"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Snarky]

Yes, Dark Astoria was added because of the trial grinds.  I remember back in the day my comp couldnt handle half the Lambda map.  How was I supposed to get incarnate components?  I was so grateful for Dark Astoria.  

 

I love to team.  Task Forces are a hoot for me.  I solo story arcs sometimes, but I love knocking out a Task Force run.  I guess some people are saying late game teaming is 'broken'...   I have not seen this.  I play a LOT at 50 on PUG teams.  Task Forces, Incarnate trials, jumping into random farms as a hitter, Strike Forces, 50 teams running content to help lowbies level.  I exclusively PUG.  I do not lead, I just join whatever.  I see mostly smooth running teams.

 

Maybe that is where the issue is.  On non-pug custom built incarnate  teams that take on things like Dark Astoria that were designed for soloing they just knock it out too fast?  Would be similar if we took a League of veteran incarnates into the ITF.  People would start screaming about raising the difficulty....

 

I will join ANY team doing content I am looking for with the toon I am on (for badges merits, incarnate exp, components, whatever)  I just do not see this giant issue with late game teams having a problem.  Is this because every bit of team content is not like Cathedral of Pain complicated?  or Battle Maiden fight slanted against a class of players?  Or just generally does there need to be extreme buffing on enemies (because Cyclops arent a pain already) and random nukes to take out our squishies?  

 

I honestly do not see the point besides "make it extremely harder", especially stuff that was not designed for the team I am taking in there.  Redesign that.  

Edited March 1, 2021 by Snarky

[Apparition]

Perhaps gate Dark Astoria to level 50, and lower the maximum team size to four, while still keeping the ability to size the spawns to x8.  That way it would still fulfill its mission of being a solo path to Incarnate abilities and being a training wheel for Incarnate trials.

[Bill Z Bubba]

43 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Perhaps gate Dark Astoria to level 50, and lower the maximum team size to four, while still keeping the ability to size the spawns to x8.  That way it would still fulfill its mission of being a solo path to Incarnate abilities and being a training wheel for Incarnate trials.

... cuz the incarnate trials are so intricate and difficult? Hmmm.

 

To the point, no thanks. I like being able to use DA for PLing alts when I get tired of AE.

[Linea]

If you want to preview what it would be like to face +4x8 ALL-EB INCARNATE spawns, 801.9 is live and is at least twice as hard as 801.5.  I'll add an easier and shorter .7 and .8 later.  Given testing so far I think it would be a very very rare team that would use that setting.  But I would still like having the various options.

[oedipus_tex]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

I will join ANY team doing content I am looking for with the toon I am on (for badges merits, incarnate exp, components, whatever)  I just do not see this giant issue with late game teams having a problem.  Is this because every bit of team content is not like Cathedral of Pain complicated?  or Battle Maiden fight slanted against a class of players?  Or just generally does there need to be extreme buffing on enemies (because Cyclops arent a pain already) and random nukes to take out our squishies?  

 

 

Does fighting +4 enemies as actual +4s instead of +1s or +3s normally result in them operating like a Cath of Pain or launching nukes? Asking because what are you talking about.

Edited March 1, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

... cuz the incarnate trials are so intricate and difficult? Hmmm.

 

To the point, no thanks. I like being able to use DA for PLing alts when I get tired of AE.

I think what you are saying there is the perceived issue with the content.

 

It has to do with the majority of us being several thousand vet levels across many characters - if not more.

 

Storybook mode is getting harder and harder to do because I know what the next page holds.

 

It's a thrill to find something new or rediscover something I forgot.

 

So how or why do I keep coming back?

 

Because each new hero I make - I usually power level also - has to write their own story.  I usually take one through maria Jenkins, then another through dark Astoria, then another through task forces, then another through trials etc

 

And I'm teaming all the way - that is more fun than solo for me even if the path is sometimes easier.  

 

But IMO being veterans - just arbitrarily changing mechanics without new content won't make anything better - but I would believe worse because now you have grindy - stale content - that makes you feel less super.

 

I think the solution lies with adding a difficulty option not changing the mechanics on the current system - that adds depth to the missions we currently have - especially end game content.

 

For instance the code already exists in the Magi Trial that negates incarnate shifts.  Develop a new quant like character or faction along with others that has that incarnate negates and also others that perhaps can only be defeated easily once stunned, or controlled, and maybe another that can output dmg like battle maiden has in the apex - that once you select the (call it for now the incarnate difficulty option) spawns start randomly adding that faction to a spawn - and that would add variety that would make you think twice before running ahead zerging.

 

That I think is the path forward that could make the most peopke happy - because:

1. We get to really test our fancy builds under stress

2. The current system remains in place to make that group happy

3. It will revitalize old content with new exotic threats for those that want it.

 

Well that's my thoughts on it, I don't see teaming as the issue - just repetition.

[Bill Z Bubba]

26 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

1. We get to really test our fancy builds under stress

I waltzed my tank into @Linea's 802.5 AE mission at max diff. Hit rebirth, shield charged into the first spawn, hit whirling hands, ETed the biggest boss in the face and promptly faceplanted.

 

The ability to create really nasty critters and missions is available and I, too, would like to see more of it utilized across the board.

[oedipus_tex]

43 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

But IMO being veterans - just arbitrarily changing mechanics without new content won't make anything better - but I would believe worse because now you have grindy - stale content - that makes you feel less super.

I am trying to understand because some people feel really passionate about this. But, I don't get what "feel less super" means. The difficulty is adjustable. If you were fighting at 50+4, you change to that to 50+3 so you are still fighting +3 enemies. This is exactly what you did before Level Shifts. It's level difference that matters, not absolute rank. The only thing that is affected by that change is street sweeping at level 50. If that is really a big deal, you can suggest making the level shift apply when outside. You can't adjust iTrials so the level shift still works there.

If on the other hand it "makes players feel less super" just to know there is a +4 difficulty that exists but they are "only" running on +3 and that makes them feel inferior somehow, then IMO that's not an issue that's resolvable. 

More than anything I think this conversation is underserved when it is pushed to hyperbole. The game was built on a -1 to +4 scale. Players still use the scale from levels 1 to 49. That scale was used for level 50 players the majority of the game's life. At some stage it was decided to shift the level 50 game to a -2 to +3 scale for players who paid for a subscription while free players stuck to -1 to +4. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Galaxy Brain]

I think the fact that we have a ton of veteran players is a big factor. Combine that with the ease of access to lvl 50, to IO's, Incarnates, and they all mix together to make CoH quite breezy at times even when running the hard stuff. Hell, the last time I remember really eating dirt with my non-softcapped blaster was on a MLTF with Infinitum due to every bane spider in existence coalescing in one room! If it were a normal encounter with a normal amount of enemies it'd be a breeze. 

 

Something that @Infinitum and I have talked about though is that there definitely needs to be something new for us to chew on, and luckily we have the perfect place: The Shadow Shard

 

Not only is this a criminally underused area of the game, but it includes a built-in means to have "Special Enemies" with the Reflections (https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Shadow_Shard_Reflections). Lore wise, the Shadow Shard has mirrored versions of a ton of existing enemy groups, given that this is a place of Dreams then it could feature remixed enemies that could expand to different tiers if we want:

 

Reflection - basically a slightly tougher version of X enemy group. I would definitely allow low level enemies to reappear as lvl 50+ versions as reflections!

Dream - one step up, granted new powers and abilities

Nightmare - final step, totally bonkers abilities fitting their theme (Freakshow with a full suite of elec and claws powers, etc)

 

We could fit it in as even Radio-Style missions in the shards where defeating these Reflections somehow weakens Rularuu, and like how every X radio missions gets you a safeguard, every X Dream-Missions grant you a shot at a thematic Shadow Shard encounter. 

 

On top of all that, basic Rularuu enemies are able to tear whole teams a new one lol. 

 

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I am trying to understand because some people feel really passionate about this. But, I don't get what "feel less super" means. The difficulty is adjustable. If you were fighting at 50+4, you change to that to 50+3 so you are still fighting +3 enemies. This is exactly what you did before Level Shifts. It's level difference that matters, not absolute rank. The only thing that is affected by that change is street sweeping at level 50. If that is really a big deal, you can suggest making the level shift apply when outside. You can't adjust iTrials so the level shift still works there.

If on the other hand it "makes players feel less super" just to know there is a +4 difficulty that exists but they are "only" running on +3 and that makes them feel inferior somehow, then IMO that's not an issue that's resolvable. 

More than anything I think this conversation is underserved when it is pushed to hyperbole. The game was built on a -1 to +4 scale. Players still use the scale from levels 1 to 49. That scale was used for level 50 players the majority of the game's life. At some stage it was decided to shift the level 50 game to a -2 to +3 scale for players who paid for a subscription while free players stuck to -1 to +4. 

You only cut a snippet of what I said - you have to add the rest for context - what you are suggesting introduces a grind - because there is content that is difficult even as low as even or +2 depending on your team make up or other scenarios.

 

If You read what I'm suggesting - its adding spice to whats already there - creating a variable scenario to make meta teams think twice and slow them down at certain points through uncertainty.

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Hell, the last time I remember really eating dirt with my non-softcapped blaster was on a MLTF with Infinitum due to every bane spider in existence coalescing in one room! 

But how fun was that?  lol. That gave me a run for my money that night too and I was decked out on my tanker - there was just.... So... Many.   lol

 

I have a knack for rooting out odd scenarios like that and its always fun.

 

I would love it if stuff like that happened more regularly but randomly also.

[oedipus_tex]

19 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

You only cut a snippet of what I said - you have to add the rest for context - what you are suggesting introduces a grind - because there is content that is difficult even as low as even or +2 depending on your team make up or other scenarios.

 

If You read what I'm suggesting - its adding spice to whats already there - creating a variable scenario to make meta teams think twice and slow them down at certain points through uncertainty.

 

 

Sorry, I don't mean to misrepresent your comment. I usually just include just a portion of the post because the original is visible a few lines above. My apologies if the snip made was unfair.

I will say that I agree with your second statement. Adding more content, I have no disagreements there. 

 

Where I think we disagree is the amount of resources it takes to add this new content. I don't know if any dev team has yet pulled it off. The process of building new stuff for the existing engine is intense. I made the change to Level Shifts in a few hours and resurrected some content that was otherwise not attractive. Doing that just required edits to power definitions. Editing maps or anything in the C code is a lot more intensive and risky.

 

The Dark Astoria content is actually excellent for teaming when its played in the level range where everyone is fighting +4s. When Level Shifts get involved and some of the team is fighting +1s and others +5s it's very noticeable though. It just seems wasteful to have such great material and then not make it available, whatever the original intent might have been. If we had map engines to make loads of new stuff it wouldn't be as noticeable, but the situation being what it is it sticks out.

[ivanhedgehog]

3 hours ago, Apparition said:

Perhaps gate Dark Astoria to level 50, and lower the maximum team size to four, while still keeping the ability to size the spawns to x8.  That way it would still fulfill its mission of being a solo path to Incarnate abilities and being a training wheel for Incarnate trials.

maybe limit the team you form to four yourself? 1,2,3,4? do not go on to 5? 6 is right out? problem solved. There is a team size solution for team size problems already in the game. also, if you dont invite anyone under 50 to the team, there wont be anyone under 50 on the team.

[Galaxy Brain]

41 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

But how fun was that?  lol. That gave me a run for my money that night too and I was decked out on my tanker - there was just.... So... Many.   lol

 

I have a knack for rooting out odd scenarios like that and its always fun.

 

I would love it if stuff like that happened more regularly but randomly also.

It was fun as hell, but also really out of left field as a weird event. I'd love for more X factor things: "INCOMING SWARM!"  "SUPER-CHARGED ENEMY INCOMING!" "THE NEBULIZER HAS BEEN USED TO DEBUFF YOU!" type of events that could mix up missions.

[Infinitum]

28 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Where I think we disagree is the amount of resources it takes to add this new content. I don't know if any dev team has yet pulled it off. The process of building new stuff for the existing engine is intense. I made the change to Level Shifts in a few hours and resurrected some content that was otherwise not attractive. Doing that just required edits to power definitions. Editing maps or anything in the C code is a lot more intensive and risky.

I dont think it would be resource intensive to take the following and add them as a setting to randomly appear in spawns.

 

1. Incarnate nullifies like in the magi

2. Battle maiden blue blades of death

3. Enemies that require control to easily defeat - Hamidon greenies.

4. Enemies that require range to easily defeat - Hamidon blues.

5. Enemies that require melee to easily defeat - Hamidon yellows

6. Massive random ambushes

 

All of that currently exists in game - you wouldnt have to add or change maps - although that would be a nice feature one day soon. I think the only hard part would be creating the setting to enable it.

 

And I get it - part time developers - and I am in no way being critical - but goals shouldn't be averted by the difficulty to achieve them. If that were the case why bother with any of it rather than a heavy handed approach that will put off any of the player base - who likely from my experiences nightly aren't perceiving a problem as you are - even though in do understand where you are coming from.

 

Most people dont want a grind - introducing a difficulty setting to create random exotics spawning wouldnt be grinding but would increase the challenge level - until we as a player base crack that code as well.

[Infinitum]

21 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It was fun as hell, but also really out of left field as a weird event. I'd love for more X factor things: "INCOMING SWARM!"  "SUPER-CHARGED ENEMY INCOMING!" "THE NEBULIZER HAS BEEN USED TO DEBUFF YOU!" type of events that could mix up missions.

It should be named this...  lol

[oedipus_tex]

44 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I dont think it would be resource intensive to take the following and add them as a setting to randomly appear in spawns.

 

1. Incarnate nullifies like in the magi

2. Battle maiden blue blades of death

3. Enemies that require control to easily defeat - Hamidon greenies.

4. Enemies that require range to easily defeat - Hamidon blues.

5. Enemies that require melee to easily defeat - Hamidon yellows

6. Massive random ambushes

 

All of that currently exists in game - you wouldnt have to add or change maps - although that would be a nice feature one day soon. I think the only hard part would be creating the setting to enable it.

 

And I get it - part time developers - and I am in no way being critical - but goals shouldn't be averted by the difficulty to achieve them. If that were the case why bother with any of it rather than a heavy handed approach that will put off any of the player base - who likely from my experiences nightly aren't perceiving a problem as you are - even though in do understand where you are coming from.

 

Most people dont want a grind - introducing a difficulty setting to create random exotics spawning wouldnt be grinding but would increase the challenge level - until we as a player base crack that code as well.

 

 

We agree about the mechanics you listed being fun and cool. It's good to find some common ground. Battle Maiden in particular is one of my favorite fights. Adding BM mechanics to invasions would be nice. 

 

I'm not sure how difficult any of them would be to add. Ambushes are probably the easiest but even then still not really easy.  On the other hand I couldn't quote you the number of hours it would take to build.

 

The solution, to me, is to take the obvious path and reinterpret powers-for-cash items. The SCORE team had to make a call on what to do with these items when the game went to completely free. They interpreted it by making the items available to everyone. I don't think it's unreasonable to revisit aspects of that, especially in a case like this were no one loses out.

[QuiJon]

On 2/28/2021 at 1:04 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Which means diff lvls up to +7/x14.

Not really. You could just make it so more enemy groups had the ability to do things like debuff resistances and defense, or to hit etc. As someone mentioned above somewhere, why not drop minions from certain level playing. Most basic enemy becomes LTs with the previous bosses spawning as Elite Bosses and anything that had an option to be EB or AV automatically is an AV again like the old days. Then yes maybe up the slider to +5/10 or so. 

[Snarky]

6 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Does fighting +4 enemies as actual +4s instead of +1s or +3s normally result in them operating like a Cath of Pain or launching nukes? Asking because what are you talking about.

Not that I have noticed.  Is this occurring for you?

[oedipus_tex]

5 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I waltzed my tank into @Linea's 802.5 AE mission at max diff. Hit rebirth, shield charged into the first spawn, hit whirling hands, ETed the biggest boss in the face and promptly faceplanted.

 

The ability to create really nasty critters and missions is available and I, too, would like to see more of it utilized across the board.

 

 

The 802.5 missions are good change of pace from time to time. I do like the feel of it being more like a dungeon and some variation in the meta of the game. Running Dark Astoria as a natural 50 kind of has some of that feel, just with less total beat downs. It's actually really well done content that is solable for most builds at +0 and hard enough to challenge a team at +4 which is why its such a shame the game levels you out of being able to use it if you follow the progression.

[DrunkFlux]

On 3/1/2021 at 12:31 PM, Infinitum said:

I dont think it would be resource intensive to take the following and add them as a setting to randomly appear in spawns.

 

1. Incarnate nullifies like in the magi

2. Battle maiden blue blades of death

3. Enemies that require control to easily defeat - Hamidon greenies.

4. Enemies that require range to easily defeat - Hamidon blues.

5. Enemies that require melee to easily defeat - Hamidon yellows

6. Massive random ambushes

 

All of that currently exists in game - you wouldnt have to add or change maps - although that would be a nice feature one day soon. I think the only hard part would be creating the setting to enable it.

 

And I get it - part time developers - and I am in no way being critical - but goals shouldn't be averted by the difficulty to achieve them. If that were the case why bother with any of it rather than a heavy handed approach that will put off any of the player base - who likely from my experiences nightly aren't perceiving a problem as you are - even though in do understand where you are coming from.

 

Most people dont want a grind - introducing a difficulty setting to create random exotics spawning wouldnt be grinding but would increase the challenge level - until we as a player base crack that code as well.

I'm not sure if it's a good idea to force specific archtypes in every team though, even in higher difficulties.  I saw how that worked in Diablo 2, with immunities added to hell mode to try and force teamplay, it wasn't very fun for a sorceress player like me to have to always do dual or tri element, even later as changes messed that up further.  I didn't wholly enjoy that.  Then players found ways to circumvent that in ways  that are kind of silly, like the sorceress who only focused on 'ONE' area for loot farming.

 

I also didn't enjoy having to wait for X or Y class all the time like in guild wars.  I don't want any one class to become the be-all-end-all in general, but forcing people to team with x or y class isn't particularly interesting to me, especially in radio missions.  We have that in incarnate trials, but only to a small degree.  What makes people team up and enjoy having a variety of archtypes in a team is that every archtype usually has something to offer outside of just damage/survivability.

 

I have another post about something after this since it's not 100% the exact same sub-topic.

 

[DrunkFlux]

(Split this into a separate post)

 

As for other things happening regarding IO's and balance, I thought of something that already happened, and given I entered this thread somewhat late, but I thought about the things I said earlier, and then came to a conclusion after having rolled a tanker(and after having done some more research for another thread, with the original post I am actually fine tuning).  We are already seeing archtypes being balanced as a result of IO's, a little bit.

 

Specifically, the tanker.  See before IO's ever came around the tanker was mostly useful because he was THE agro holding archtype in city of heroes hero side.  He wasn't vital, or required 100% but he was useful for keeping enemies away from other more fragile archtypes.  Back in pre-IO's force fields were still very useful even into late game, and even at the beginning of IO's most players didn't know how to increase locational or typed defense very well with IO's.  But that slowly began to change, and so did the value of the tanker.  He was already somewhat skippable if you had very good buffs, but still helpful for agro control.

 

He became more skippable because scrappers could soft-cap defenses, and higher cooldowns and better defense improvements from IO's were discovered over time, but not overly so.  But then Going Rogue came out, and the brute could come to hero side.  And the brute, we all know by then could greatly increase defenses.  Brutes were effectively more useful and more effective tankers simply because they could get comparable defenses to a tanker and have all the utility, AND the superior damage.  But lets rewind a bit to pre-IO villain side a bit, brutes  could NEVER, without IO's, achieve tanker survivability.  Brutes needed to be buffed to be effective tanks(and often brutes were in effective teams).

 

Fast forward again, brutes could upgrade the IO's to get very high survivability and out-class the tanker at his  job effectively.  They had  to NERF the brute on going rogue because the brute out-damaged the scrapper.  But it still wasn't quite enough.

 

So moving forwards to homecoming, the tanker was from going rogue up till the time he was buffed, only on a .75 damage modifier and 400% damage cap.  Thats pretty low compared to a .75 and 775% damage cap a brute had after he was nerfed on going rogue(Brute pre-GR was 850%!!!).  IO's still let the brute get pretty much the same survivability.  The brute may start with LESS survivability, but at the max brutes were effectively better tankers once IO's came into play.  People felt the tanker was lacking and not viable.  Low damage and a redundancy was a major problem for giving people incentive to play the archtype, even though they USED to be very valuable in the earlier days, they just didn't keep up with the power creep IO's introduced.

 

So what happened?  Well, tanker was boosted to .95 damage modifier and a 500% damage cap.  Other adjustments also made tankers superior in the area of effect damage field.  Effectively, tankers were changed to an AoE focused melee DAMAGE class with agro holding ability.   In fact, the new tanker feels more like the polar opposite of the stalker, a melee damage dealer focused on AoE and crowd control(through taunt).   And I enjoy the class when I play it.  This had to happen though because of how IO's effected the game.  Brutes also had a slight nerf(I think lower target cap for PBAoEs, and damage max lowered to 700%).  That  was  done  primarily to assure tankers had an appeal; for people who love AoE damage.

 

Now do brutes suck because of the changes?  No, not at all.  Tankers excel at AoE, brutes are better at single target damage.  It simply means that theres now an arguement for rolling a tanker over a brute.  Even for damage focused players the tanker can now  be  a good choice, and thats a good thing.

 

The same will probably happen for the same reason to the sentinel.  Everyone always says sentinels are useless because of how IO's can buff a blasters defense to soft-cap, be it smash/lethal/energy or worst the three locationals.  There is very little appeal to playing a sentinel because of that.  No matter  how much you argue that the game is never going to be balanced around IO's, when people  make THAT arguement about sentinels being weak BECAUSE they can achieve the same survivability on a blaster, it's not really any different than the tanker vs brute arguements many min/maxers had during live and the beginning of homecoming.

 

Because blasters can both out-damage sentinels AND have the same survivability it creates the same situation tankers had with brutes achieving the same overall survivability and superior damage.  They ended up having to buff tankers to make tankers relevant.

 

So if we are looking at balancing around IO's, I think we'll see more of that, balancing the AT's around how they can max out besides just what they have as a base line.  Changes may occur in which you'll see it being a far harder call between the two AT's even considering what you get at the max.

[Infinitum]

5 hours ago, LaughingAlex said:

I'm not sure if it's a good idea to force specific archtypes in every team though, even in higher difficulties.  I saw how that worked in Diablo 2, with immunities added to hell mode to try and force teamplay, it wasn't very fun for a sorceress player like me to have to always do dual or tri element, even later as changes messed that up further.  I didn't wholly enjoy that.  Then players found ways to circumvent that in ways  that are kind of silly, like the sorceress who only focused on 'ONE' area for loot farming.

 

I also didn't enjoy having to wait for X or Y class all the time like in guild wars.  I don't want any one class to become the be-all-end-all in general, but forcing people to team with x or y class isn't particularly interesting to me, especially in radio missions.  We have that in incarnate trials, but only to a small degree.  What makes people team up and enjoy having a variety of archtypes in a team is that every archtype usually has something to offer outside of just damage/survivability.

 

I have another post about something after this since it's not 100% the exact same sub-topic.

 

Did You read the part about it being a setting thats optional?

[Snarky]

6 hours ago, LaughingAlex said:

 

 

As for other things happening regarding IO's and balance, I thought of something that already happened, and given I entered this thread somewhat late, but I thought about the things I said earlier, and then came to a conclusion after having rolled a tanker(and after having done some more research for another thread, with the original post I am actually fine tuning).  We are already seeing archtypes being balanced as a result of IO's, a little bit.

 

 

I agree with LaughingAlex.  Read his full post a few entries above.  It is well written. In the post he explores the evolution of Tanks.  One of the big 3 in the 1st issue.  Due to I/O and powercreep had been more or less put into a position of training wheels for playing a Brute.  (I know not everyone agrees with that.  My opinion.  It is not meant as an insult, but to make a point) THe Homecoming Devs did a great service to the Tank AT, the game, and the players by tweaking Tankers so they properly fill a niche.

 

Sentinels, a class I desperately want to love....do not fill a niche in late game.  Due to I/O a Blaster or Corruptor, maybe even some Defenders? (lol, kinda, maybe?) can out damage a Sentinel and have EFFECTIVELY as much survivability.  Sentinels are training wheels for running a Blaster.  Even more so than Tankers were ever training for Brutes.  I understand the great caution the Homecoming Devs have looking at Sentinels and the inherent issues.  One tweak too much and it will be the ONLY AT worth playing for those evil P0w3rgam3rz.  Tank Mage....  Still, they are not currently in a good position and need to find a niche.  In my opinion.  Not meaning to insult any Sentinels out there.

 

 

[Apparition]

I'll be honest.  The Sentinel was a badly designed AT (even admitted by the designer on these forums), that should never have been added to the game.  Their only effective purpose is to teach newbies how to play Blasters while feeling safe, and then they can eventually graduate to Blasters.  Like as said above, "training wheels."