"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[DrunkFlux]

For  those  who don't play with me enough, I do actually enjoy the sentinel class and have what I feel is a solid water/SR build :P.   Even using water blast though, a top tier set, still could use some work.  My beam rifle/bio armor is also fun to play.  It does feel sentinels are imo funnest when you pick a very, very strong powerset combination though, it's mostly imo how powersets transition to sentinel that results in them feeling weak.  That and some base number discrepancy.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, LaughingAlex said:

For  those  who don't play with me enough, I do actually enjoy the sentinel class and have what I feel is a solid water/SR build :P.   Even using water blast though, a top tier set, still could use some work.  My beam rifle/bio armor is also fun to play.  It does feel sentinels are imo funnest when you pick a very, very strong powerset combination though, it's mostly imo how powersets transition to sentinel that results in them feeling weak.  That and some base number discrepancy.

I'll have to ditto this. It's one part the design of the ranged sets in general, and another part the changes to specifically Sentinel versions of sets and how they synergize that makes or breaks them. IMO, you can make a very potent and fun sent with the right combo... but likewise the wrong combo feels all the worse on a sentinel too.

[oedipus_tex]

Solo at least, Sentinels have the low damage Controller problem, same problem Tankers and Defenders have had at various points in the past. Defeating enemies quickly is the key to generating inspirations. It's a huge setback when a character can't get a flow going.

 

Combine this with not really having a lot to offer teams and I would agree Sentinels are a ripe place for some adjustments. 

 

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Sentinels definitely need a little something, what it is I'm not 100% but I feel their identity needs work + the inherent. However, the discussion around them VS IO'd Blasters are a real talking point. 

 

Assuming SO's only, they would probably fit in fine. But in reality, there are ways to make a Blaster tough-enough to where the Sentinel's perks often get overshadowed.

 

 

[Linea]

Crimson Prototype is Linea Approved.   (I've soloed him +4x8 on a few characters, but it wasn't easy.)

 

Huntsman, the original sentinel and still the best. 8-p

 

Pre-50 Pre-IOs Sentinels are fine, in fact they are pretty nice.  They do exactly what they were intended to do.   Armored Ranged Damage with 'average stalker armor' and 'average scrapper damage.  The problem is Damage varies from best to worst by a factor of 3x.  While 'average' is average, no one really want's 'average'.   Average is particularly bad when the best set does 3x the damage vs the worst set.  To further complicate it, they are never compared to the 'average' scrapper, but are almost always compared to above average Blasters who have much higher AoE.   Objectively they really are in that 90% ST Range and Significantly Higher AoE range vs the average scrapper.   But when compared to a High End Armored Blaster (or high-end non-average scrapper), the comparison fails badly.  ... and there's not much you can do to fix it with IOs, Pools, Epics, or really much of anything other than procs that come with a cost to something else in your build.

 

My Resist Armor Builds tend to balance vs Defense Armor Builds down to -35% to -45% defense in 801.  As long as you can keep from totally cascading to the floor, you're good.   Add Defense Buffs to a Resist armor and you're running around the equivalent of Perma T9 armor.

 

How about Scaling DDR for Resist Armors?

DDR is a real PITA balance wise, and I don't have any good answers, but it all does boil down to DDR more often and more substantially than it should.  Resist armors are always 'hit' .... all the debuffs land.   I'd probably want to give all resist armors some kind of Scaling DDR inherent.  I'd probably make it overkill and have it starts at 50ddr base Start it at 0ddr at +45 defense buff, and scale to 95ddr at  -50 defense debuff, (50% ddr at -5 defense).   Buffed your armor and buffs can be stripped right off you, but the farther you go into the red, toward the balance point, the more ddr you gain.   I use these numbers because I find my resist builds balance in the -35 to -45 defense range.  -35% and up I'm good but need to stay on my toes.  -35% and down it gets increasingly dangerous.  -45% and I'm gonna die, sooner than later.  Below -45% I'm very dead.   Damage wise I expect it actually caps at -45% ... so the actual balance point is probably -40% ish for me .. or maybe it's actually -35%.  But that's why I'd have Scaling DDR, such that the first buffs to land matter, but that it's also hard to debuff below that balance point vs defense based builds.

 

While you're at it, double the status protection on resist armors.   Getting stunned on a tank sucks.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Linea

[Hew]

 

 

That's Regen's comment on DDR.

[SwitchFade]

3 minutes ago, Hew said:

 

 

That's Regen's comment on DDR.

彼は日本人です。。ｗ

[Hew]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

彼は日本人です。。ｗ

そうです。

[Galaxy Brain]

On 3/5/2021 at 12:32 PM, Linea said:

How about Scaling DDR for Resist Armors?

DDR is a real PITA balance wise, and I don't have any good answers, but it all does boil down to DDR more often and more substantially than it should.  Resist armors are always 'hit' .... all the debuffs land.   I'd probably want to give all resist armors some kind of Scaling DDR inherent.  I'd probably make it overkill and have it starts at 50ddr base Start it at 0ddr at +45 defense buff, and scale to 95ddr at  -50 defense debuff, (50% ddr at -5 defense).   Buffed your armor and buffs can be stripped right off you, but the farther you go into the red, toward the balance point, the more ddr you gain.   I use these numbers because I find my resist builds balance in the -35 to -45 defense range.  -35% and up I'm good but need to stay on my toes.  -35% and down it gets increasingly dangerous.  -45% and I'm gonna die, sooner than later.  Below -45% I'm very dead.   Damage wise I expect it actually caps at -45% ... so the actual balance point is probably -40% ish for me .. or maybe it's actually -35%.  But that's why I'd have Scaling DDR, such that the first buffs to land matter, but that it's also hard to debuff below that balance point vs defense based builds.

 

While you're at it, double the status protection on resist armors.   Getting stunned on a tank sucks.

Just curious on this, you mean DDR would scale with your current Defensive value?

[Linea]

For Resist Armors (only)

Yes DDR would scale with current defense.   You'd probably have to actually monitor base defense, or one defense value, or ... .  Which means it would have to be time/tick limited to (something let 3-10 seconds per tick) prevent a cpu loop, or have some fun math I haven't even begun to contemplate.  It's all probably impossible.   But I would like to see Defense Buffs strip-able, while DDR scaled up when you hit negative numbers to make it difficult but not impossible to push defense below -35.  With the hopefull result that Buffs still matter, Debuffs still matter, but a total cascade would be immprobable and that the end results would balance better Resist Armor vs Defense Armor.

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Linea

[Galaxy Brain]

Brining up a topic from earlier in the thread, but how do we feel about ATOs? 

 

Currently, it seems a few ATs are basically defined by their access to them (Scraps, Stalks, MMs, Tanks, etc), while some are not. Should this be something that is more emphasized?

[Hew]

46 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Brining up a topic from earlier in the thread, but how do we feel about ATOs? 

 

Currently, it seems a few ATs are basically defined by their access to them (Scraps, Stalks, MMs, Tanks, etc), while some are not. Should this be something that is more emphasized?

I am not sure. They certainly have an outsized affect on play. 

 

Importantly, you can slot them at 10, and that is an amazing boost to survivability/function/whatever.

 

BUT, not everyone has them, or can afford to buy them (yes yes, everyone can be a billionaire), or is even aware of how potent they really are, so I am torn on it.

[Galaxy Brain]

28 minutes ago, Hew said:

I am not sure. They certainly have an outsized affect on play. 

 

Importantly, you can slot them at 10, and that is an amazing boost to survivability/function/whatever.

 

BUT, not everyone has them, or can afford to buy them (yes yes, everyone can be a billionaire), or is even aware of how potent they really are, so I am torn on it.

The last part is sort of where I am too, though everywhere you look (Reddit, Discord, Facebook, these Forums) they are always talked about especially with the ATs I highlighted. Combine that with how you only need 100 merits to get one of your "gamechanger" ones and I feel it may be more common than we think

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The last part is sort of where I am too, though everywhere you look (Reddit, Discord, Facebook, these Forums) they are always talked about especially with the ATs I highlighted. Combine that with how you only need 100 merits to get one of your "gamechanger" ones and I feel it may be more common than we think

I don't know, of the list the only one that I was aware of how game changing it was, was the stalker one. The rest in your list seem meh at best.

Edited March 9, 2021 by golstat2003

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I don't know, of the list the only one that I was aware of how game changing it was, was the stalker one. The rest in your list seem meh at best.

The scrapper AT IO +crit buffs are a huge damage buff.

[Hew]

9 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

The scrapper AT IO +crit buffs are a huge damage buff.

Tank one provides big resists. Brute one helps maintain and build fury on teams where they move fast, helping a moderate player maintain a higher level of fury.

[Bill Z Bubba]

12 minutes ago, Hew said:

Brute one helps maintain and build fury on teams where they move fast, helping a moderate player maintain a higher level of fury.

The other one adding +regen/+end ain't too shabby either.

[arcane]

I can’t say I’ve ever once thought on Homecoming that fury wasn't plainly easy af to keep up. Maybe when CoV first came out, if ever.

[Hew]

23 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

The other one adding +regen/+end ain't too shabby either.

Who REALLY needs blue or green, anyway? 

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Hew said:

Tank one provides big resists. Brute one helps maintain and build fury on teams where they move fast, helping a moderate player maintain a higher level of fury.

I've. . . . never had an issue building on maintaining fury even on fast teams. But I can see how this and the others stated would be helpful.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Hew said:

Who REALLY needs blue or green, anyway? 

Nerf regen you say, okay how about . . . oh wait wrong thread. Sorry. 😛 

[Galaxy Brain]

The MM aura ones are totally gamechanging for scaling up content with MMs

[Bill Z Bubba]

28 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The MM aura ones are totally gamechanging for scaling up content with MMs

Still think MM pets should not be lower level. Every MM I've tried to play and failed with sends me right back to this belief. Pets should be even level to the MM in question for all content.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The MM aura ones are totally gamechanging for scaling up content with MMs

I've actually tried those too besides the stalker ones. I didn't feel much difference in the incarnate trials. /shrug.

[Galaxy Brain]

The other ATO's are all varying degrees of good, do you think they should all be buffed to be "Game Changers" like the ones mentioned?

 

Also side note for MMs, but all the pet aura IOs are something this thread is definitely made for. They totally "band aid" the issues with them as an AT.