"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Haijinx]

8 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

I still think Homecoming has some brilliant designers and they've shown at least a partial willingness to review old systems. I agree though that overall interest has waned a lot. I used to be a team player, just don't enjoy it with the way things work right now. I can solo of course, but would rather do it on a private server where I can adjust mechanics to my liking and no one can type back in all caps.

If they were to tweak the game mechanics, they would run the risk people would just go to another COH server.  

 

That's kind of the downside to not having a monopoly on the MMO you are tweaking.  

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Just curious, but if you are a superhero fan, I imagine you are a Superman fan?  Thor?  Etc.  

 

Me.  I prefer the gritty street level stuff that is set in Gotham.   Generally not the main title Batman stuff though, since he too is too much of a boring invincible sue.  The off title Batman stuff though I like.   

 

I'm not against powered heroes.  But I want Superheroes that can LOSE.  That struggle against unimaginable odds.  The under dog.   The scrappy kid that is struggling to do something because Captain Super Amazing and his Superbros didn't understand the danger.   And so forth.  

Try a +4/8 Pandoras Box kill all then.

 

You won't find much radio content or street sweeping unless you lockout some of your powers though - maybe radio missions need some kind of revamp too - I cant tell you the last time I ran a radio mission though.

 

Theres stuff that can make you lose.

 

What you are describing is more being familiar than overpowered.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Try a +4/8 Pandoras Box kill all then.

 

You won't find much radio content or street sweeping unless you lockout some of your powers though - maybe radio missions need some kind of revamp too - I cant tell you the last time I ran a radio mission though.

 

Theres stuff that can make you lose.

 

What you are describing is more being familiar than overpowered.

I'm not asking you to solve the problem for me.

 

I'm trying to understand the motivation behind wanting the game to be this easy.  And how its tied to how people like being "Super"    

 

Many people say its because its a Super Hero game.  You seem to be in that camp.  So I was wondering what Super Hero comics you mean, because the ones where Super Amazing Guy can't lose are my least favorite comics.    

 

I fully understand that Homecoming has no choice but to ride this power crept game mechanics nightmare down the road it is on.  So I actually expect the problem will not get solved.  I will eventually just stop logging in at all, and I'll find something else to do.   If that's how it is that's fine.   But maybe if I understood why people prefer it that way I'd be cooler with it.  

[Apparition]

FWIW, Superman is my favorite super-hero.  Has been since I was probably two years old?  Maybe three.  I remember watching the old Adventures of Superman television show and saw Superman II in the movie theater.  I was hooked.  I believed a man could fly.  That's why every single character of mine has Fly, Afterburner, and either Speed of Sound or Super Speed.  I collected all of the various Superman comic books since the John Byrne reboot in 1986 through about 2013 when I just stopped reading DC Comics.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

I still think Homecoming has some brilliant designers and they've shown at least a partial willingness to review old systems. I agree though that overall interest has waned a lot. I used to be a team player, just don't enjoy it with the way things work right now. I can solo of course, but would rather do it on a private server where I can adjust mechanics to my liking and no one can type back in all caps.

That's the brilliant thing now. There can be an infinite number of COH.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Just curious, but if you are a superhero fan, I imagine you are a Superman fan?  Thor?  Etc.  

 

Me.  I prefer the gritty street level stuff that is set in Gotham.   Generally not the main title Batman stuff though, since he too is too much of a boring invincible sue.  The off title Batman stuff though I like.   

 

I'm not against powered heroes.  But I want Superheroes that can LOSE.  That struggle against unimaginable odds.  The under dog.   The scrappy kid that is struggling to do something because Captain Super Amazing and his Superbros didn't understand the danger.   And so forth.  

As a kid I liked Superman, The X-Men, The Avengers. The Justice League.

 

Guys who had actual superpowered threats. I think the disconnect in this thread is spot on with your post of where people are.

 

What is a superhero to some folks? I'm sure we would get an epic amount of different responses.

 

To me Batman is interesting because of the various psychiotic enemies he faces. Not that he is a gritty street level guy. Daredevil is interesting because of the insanity of the Hand and their ability to bring people back from the dead and the "monster" the worshipped at one point, and his super senses. Not cause he fights in Hell's Kitchen.

 

I like my superheroes fantastical.

 

I don't find comics where they are fighting a bunch of lacky thugs and struggling all that interesting. /shrug.

Edited March 1, 2021 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

I'm not asking you to solve the problem for me.

 

I'm trying to understand the motivation behind wanting the game to be this easy.  And how its tied to how people like being "Super"    

 

Many people say its because its a Super Hero game.  You seem to be in that camp.  So I was wondering what Super Hero comics you mean, because the ones where Super Amazing Guy can't lose are my least favorite comics.    

 

I fully understand that Homecoming has no choice but to ride this power crept game mechanics nightmare down the road it is on.  So I actually expect the problem will not get solved.  I will eventually just stop logging in at all, and I'll find something else to do.   If that's how it is that's fine.   But maybe if I understood why people prefer it that way I'd be cooler with it.  

Superman, The X-Men, etc lost all the time in one way or another. So did Daredevil, so did Batman (hell Batman nearly lost everything in 2020 due to the Joker).

 

Not losing doesn't have anything to do with it with my love of heroes.

 

People prefer to play COH as casual, not serious. If they wanted serious difficulty there are plenty of games that have that.

 

Folks like the idea of just joining a team of any 8 and steam rolling stuff. That's always been the case.

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by golstat2003

[Haijinx]

11 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

That's the brilliant thing now. There can be an infinite number of COH.

will be hard to find a team if you spread the playerbase among 1000 COH's 

[golstat2003]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

will be hard to find a team if you spread the playerbase among 1000 COH's 

You assume many folks would care.

 

I have a version of COH downloaded to every computer I own currently. If NCSoft ever gets crazy, I'll still be able to play COH.

 

If I could list 100 reasons why I stuck with my love of this game in the last decade, it being an mmo would be number 100. Dead last.

 

EDIT: If COH had been released as a single player game, I would still be playing it today, and would find ways to play it in a VM when Windows no longer supported it. One of the servers, I play on I ONLY solo 100% of the time. When I don't want to deal with the nonsense of other folks I'm there playing. I've been actually playing there quite a bit that last few months.

Edited March 1, 2021 by golstat2003

[Snarky]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

With regards to others effecting your game experience, this is 100% a thing in this MMO. We have had several examples in this thread talking about different levels of being "left in the dust" by just general teaming, to the point of many feeling like they're just doorsitting. 

 

It should be assumed that the basic gameplay should be using the tools given to us when able. Actively choosing NOT to use said tools is going against the basics of the game and should not be a "viable" solution.

I just 50d a new Energy/Will Brute.  I Incarnated and T3d it (Alpha, Judgement, Interface only) with a few hours work and some e-mailed Emps.  I jumped in an ITF to open Lore and Destiny.  7/8 of us were relatively new 50s, 1-8 vet levels, one was a pre-50.  We did a kill most.  No one was 'left in the dust"  It was on +4.  It was not super fast, but it was fast.  We tended to have 'team spread' and clumps of us never quite working the exact same area.  If all 8 of us teamed, yeah everything died fast.  Mostly we just ran through it like kids at Disneyland.  No talking, just do what you want.  I surgeon hunt in ITFs, as a matter of habit.  I was the only "heavy" melee, no other Brute or tank.  I did not try to tank.  I killed surgeons, herded when it looked convenient. Yet no one was "left in the dust."

 

I say all this because some of the posts keep talking about how power creep has ruined the game.

 

Ahem.  I have run ITF on live with non incarnate 50s and comps that turned the valley into a slide show.  I had a lot more fun on this run.  7/8 of us were 50+1, the mobs were 54, we had EBs that took effort to put down.  Strategy was needed.  

 

Why (in a thread devoted to I/Os???) is it necessary to start campaigning for removing incarnate level shifts?  Is it honestly just trolling?  The game has not changed that much since live.  We had incarnates then.  They worked 99% same.  We had I/Os on live.  Some of you may remember.  I think we had them for a good few months before shutdown.  *cough.  designing a super from the ground up, levelling, and running the "Super' is the goal of the game.  If you want to go to a classic game where you hunt for a rusty sword and a fish monster eats your face for the first ten levels those exist.  This is a Super game.  All the story arcs about magic and technological devices and Excelsior type drugs and incarnate wells....we actually interact with all that.  Like, our characters get to use that stuff.  And it has effects on how strong they are.  

 

Super powered game.  Just saying.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

That isn't so much caused by level shifts though, but more knowingly teaming with greater powered team mates - to which either switch characters or switch teams - either way it's not something I encounter resistance from when I team and a lot of the times I run max diff stuff.

 

But the end result stems from either knowingly doorsitting and being ok with it or not knowing what you were getting into and wanting the game to change based on that - which isnt really fair to the ones you were teamed with when you have the option to leave that team - or develop your character to be better - which has been proven to not be difficult at all in this game.

 

If its the other swing of the content seeming too easy - then build a sg of like minded people.

 

Theres plenty of options - but to remove something what I percieve to be the majority enjoys based on my experiences - doesnt seem right, or fair.

 

What I meant is that purposefully taking away from what the game leads you toward in any way is not a true solution. It'd be like playing Mario Sunshine without the Flood Backpack as much as possible. You can certainly do it, and it is making it harder for yourself, but it is not intended for you to do this.

 

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

What I meant is that purposefully taking away from what the game leads you toward in any way is not a true solution. It'd be like playing Mario Sunshine without the Flood Backpack as much as possible. You can certainly do it, and it is making it harder for yourself, but it is not intended for you to do this.

 

Right and the game if it had been completed purposefully lead you to be +3 by the time you left the zone for the next set of incarnate challenges . . . which the devs never go to unfortunately.

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Like, our characters get to use that stuff.  And it has effects on how strong they are.  

 

Super powered game.  Just saying.

Generally they avoid pitting Superman against say  ...  Jimmie Olson though    (Spin Doctors tunes non-withstanding)

 

The Bad guys are still playing in the no IO's no Incarnates world.   Something that should be adjusted.   At least on say .. Max Difficulty. 

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Generally they avoid pitting Superman against say  ...  Jimmie Olson though    (Spin Doctors tunes non-withstanding)

 

The Bad guys are still playing in the no IO's no Incarnates world.   Something that should be adjusted.   At least on say .. Max Difficulty. 

Hmmm I would not mind a new difficulty where some mobs can get level shifted. Or have some mobs that use Destiny or Judgement themselves. 🙂 

[Haijinx]

15 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

You assume many folks would care.

 

I have a version of COH downloaded to every computer I own currently. If NCSoft ever gets crazy, I'll still be able to play COH.

 

If I could list 100 reasons why I stuck with my love of this game in the last decade, it being an mmo would be number 100. Dead last.

I think a lot of us play to play on teams.  

 

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

What I meant is that purposefully taking away from what the game leads you toward in any way is not a true solution. It'd be like playing Mario Sunshine without the Flood Backpack as much as possible. You can certainly do it, and it is making it harder for yourself, but it is not intended for you to do this.

 

oh, yeah i get that part - but i am seeing it as the exception not the rule of the number of people that view this as a legitimate issue - this is literally the first i have ever heard anyone take issue with dark astoria content.

 

I mingle with the game playerbase every night - and that never comes up - i think the reason it comes up here is like i said earlier - veterans and knowing every corner to take before it comes to the corner.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Hmmm I would not mind a new difficulty where some mobs can get level shifted. Or have some mobs that use Destiny or Judgement themselves. 🙂 

thats the direction we need to head towards IMO

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Generally they avoid pitting Superman against say  ...  Jimmie Olson though    (Spin Doctors tunes non-withstanding)

 

The Bad guys are still playing in the no IO's no Incarnates world.   Something that should be adjusted.   At least on say .. Max Difficulty. 

or a new difficulty option

[Haijinx]

Just now, Infinitum said:

or a new difficulty option

And then again, 

 

Why would people PLAY this difficulty option?  

 

You all are basically like broken records.

 

It should be in the NORMAL MAX DIFFICULTY option.   Not some crazy TF limitations setting option.  

[golstat2003]

7 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

And then again, 

 

Why would people PLAY this difficulty option?  

 

You all are basically like broken records.

 

It should be in the NORMAL MAX DIFFICULTY option.   Not some crazy TF limitations setting option.  

Who said anything about TF limitations?

 

I mean a new difficulty options. You'd play it because you'd get more rewards . . . and cause . . . fun?

 

Fun as in you'd see new effects on mobs, something the game is sorely lacking also.

 

EDIT: I thought I saw multiple people already imply they would not play the increased difficulty (even if you added it to the current max difficulty) unless more rewards were given. So I've been assuming any talk of more difficulty would mean they also want it to be more rewarding. I didn't think this was a question at this point. 

 

Or did I misread some folks?

Edited March 1, 2021 by golstat2003

[Snarky]

14 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Hmmm I would not mind a new difficulty where some mobs can get level shifted. Or have some mobs that use Destiny or Judgement themselves. 🙂 

Aside from all new content like Incarnate Trials...you know what threw me for a spin, and still does?  when they redid Freakshow with Superstunners!  Rather than have a bunch of randomly applied Judgements land on teams (creating various Battle Maiden type battles where certain ATs shine and others cringe...) a few surgically sprinkled mobs that need to be dealt with correctly has always beed the hardest parts of this game.  Whether it be LB, CoT, Freaks, or Malta.  It is rarely the raw damage that gets you.  You approach each new group with respect.  The entire run I just did on the ITF I carefully destroyed the Surgeons first thing.  That level of complication is so much more difficult than creating a locked in environment with uber mechanics that slay teams that do not have the perfect Shields/Taunt/Dance left/Swipe right setup.  It allows PUGs to just organically form.  And have fun.

[Infinitum]

51 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

And then again, 

 

Why would people PLAY this difficulty option?  

 

You all are basically like broken records.

 

It should be in the NORMAL MAX DIFFICULTY option.   Not some crazy TF limitations setting option.  

because it would include stuff like Quants with incarnate negating powers - stuff like that - that would make you rethink the content you have ran thousands of times to give you pause before rounding that corner.

 

You said you wanted fear again - that and things like it would do it.

 

we dont need to reinvent the wheel - just give it better tires.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Infinitum

[Haijinx]

57 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

 

EDIT: I thought I saw multiple people already imply they would not play the increased difficulty (even if you added it to the current max difficulty) unless more rewards were given. So I've been assuming any talk of more difficulty would mean they also want it to be more rewarding. I didn't think this was a question at this point. 

 

 

I'd play it for standard rewards - or even less rewards, but as I said the game is about teams.  At least to me.  

 

And so you'd want teams to go.  Lets play on .. whatever difficulty.   And to do that most are going to want incentives

 

Because a lot of people like smooshing wimpy opposition.  Probably like to TGM in console commands too.  

[Parabola]

It seems pretty clear to me that we have broadly speaking two camps of players. Those that are happy with the current balance seem to be either more focused on soloing or looking at the game as a superhero power fantasy (or both). Those that are unhappy with it seem to be focused on teaming or looking at the game as a system in mechanical rather than narrative terms (again or both). I am of course generalizing, I'm sure there are dedicated team players who don't see any issues and soloists who do etc.

 

I think both sides have to accept at this stage that the opinions of the other have been raised often and vocally enough that they aren't likely to simply change or go away. Those that are currently happy see any balance changes as nerfs that will take something away from them and that the game will suffer as a result, perhaps by their leaving. Those that are unhappy see balance changes as completely necessary because the teaming game isn't working properly (at high lv's) and the game is suffering as a result, and they also may leave if nothing is done.

 

This is clearly a difficult issue for the devs to address. They have announced that they are at least looking into this kind of stuff which suggests they do see some issues worthy of investigation. Whether they can find solutions that please everyone remains to be seen.

 

One idea that I brought up ages ago was to introduce enemy buffs that scale based on level and the number of people in the team (actual people not slider settings). The idea being that solo the game wouldn't change at all, and also teaming below some threshold level also wouldn't change. But above the threshold enemies would start to get buffed a bit with more people in the team. The rewards could be buffed too if that was needed. The scaling could also take into account level shifts so if there are incarnates in the team the enemies get a bit of extra juice. The difficulty slider would always be available to tone down the +lv if required.

 

This isn't a fully fleshed out idea but I think the important thing is that it tries to acknowledge the problems of the different ways we all see the game. Soloists would be totally unaffected, absolutely nothing would change for them. And teams would find the game gradually pushing back a bit harder at the high end without having to remove things like level shifts or any changes to IO's or procs etc. I'm not saying this is the answer but it might be the kind of direction we should be thinking in to try to keep as many people happy as possible.

 

Currently I play the game a lot. Too much in fact! But I mostly solo, sometimes for the convenience which is fine but much of the time it is because teaming isn't appealing to me at high levels and that isn't fine at all. I highly value being able to solo in this game but my unshakable belief is that the team game should be the foundation of the coh experience. If that isn't working properly then something seems very wrong indeed.

[Grouchybeast]

10 hours ago, Apparition said:

Dark Astoria was simply not meant to be challenging to veteran Incarnate players.  It just wasn’t.  It wasn’t meant for full teams either.  It was essentially meant as training wheels for Incarnate trials.  That is where the challenge is supposed to be.

And a sort of tacked-on afterthought of a set of training wheels at that, reluctantly provided to offer a limited solo path to shut up the complaints.

 

"Hey, guys, we took a historically extremely solo-friendly MMO and added a grindy end-game that required endless repetitive teaming.  This is the greatest idea ever!  Guys?  Guys?  Why are you so mad at us?"