Pool Powers / hasten / epics / thoughts

[Incursion]

5 minutes ago, Verm said:

Uh, bro? Just take a step back, I don't think he's trolling you. He tried to be funny with his first comment, and ever since you two have been just kinda arguing of whether or not it was meant in bad faith. Chill.

It was dismissive, and not constructive. Comments like that pretty much doom threads. 

[GM Lines]

Everyone needs to chill out a bit it in here or we'll lock the thread.

 

Don't forget to stay focused on the suggestion itself and give the stickied post a read if you haven't already.

 

❤️

[MTeague]

2 minutes ago, Incursion said:

I appreciate your response, and I find a lot of the sets I’ve been trying lately have had too much benefit to bypass it. Other than the cookie cutter fire brute I decided on an em/ice scrapper. It’s a secondary I’ve found a little lacking. I really like ice bastion but when it’s down it’s tough as hoarfrost has long recharge. I added shadow meld and went down the new pool for unleashed potential. If it weren’t for those plus D clicks I’d have a really hard time.  I can understand the argument of hasten remaining a have or have not choice, I just wish it weren’t tied to superspeed. 

 

This I can work with. If the real issue is "how can I squeeze in more recharge / without hasten on a character with X powersets", I'm sure we can come up with many answers.

Or if really the core problem is "survivability while X cooldowns are down", that can be addressed too.

 

Hasten is still a good min/max choice, don't get me wrong. But there's options.

 

/Ice scrapper should have loads of Defense already, so certainly your slotting can focus much more on +Recharge.

Adrenal Boost and Unleash Potential are both excellent., though of course you can only have one. 

 

I tend to think of Defensiive characters in terms of my /SR scrapper. That's not always a fair comparison, but it's what I reach for. 

SR's scaling resist is excellent. /Ice won't have that. But slotting for +Resist to go with existing high +Defense doesn't hurt.

And don't overlook Medicine.  /SR and /Ice can both use that *very* safely in combat.  There's no guarantees on RNG of course, but it'll go off a LOT of the time. 

Certainly grab some of the procs that give you passive +healing, Panacea, Power Shifter, if you don't already have them. Maintence heals that just happen are nice.

 

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, Incursion said:

hasten is still practically mandatory as it has been since launch. Some will disagree but maybe it’s time it’s made inherent,

 

It isn't, and never has been, "mandatory," and no it should *not* be made inherent. Ever.

 

Edit:

 

For clarity - this is coming from literally hundreds of characters of all ATs on live and here. For most of mine that take hasten, it's a late or "I have nothing else I really want" choice, and I probably don't slot it.

 

It's only "mandatory" for specific playstyles - and apparently not even permadom needs it any more (I don't play permadom since I *like* the up-and-down of standard domination.)

 

There are very few powersets I feel like I have to take hasten on... so few that the only one I can really think of is Illusion (which, itself, is not one of my favorite powersets,) and that mostly because of Phantom Army, how early it comes and how heavily it's used.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Greycat

[Incursion]

1 minute ago, MTeague said:

 

This I can work with. If the real issue is "how can I squeeze in more recharge / without hasten on a character with X powersets", I'm sure we can come up with many answers.

Or if really the core problem is "survivability while X cooldowns are down", that can be addressed too.

 

Hasten is still a good min/max choice, don't get me wrong. But there's options.

 

/Ice scrapper should have loads of Defense already, so certainly your slotting can focus much more on +Recharge.

Adrenal Boost and Unleash Potential are both excellent., though of course you can only have one. 

 

I tend to think of Defensiive characters in terms of my /SR scrapper. That's not always a fair comparison, but it's what I reach for. 

SR's scaling resist is excellent. /Ice won't have that. But slotting for +Resist to go with existing high +Defense doesn't hurt.

And don't overlook Medicine.  /SR and /Ice can both use that *very* safely in combat.  There's no guarantees on RNG of course, but it'll go off a LOT of the time. 

Certainly grab some of the procs that give you passive +healing, Panacea, Power Shifter, if you don't already have them. Maintence heals that just happen are nice.

 

I’ve had a tough time making ice work well, I made the same scrapper with /rad and with iOS and set bonuses the /rad is way easier to play, and it has less recharge. Hasten as a pool choice feels required for both with my playstyle but I couldnt imagine not having it on the ice. For me it’s too dependent on recharging bastion and the other 2 powers. The defensive numbers on /ice aren’t that high, even when combined with maneuvers, CJ, weave. It’s a tough nut but I like the character and there aren’t many out there. I make it work and I’m happy with it. I just wish I could use the hasten choice as a precursor to other powers in the travel pools to get other useful powers.

 

Ive built this character in mids with EA and EA is definitely way higher on the defensive end.  Anyway, just trying to address a few things here. Hasten isn’t the only issue I’m working with

[Incursion]

3 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

It isn't, and never has been, "mandatory," and no it should *not* be made inherent. Ever.

Fair but would you be opposed to not having it tied to speed. What about the generic pool idea

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, Incursion said:

Fair but would you be opposed to not having it tied to speed. What about the generic pool idea

 

Honestly, the idea of that pool is too... er, generic... for me to really have an opinion on right now. That said, it's hasten. Thematically, it *is* tied to speed, so there'd have to be a really good argument for moving it (and what to replace it with in the speed pool) for me to go along with it.

[AerialAssault]

I think the thing to take in with Hasten is that it is a powerful choice. There is no denying this. For such a power, there needs to be a trade-off, and like most powers that trade-off is spending one of your limited power selections. I feel that this trade-off should remain. It could be it's own non-pool power that requires a power pick, but doesn't take up a Pool slot.

[Incursion]

3 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

Honestly, the idea of that pool is too... er, generic... for me to really have an opinion on right now. That said, it's hasten. Thematically, it *is* tied to speed, so there'd have to be a really good argument for moving it (and what to replace it with in the speed pool) for me to go along with it.

 

Speed in general is a little meh I guess. Hopefully with the new changes to base levels that will change especially being able to now stack athletic run or ninja speed to the power. Nobody takes flurry or whirlwind, I haven’t tried the other power yet to analyze it. 
 

I guess I’m more of a +recharge guy across the board and just want to be able to fill my min/max potential while flying without a jet pack. 

[Incursion]

3 minutes ago, AerialAssault said:

I think the thing to take in with Hasten is that it is a powerful choice. There is no denying this. For such a power, there needs to be a trade-off, and like most powers that trade-off is spending one of your limited power selections. I feel that this trade-off should remain. It could be it's own non-pool power that requires a power pick, but doesn't take up a Pool slot.

 
I think that would be awesome, and it is a very powerful choice, certainly the most powerful tier one choice. That’s the only reason I thought maybe not having it tied to speed would keep it a decision but allow more versatility as far as actual travel choice outside of temp powers. 
 

Inherent or built in clearly is too much power for some people so I’ll concede that

[GM Impervium]

Hid some not-nice posts made AFTER Lines' warning. That's Strike 2. Cut the hostility.

Edited March 13, 2021 by GM Impervium
double wording =/

[Incursion]

Just now, GM Impervium said:

Hid some Hostile posts made AFTER Lines' warning. That's Strike 2. Cut the hostility.

 

1 minute ago, GM Impervium said:

Hid some Hostile posts made AFTER Lines' warning. That's Strike 2. Cut the hostility.

If it was my reply after, I apologize. I think I was mid typing when he posted. 

[Greycat]

6 minutes ago, Incursion said:

 

Speed in general is a little meh I guess. Hopefully with the new changes to base levels that will change especially being able to now stack athletic run or ninja speed to the power. Nobody takes flurry or whirlwind, I haven’t tried the other power yet to analyze it.

 

Get on test and test. (Everyone do that.) And give feedback in the focused feedback threads.

 

What I'm happiest about with Super Speed now is the fact you have some *vertical* mobility (IE, you have a jump boost) after a few seconds. Granted, I'd still probably take Combat Jumping on top of it, but that's me (and probably out of habit more than anything.)

[Incursion]

Ok guys, sorry for my part in the back and forth. 
 

in regards to hasten. I just wish it could be had without superspeed, that’s really all. While having it inherent for my play style would make me really happy, I understand the balance concerns. In my head it feels like everyone uses it, maybe I’m wrong.

 

what about epic/patrons pools for melee. That AOE comes at a high price, for some sets higher than others. Could that be shuffled around? I feel like immobilize or a hold power for a scrapper/tank is kind of a burner choice. It’s probably what also makes moonbeam/shadowmeld a popular choice for non farmers as its a 2 power pick to get two great powers and a luck of the gambler slot.

 

EM - I want to like that cone. Right now I ditched it for whirling hands as my aoe is pretty bad.  Room for love there?

[Greycat]

5 minutes ago, Incursion said:

 

in regards to hasten. I just wish it could be had without superspeed, that’s really all.

 

Ummm....

 

It... can be taken without ever touching superspeed? Right at level 4?

 

Can I put the "Confused" emoji on my own posts?

Edited March 13, 2021 by Greycat

[Alchemystic]

33 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

It isn't, and never has been, "mandatory," and no it should *not* be made inherent. Ever.

 

 

Agreed.

 

If picking Hasten is obstructive to your build... you can't build.

 

That's no fault of the game.

[Incursion]

Just now, Greycat said:

Ummm....

 

It... can be taken without ever touching superspeed? Right at level 4?

at the cost of a pool selection - i wasn't specific enough

[Greycat]

Just now, Incursion said:

at the cost of a pool selection - i wasn't specific enough

 

Ahh. OK, that makes more sense.

[Incursion]

Just now, Tyrannical said:

 

Agreed.

 

If picking Hasten is obstructive to your build... you can't build.

 

That's no fault of the game.

That's your opinion and depends on what your intentions are with the build.  If you are a dominator trying to make Domination perma, you can't do that without hasten. It may not be how you build a character, but if I were rolling a dominator, i would take hasten.  

[Alchemystic]

7 minutes ago, Incursion said:

That's your opinion and depends on what your intentions are with the build.  If you are a dominator trying to make Domination perma, you can't do that without hasten. It may not be how you build a character, but if I were rolling a dominator, i would take hasten.  

Then... it wouldn't be obstructive to your build then, would it?

[Incursion]

1 minute ago, Tyrannical said:

 

Then.. it wouldn't be obstructive.

It's obstructive if i dont want to lose a pool and feel forced to take superspeed as a travel. yes it's choice, but it's a choice i'm tired of making on many of the powersets.  I would just like the power untethered to superspeed or have an equivalent power offered in the other travel pools.  It's just a suggestion, i think people would think it's a cool feature. The non hasten people can continue to not use it, and for those like me who put it on almost every build it gives them a little more travel flexibility.  That's really all im after in regards to hasten.  

[Apparition]

8 minutes ago, Incursion said:

That's your opinion and depends on what your intentions are with the build.  If you are a dominator trying to make Domination perma, you can't do that without hasten. It may not be how you build a character, but if I were rolling a dominator, i would take hasten.  

There are perma Dom builds without Hasten, FWIW.

[Incursion]

3 minutes ago, Apparition said:

There are perma Dom builds without Hasten, FWIW.

maybe there are, it was just an example i remember from mine back on live.  Can all primary/secondary dominator combos achieve that much recharge without hasten? I honestly don't know.  I've been maining scrappers the last couple months as i primarily played ranged AT's back on live.  My builds have been going for a healthy amount of recharge to keep heal powers and T9's up often.  

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Incursion

[Alchemystic]

13 minutes ago, Incursion said:

It's obstructive if i dont want to lose a pool and feel forced to take superspeed as a travel. yes it's choice, but it's a choice i'm tired of making on many of the powersets.

 

The only semblance of logic I'm seeing here is that you want to have four power pools that aren't speed in your build, yet still have Hasten?

That's so incredibly niche it can't possibly justify making Hasten inherent, or even 'generic' as you put it.

You can't have everything, you're just gonna have to suck it up and accept that.

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Tyrannical

[Incursion]

4 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

 

The only semblance of logic I'm seeing here is that you want to have four power pools that aren't speed in your build, yet still have Hasten?

That's so incredibly niche it can't possibly justify making Hasten inherent, or even 'generic' as you put it.

You can't have everything, you're just gonna have to suck it up and accept that.

I'd like to have a hasten or hasten equivalent outside the speed pool yes. You think it's incredibly niche, i disagree.  Look at nearly every build posted in the AT forums and compare those with and without hasten.  I'm not asking for "everything" as you put it. I just want hasten and fly, or hasten and Superjump, another option that Hasten + speed because Hasten is simply that good of a power.  You guys are acting like unthering it to the travel power would be so game-breaking.  yeah i get a jetpack for 30 minutes at at time, but i can't slot it. 

 

Also still very little if any thoughts on the other powers i brought up. Clearly posting here was a mistake. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Incursion