Pool Powers / hasten / epics / thoughts

[arcane]

For reasons easily documented and available via search function, I must vote no.

[Alchemystic]

2 minutes ago, Incursion said:

I'm not asking for "everything" as you put it. I just want hasten and fly, or hasten and Superjump, another option that Hasten + speed because Hasten is simply that good of a power.

 

But... you CAN do that.

Do you even know what point you're making at this point? It changes every time somebody challenges your idea.

[Incursion]

Obviously can't have an opinion without being talked down to around here.  

Edited March 13, 2021 by Incursion

[Incursion]

Just now, Tyrannical said:

 

But... you CAN do that.

Do you even know what point you're making at this point? It changes every time somebody challenges your idea.

AT THE COST OF AN ENTIRE POOL SELECTION

[Alchemystic]

Just now, Incursion said:

AT THE COST OF AN ENTIRE POOL SELECTION

 

it makes no difference if you only have TWO pool powers!

[Incursion]

2 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

 

it makes no difference if you only have TWO pool powers!

i've never made a character with only two pool powers....ever.

[Incursion]

why is it so hard to understand that someone would want hasten, but not want to waste a pool selection to have it because none of the other powers in the pool appeal to them. literally the whole pool is junk, especially now that experimentation is a choice and gives you superspeed plus some.  I can't remember the last time i saw a character running around with whirlwind..  

 

[Alchemystic]

7 minutes ago, Incursion said:

i've never made a character with only two pool powers....ever.

 

Then what in god's green earth is your point?

 

Let's recap;

• You want inherent Hasten
• You don't want inherent Hasten
• You want inherent Hasten again
• You want more than 4 pools
• You don't want more than 4 pools
• You want 4 pools plus Hasten inherent
• You want 4 pools plus Hasten but not inherent

 

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, Incursion said:

why is it so hard to understand that someone would want hasten, but not want to waste a pool selection to have it because none of the other powers in the pool appeal to them. literally the whole pool is junk, especially now that experimentation is a choice and gives you superspeed plus some.  I can't remember the last time i saw a character running around with whirlwind..  

 

 

It's called "opportunity cost." You want something, especially that powerful, there's a cost to be paid.  ONE pool pick and no prerequisites for hasten is pretty *cheap,* honestly.

 

And the "whole pool" is junk? Superspeed is popular, and is getting a useful buff in the next patch. Burnout gives a recharge boost on demand. Whirlwind used to be "a thing" on live for a while - I don't recall if it was from PVP or something else. Flurry... well, is flurry. That could use some looking into.

 

Honestly, I think the only reason Hasten isn't farther in the pool like Adrenal Booster is that *all* it does is give +Recharge, not other buffs.

[Outrider_01]

Hasten is not mandatory.  The reason its taken, of all the power pool options it is by far the most valuable to have on return on investment...1 pick, tied to 1 pool.

 

The cost of that power pool pick, returns nearly 50% reduction on the timer for very long recharge power.  Power Surge, goes from 16:40 minutes to 8 minutes and change.  No recharge enhancements on Power Surge, just the hasten buff.

 

For the argument of Hasten being Inherent and using Stamina as your stage to support it, some bring it to the table but the OP didn't.  Stamina was the cost of a power pool, 3 picks, and wow...you got about .5 endurance recovery when you slotted it with 3 endurance modification enhancements.  You wasted 1 power pick, 2 useless powers with Swift/Hurdle/Health, for  a 3rd on Stamina for .5 endurance recovery which can covered with endurance reduction enhancements, the .5 recovery was just a bonus to keep it in the green.  The investment was 3 power picks, its a boon to have it as an inherent.

 

You want it as inherent?  Grats, you get it.  Being that HC is the closest thing to live and I have a belief there is a dev involved with the spirit of the game, that inherent will probably be 25% recharge on a timer like a T9 defense click.  If you think like a Dev, wouldn't the best compromise be a burst recharge for power with a long cool down kind of like Rest (yes Rest is 30 seconds but it is next to useless except after a rez hence its an inherent recovery power)

[Incursion]

1 minute ago, Tyrannical said:

 

Then what in god's green earth is your point?

 

Let's recap;

• You want inherent Hasten
• You don't want inherent Hasten
• You want inherent Hasten again
• You want more than 4 pools
• You don't want more than 4 pools
• You want 4 pools plus Hasten inherent
• You want 4 pools plus Hasten but not inherent

 

 

what? who said i don't want more than 4 pools?   I suggested in the OP making hasten inherent, having the recharge built in passively, or not tethered to the travel power super speed.  The reasoning is simple:

 

- Many players take speed just for hasten

- Hasten is a very powerful tool,  a must take for many players in my opinion

- Is the only good power in that pool, when there is a lot of inherent/free + speed in the game without purchase of a temp power

- Would love to mix hasten with other travel powers as it takes up an entire pool selection

 

i conceded that that inherent or passive is probably not a good idea based on some of the actual constructive comments.  

[Alchemystic]

 

1 minute ago, Incursion said:

 

what? who said i don't want more than 4 pools?   I suggested in the OP making hasten inherent, having the recharge built in passively, or not tethered to the travel power super speed.  The reasoning is simple:

 

Then I'll defer to my earlier point.

 

Do you just want Hasten to be inherent so you can pick 4 other power pools that aren't Speed?

Because if that's the reasoning here, you're outta luck, you can't have everything.

[Incursion]

2 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Hasten is not mandatory.  The reason its taken, of all the power pool options it is by far the most valuable to have on return on investment...1 pick, tied to 1 pool.

 

The cost of that power pool pick, returns nearly 50% reduction on the timer for very long recharge power.  Power Surge, goes from 16:40 minutes to 8 minutes and change.  No recharge enhancements on Power Surge, just the hasten buff.

 

For the argument of Hasten being Inherent and using Stamina as your stage to support it, some bring it to the table but the OP didn't.  Stamina was the cost of a power pool, 3 picks, and wow...you got about .5 endurance recovery when you slotted it with 3 endurance modification enhancements.  You wasted 1 power pick, 2 useless powers with Swift/Hurdle/Health, for  a 3rd on Stamina for .5 endurance recovery which can covered with endurance reduction enhancements, the .5 recovery was just a bonus to keep it in the green.  The investment was 3 power picks, its a boon to have it as an inherent.

 

You want it as inherent?  Grats, you get it.  Being that HC is the closest thing to live and I have a belief there is a dev involved with the spirit of the game, that inherent will probably be 25% recharge on a timer like a T9 defense click.  If you think like a Dev, wouldn't the best compromise be a burst recharge for power with a long cool down kind of like Rest (yes Rest is 30 seconds but it is next to useless except after a rez hence its an inherent recovery power)

 

I appreciate your comment, i'm convinced that inherent is a poor idea, it just bothers me that the it's literally the best power in an entire pool that benefits literally every other power on a timer in the game.  So if anything i'm pointing out how grossly overpowered it is compared to most other pool selections. The thing is, if you remove the power, it will be ED/REGEN nerf all over again.  Instead, i just think it be nice to have a hasten power in every travel pool that can be selected once (so you can't stack it) and players can experiment in those other travel pools.  That's really the crux of it in regards to hasten.  This thread also had some thoughts about EM, Epic pools for melee, and specifically shadow meld animation as i've been playing with it lately.  The post was sort of off the cuff in you will, in regards to hasten i should have thought it through a bit more before posting. i didn't think it was going to turn into this. 

[Incursion]

Just now, Tyrannical said:

 

 

Then I'll defer to my earlier point.

 

Do you just want Hasten to be inherent so you can pick 4 other power pools that aren't Speed?

Because if that's the reasoning here, you're outta luck, you can't have everything.

 

Inherent means it wouldn't cost a power selection. For something as powerful as hasten, i was asking too much for it to be inherent.  However, that wasn't my only idea on the matter. I think it would be nice if it was a selectable power in all of the travel pools so it still comes at a cost. If you think that's asking for everything, i'm sorry I disagree with you. 

[dragonhawk777]

I fail to see why anyone would be against the idea of Hasten being inherited.  If you dont want to take it then dont slot it and dont make it run on auto.  Then its just an unused ability in the inherited section and can be treated like Rest is.  The ability may not be mandatory, but it is widely used on a vast majority of the characters in the game.  Some power sets may not need it much, but that was true for Stamina also, but the devs still made that pool inherited.  They left it up to the player if they wanted to put enhancement slots in it or just leave it alone.  If you didnt slot it then it didnt help you that much, but it did open up build options for players that wanted to use that option.

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, Incursion said:

 

I think it would be nice if it was a selectable power in all of the travel pools so it still comes at a cost.

 

OK, issues with that:

1. What power is removed from all the other travel pools to make room for it?

2. Double, Triple or Quad-Hasten is just not going to fly without a severe nerf to Hasten. Not even in Fly.

3. It thematically doesn't *fit* in the other pools. What about Leaping says "Hasten?" What about Fly does? Or Teleport?

4. Assuming you don't want to fit it in Experimentation as well, do we move Adrenal Booster down? Do we then either nerf it (removing the +Dam and +Tohit) or add THOSE to hasten?

 

There are a good number of followon effects to that.

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, dragonhawk777 said:

I fail to see why anyone would be against the idea of Hasten being inherited.  If you dont want to take it then dont slot it and dont make it run on auto.  Then its just an unused ability in the inherited section and can be treated like Rest is.  The ability may not be mandatory, but it is widely used on a vast majority of the characters in the game.  Some power sets may not need it much, but that was true for Stamina also, but the devs still made that pool inherited.  They left it up to the player if they wanted to put enhancement slots in it or just leave it alone.  If you didnt slot it then it didnt help you that much, but it did open up build options for players that wanted to use that option.

 

All of this has been covered in the rest of the thread, including the difference between STamina being made inherent (and the cost to get to stamina) and making Hasten inherent.

[Incursion]

Just now, dragonhawk777 said:

I fail to see why anyone would be against the idea of Hasten being inherited.  If you dont want to take it then dont slot it and dont make it run on auto.  Then its just an unused ability in the inherited section and can be treated like Rest is.  The ability may not be mandatory, but it is widely used on a vast majority of the characters in the game.  Some power sets may not need it much, but that was true for Stamina also, but the devs still made that pool inherited.  They left it up to the player if they wanted to put enhancement slots in it or just leave it alone.  If you didnt slot it then it didnt help you that much, but it did open up build options for players that wanted to use that option.

 

Why players wouldn't want it i don't have an answer for, but from a power pool selection, i do understand how this one power is literally one of the most powerful tools compared to every pool power, so it should come at cost in their eyes.  I can see that point and if inherent hasten would really unbalance things i'd concede that. I just think it be cool to be able to continue making the choice to have or not have, but not having it use up a whole pool. That would free up a lot of other choices for many players (not all). 

[AerialAssault]

Just now, dragonhawk777 said:

I fail to see why anyone would be against the idea of Hasten being inherited.  If you dont want to take it then dont slot it and dont make it run on auto.  Then its just an unused ability in the inherited section and can be treated like Rest is.  The ability may not be mandatory, but it is widely used on a vast majority of the characters in the game.  Some power sets may not need it much, but that was true for Stamina also, but the devs still made that pool inherited.  They left it up to the player if they wanted to put enhancement slots in it or just leave it alone.  If you didnt slot it then it didnt help you that much, but it did open up build options for players that wanted to use that option.

 

As @Outrider_01 said, Stamina and Hasten are not close to being comparable. It would be dishonest to say that they both have similar impact.

 

Fitness was a trash power pool. Looking back on it now, I don't know why I ever bothered with it.

 

If we're going to give players powers simply because they're 'popular', will that mean inherent Combat Jumping? Manoeuvres? Tough & Weave? By giving players these for free, you're reducing player agency in how they build their characters, which includes not taking something which might be considered 'meta'. A lot of people also complain that the game is too easy, giving all players Hasten is not productive for the balance of the game, and you can say 'well don't use it', but if you give something to players you have to assume that it will be used.

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Incursion said:

Clearly if it’s not the first time, maybe the dismissive attitudes are part of the problem. I’ve been back a few months, noticed some really interesting pool options yet hasten is always taken but literally 90% of the playerbase.  All the beta changes to travel revolve around stacking of powers and speed, why not just make a hasten option for all of them so it’s still a power choice. Makes sense to me. 

 

Adding recharge is a choice. It is going to remain that way. (just trying to provide a baseline so you don't waste your time chasing windmills)

 

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Troo

[Incursion]

2 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

OK, issues with that:

1. What power is removed from all the other travel pools to make room for it?

2. Double, Triple or Quad-Hasten is just not going to fly without a severe nerf to Hasten. Not even in Fly.

3. It thematically doesn't *fit* in the other pools. What about Leaping says "Hasten?" What about Fly does? Or Teleport?

4. Assuming you don't want to fit it in Experimentation as well, do we move Adrenal Booster down? Do we then either nerf it (removing the +Dam and +Tohit) or add THOSE to hasten?

 

There are a good number of followon effects to that.

None removed

No stacking, can only be selected from one chosen pool, like experimentation and force of will can't be used together.

It's a recharge buff, that's all it is.  It's no different than slotting you powers for recharge.  Call it whatever you want in the other pools.  Again you don't have to choose it. 

Leave Adreinal as is. can be used either or or in conjunction as it is now. 

[Incursion]

1 minute ago, AerialAssault said:

 

As @Outrider_01 said, Stamina and Hasten are not close to being comparable. It would be dishonest to say that they both have similar impact.

 

Fitness was a trash power pool. Looking back on it now, I don't know why I ever bothered with it.

 

If we're going to give players powers simply because they're 'popular', will that mean inherent Combat Jumping? Manoeuvres? Tough & Weave? By giving players these for free, you're reducing player agency in how they build their characters, which includes not taking something which might be considered 'meta'. A lot of people also complain that the game is too easy, giving all players Hasten is not productive for the balance of the game, and you can say 'well don't use it', but if you give something to players you have to assume that it will be used.

 Fitness is/was a trash pool but if you go back in time you'd probably still use it.  IO's, incarnates weren't a thing at that time, and there weren't that many hami'd out characters that would skip it unless you had quickness or quick recovery.  different times really

[Alchemystic]

Just now, Incursion said:

 

Inherent means it wouldn't cost a power selection. For something as powerful as hasten, i was asking too much for it to be inherent.  However, that wasn't my only idea on the matter. I think it would be nice if it was a selectable power in all of the travel pools so it still comes at a cost. If you think that's asking for everything, i'm sorry I disagree with you. 

 

Right, so you just want Hasten to be a pick that doesn't influence the maximum number of power pools available? Great, we got there in the end didn't we?

But even if that's the case, there's a cost to picking pool powers, which @Greycat put rather well. You're not just picking a new power, you're 'locking in' a pool, that's the sacrifice you need to make when considering builds like this. Hasten is popular, sure, so is Tough, and Combat Jumping, should they be made freely accessible outside of pools too? How far do we go with this? Do we just remove the concept of power pools entirely?

These restrictions exist for a reason, to ensure you can't just hoard all the best powers from each pool and play an absolutely monster of a build, deal with it.

[Outrider_01]

6 minutes ago, Incursion said:

best power in an entire pool that benefits literally every other power on a timer in the game

 

 hasten power in every travel pool that

 

crux of it in regards to hasten

The crux is, hasten is a touchy subject because it is so powerful.  It is a tier 1 option, compared to other pools like Vengence/Weave level; hasten should of been at their level and tied into 3 power pool sections. 

 

As for it being in all travel power pools, its the theme of the pool that makes each unique.  Someone in the past week had the same thought as Acrobatics, its what makes Leaping useful with status protection.  Teleportion is just that, teleporation and boy did it get a useful with the ability to set up the battlefield.  Speed and flight need a tweak to be as useful, but Hasten cannot be inherent in all power pools or next thing you know you need Acrobatics and others in every pool.

[dragonhawk777]

Just now, Greycat said:

 

All of this has been covered in the rest of the thread, including the difference between STamina being made inherent (and the cost to get to stamina) and making Hasten inherent.

The main argument against is the cost factor and how such a powerful benefit should have some cost to it.  Sorry but CoH gave up on real costs long ago.  IOs pretty much ended limitations put in place with ED, AE farms made influence a cake walk to get, so you can have a toon IOed out at level 25.  I would say that if the game had more level based and item based progression the argument would have greater weight, but for years now CoH has been much more about being able to play around with new builds and have them be heroic whenever you want (level wise).  Making Hasten inherited does that or just lose the power all together and put more recharge boosts in other powers, so they arent in just a few.