.

 

If you don't like the level shifts remove them - if it were so difficult i would sympathise and understand your premise better, but it's very simple to unslot Incarnates - literally 6 clicks.

 

And I really don't think you are referring to balance - because again - this content was designed around it for your character to gain both power strength to face the ultimate enemy.

 

Taking that away for me is robbing the storyline.

[Haijinx]

49 minutes ago, Snarky said:

So much of life can be reduced from these statements to hard truth. 

 

Do what you want to do.

 

STOP trying to manipulate the world to modify what the F i do.  Leave me the F alone, If I dont like something the way I am doing it maybe I will change.  DO NOT FORCE me to do it your way.  ESPECIALLY if you "believe' it is 'the right thing to do"

 

 

 

Look at it from the other side though

 

There is only the over power creeped world the moar easies have endorsed.  The only actual "manipulation" has been in that direction. 

 

No one has changed ANYTHING to be harder for anyone.  Some have just suggested it probably should be. 

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, parabola said:

It strikes me that there might be a fundamental 'how we see the world differently' thing at play in these discussions. I find myself just as confused by the arguments given against trying to alter game balance when the desire is only to improve the teaming experience in what is still an mmo.

the teaming experience IMO is fine - literally 100% of the time I play - and I only miss a night playing when I'm deathly ill or I'm getting luckier than playing COH because its a date night and my mother in law is keeping our kids.

 

I just don't see the argument that DA is broken - and I team with a variety of people from long time friends to PUGS.

 

Never had any issues or pauses from DA content being broken due to level sgifts, and like I said if something is too hard for my team - I turn it down.

 

I think honestly in a lot of cases what trivializes content more than Incarnates - is excessive dmg proc usage - again I don't care that it exists - but it does muddy the capabilities and roles of every AT to just loads of outpouring dmg.

 

I build my tankers strong - but they won't outdmg the other classes aside from maybe controllers.

 

I build my controllers to lockdown from a distance and survive any potential stragglers - thats what they do but They wont win any races in obliterating mobs.

 

To judge 1 zone by features that was designed for it seems off to me when the ability to gain the challenge you are seeking is as simple as 6 clicks - then it doesn't affect anyone else that likes those features.

[Infinitum]

8 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Look at it from the other side though

 

There is only the over power creeped world the moar easies have endorsed.  The only actual "manipulation" has been in that direction. 

 

No one has changed ANYTHING to be harder for anyone.  Some have just suggested it probably should be. 

No, your point is off - this isnt about being easier or harder - but just enjoyment of a game feature - there is no manipulation here.

 

Like I said its 6 clicks to make it harder if you want it that way.

[Haijinx]

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

No, your point is off - this isnt about being easier or harder - but just enjoyment of a game feature - there is no manipulation here.

 

Like I said its 6 clicks to make it harder if you want it that way.

I didn't bring the term into the conversation.

[Parabola]

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

It's literally 1 zone, a few high level task forces, and several incarnate trials that were all designed with them in mind specifically.

 

If you don't like the level shifts remove them - if it were so difficult i would sympathise and understand your premise better, but it's very simple to unslot Incarnates - literally 6 clicks.

 

And I really don't think you are referring to balance - because again - this content was designed around it for your character to gain both power strength to face the ultimate enemy.

 

Taking that away for me is robbing the storyline.

We're clearly not going to agree on this. I just want to clarify though that I'm also talking about the alpha shift affecting all lv50 content. In many respects I see that as being a greater balance problem than the three shifts that can affect actual incarnate content. But as a whole I cannot see how the level shifts benefit the game inside incarnate content or otherwise.

[Snarky]

18 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Look at it from the other side though

 

There is only the over power creeped world the moar easies have endorsed.  The only actual "manipulation" has been in that direction. 

 

No one has changed ANYTHING to be harder for anyone.  Some have just suggested it probably should be. 

Isn't the latest discussion about hardcoding no level shifts for Lore and Destiny in DA?  ahem.  that would (from most individuals standpoints) make something harder.  Did I miss something?

[oedipus_tex]

I confess the argument that no power is actually overpowered, because you can always just not click or use it, leaves me without a response.

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I confess the argument that no power is actually overpowered, because you can always just not click or use it, leaves me without a response.

That would be funny if thats what your argument is - but it isn't.

 

Your argument is You have a problem with level shifts in dark Astoria - if that is your problem - you can disable that VERY very easily. In doing so wouldn't affect the rest of us that do like them, and have no issues with it.

 

Otherwise you aren't demonstrating why its such a problem that the solution for your stance to just disable it isnt a valid one - when it should be acceptable when you are talking about one zone where thematically it was designed for that feature.

[EmperorSteele]

The issue with "Don't use it" doesn't actually address the issue, though.

The complaint that "the game is to easy." ends there. It does NOT necessarily have an implicit "for me" at the end. If it did, then yes, removing your level shifts and reducing your character's power would be an effective way of regaining some sense of challenge.... EXCEPT if you get on a team and suddenly everyone ELSE is judgmenting spawns before you can get an attack off. And they're all taking hits that would kill you, and avoiding attacks that you can't; or maybe someone ELSE hit you with their barrier and you're safe as a house anyway, despite having removed your own incarnate power.

Now, if you wanted to get a bunch of people together and do a non-incarnate, SO's only run of some things? Sure, go for it, but at this point, most people would have to build for that first, because let's face it, this game is a power fantasy, and very few people are going to purposefully avoid all IOs and the incarnate system. Any who do probably do so because the systems seem too complicated or daunting, not because they don't want to improve their character. Though I'm sure there's a handful of those folks, as well, but they are in the minority of a minority.

In any case, we don't need to purposefully weaken our characters, we just need more content befitting characters of that power-level. But, that's complicated and takes time to do.