Focused Feedback: Pool Powerset Revamp: Sorcery

[Mezmera]

I appreciate the effort to overcorrect Rune yet again based on the feedback.  Really wish it was just brought down to the 60s and that would be that.  Those that know to slot and build it up could feasibly get it up to 40-45% uptime, those less familiar with building would likely still have it at 25-30% uptime.  I don't like this arbitrary lock in to a set value recharge, what's the point of even having teammates that have speedboost if we're just going to remove recharge from powers.  

 

Before we bring up the One with the Shield power, yes it's strong, yes I slot it with a full set of Unbreakable Guards and yes I only use it once out of every ten days I play that one.  

 

I think the toggle leash is a novel idea but at that end cost I don't see it, along with the other high end cost toggle t3 power I would skip for RoP.  Someone mentioned about with the leash it'd be neat if not only did it toggle up a small tick for your teammate but also for you thus making you care to stay by each other better.  It'd be a move to promote teamming or at least buddying up and the values could be adjusted to whatever so that it's a strong selection but not an "OP" selection.  

 

Arcane Bolt seems quaint, hardly useable for most characters as they'd likely have better attacks but do appreciate the option for others that could make use.  

 

To me just an overcorrection where the two t1 powers could have been tinkered with along with the RoP nerf and call it a day.  Simple.  

[Arbegla]

7 minutes ago, Puma said:

Wait...if we're adding in incarnate powers then you have to add in Barrier to your "limitations" to the controller example. 

So no...it's really not that simple. 


Yes.  A person who
A:  Takes the sorcery pool and two powers from it
B:  Takes other powers that add to their recharge
C.:  Takes enough defense powers to slot 5 LoTGs for recharge boosts
D.: works the rest of their IO sets to add recharge 
E: Unlocks all incarnate powers and slots two very specific ones
COULD THEORETICALLY work it so they're permanently at the mez protection cap with enough micromanaging.

Just like a controller who
A:  Takes pool powers that grant defense like Combat Jumping and Manuevers
B:  Takes other powers that add to their defense
C.:  Takes powers that allow set bonuses for defense
D.: works the rest of their IO sets to add defense
E: Unlocks all incarnate powers and slots two very specific ones like Barrier or Melee or Support hybrids 
Could THEORETICALLY work it so they're permanently at the defense cap even when facing enemies who debuff defense with some micromanaging.


And you know what?  Both should be.  Because the person worked their butt off and made sacrifices to get there to shore up their weaknesses, and there will always be SOME enemies where it won't matter because their attacks are unresistable anyway.  

 

You're still ignoring the 5% tohit chance that softcapped defense leaves open vs the absolute immunity that Mez Protection provides.

[ForeverLaxx]

2 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

You're still ignoring the 5% tohit chance that softcapped defense leaves open vs the absolute immunity that Mez Protection provides.

You're ignoring that "squishies" already have "absolute immunity" if they pick the right primary/secondary or carry a tray of breakfrees.

 

By the way, purples will offset that "no DDR" problem really well. Interestingly, a breakfree will "offset" that pesky auto-hit mez problem since you're very unlikely to get tagged with one that needs a ToHit roll in the first place.

 

You keep saying "absolute immunity" with regards to RoP and I just have to assume you don't play the game at this point.

[Puma]

5 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

You're still ignoring the 5% tohit chance that softcapped defense leaves open vs the absolute immunity that Mez Protection provides.

You're ignoring that a single -recharge affect from a single enemy ends your Mez Protection 100% immunity.  And also you're ignoring how much MORE helpeful and effective defense is to mez. Every single conflict in the game has damage coming at you that defense protects you against.   Much much fewer of them have mez coming at you.  

In point of fact, that's why I actually see RoP as mostly a res boost on the characters I have it, not a mez boost.  I don't usually select it for mez. I want the added resistance.  But that's beside the point. 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Puma

[America's Angel]

7 hours ago, Alouu said:

Assuming the main balancing point for RoP is uptime and the dev intended value for that is 33% I would like to request:

 

Duration:  40s -> 60s

Recharge: 120s -> 180s

 

Reasoning:

The 33% uptime balance-point will be maintained.

The power wont need to be animated as frequently.

The increased flat up & downtime will synergize better with t9s.

The increased flat up & downtime will synergize better with melee hybrid.

+1.

 

After testing out Rune of Protection some more, both in PVE and PVP, I think 60s uptime with a 180s recharge would be ideal. (Especially as Unleashed Potential and Adrenal Booster are going to be changed in Page 3 to match Rune of Protection.)

 

The game has a lot of 60s mitigation gaps, having something 60s long to plug it would balance well.

 

It would allow for:

 

T9>Rune>T9>Rune>T9>Rune>T9>Rune

 

Rune>Hybrid>Barrier60s>Rune>Hybrid>Barrier60s...

 

Not perfect. And there would probably be gaps in the T9 cycling (until they get buffed to 180s duration / 240s fixed recharge w/the crashes removed, anyway...), but given that the #1 complaint is players no longer being able to chain it, this seems like the obvious solution, whilst still keeping the 33% uptime.

 

It would also make the power as long as inspirations. Which feels right.

"A free break free and sturdy every 3 minutes"

is better than

"A free weaker break free and sturdy every 2 minutes"

IMO.

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

You're ignoring that "squishies" already have "absolute immunity" if they pick the right primary/secondary or carry a tray of breakfrees.

 

By the way, purples will offset that "no DDR" problem really well. Interestingly, a breakfree will "offset" that pesky auto-hit mez problem since you're very unlikely to get tagged with one that needs a ToHit roll in the first place.

 

You keep saying "absolute immunity" with regards to RoP and I just have to assume you don't play the game at this point.

 

Inspirations have limits, but by all means, try to pop purples against a group of Peacebringer PPD, or a group of Romans, and let me know how well you do. But yes, you're right, Break Frees exist, so why the complaints over RoP? Its basically a Break Free/Orange combination.

 

I'm saying absolute Immunity, because that was literally explained by the Dev during this post:
 

 

Quote

A single power should not be able to bridge a gap that results in entire parts of the game being obviated.

 

[ZeroXephon]

34 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

Call me crazy, but I'm really beginning to think that out of the 5% of people who actually took Sorcery (for therefore RoP) 100% of them maxed out recharge to get near immunity to Mez Protection, via RoP and chaining other powers together. Completely negating an entire aspect of the game that they should have had to worry about.

 

Which, was never the intention of how RoP should have been used. If your character doesn't have inherent Mez Protection, even from an Epic Power Pool, it shouldn't be able to get it via an Origin Power Pool that everyone can access.

 

Squishies should have to worry about Mez. Its really that simple.

No, having rune alone wont let you do that.  The only way you can kind of do that is if you pair it with melee core and alternate between then, and even then you will have a good 30-60s gap unless you have rune down to like 120s recharge.  This change makes rune damn near useless, what in turn makes the whole of sorcery pretty much pointless to take.  It puts sorcery in the same bin as the rest of the origin powers....worthless.  What should be happening is if anything, Runes duration getting knocked down from 90s to 80-60s, make it so you get mez protection and resists when used while mezed, or just totally leave it alone and instead buff the other origin power pools so they are not crap. 

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, ZeroXephon said:

No, having rune alone wont let you do that.  The only way you can kind of do that is if you pair it with melee core and alternate between then, and even then you will have a good 30-60s gap unless you have rune down to like 120s recharge.  This change makes rune damn near useless, what in turn makes the whole of sorcery pretty much pointless to take.  It puts sorcery in the same bin as the rest of the origin powers....worthless.  What should be happening is if anything, Runes duration getting knocked down from 90s to 80-60s, make it so you get mez protection and resists when used while mezed, or just totally leave it alone and instead buff the other origin power pools so they are not crap. 

 

I literally said "And chaining other powers together", so I wasn't just counting RoP.

 

How exactly does this make RoP useless? Other than preventing it from being used to chain together continual Mez Protection?

They are already adding the resistance aspect when used while Mez'ed, they have already said they would be changing the other Origin Power Pool T5s, and the flip side of RoP not being affected by Recharge, is that is also won't be affected by -Recharge. That's exactly how One With the Shield and the Will Power T9 works. The recharge doesn't go up or down.

[ZeroXephon]

2 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

I literally said "And chaining other powers together", so I wasn't just counting RoP.

 

How exactly does this make RoP useless? Other than preventing it from being used to chain together continual Mez Protection?

They are already adding the resistance aspect when used while Mez'ed, they have already said they would be changing the other Origin Power Pool T5s, and the flip side of RoP not being affected by Recharge, is that is also won't be affected by -Recharge. That's exactly how One With the Shield and the Will Power T9 works. The recharge doesn't go up or down.

Because even with chaining powers together now you dont get 100% up time.   You have to sacrifice a lot to get RoP's current recharge down to the point that its useful.   

[ForeverLaxx]

8 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

Inspirations have limits, but by all means, try to pop purples against a group of Peacebringer PPD, or a group of Romans, and let me know how well you do. But yes, you're right, Break Frees exist, so why the complaints over RoP? Its basically a Break Free/Orange combination.

 

I'm saying absolute Immunity, because that was literally explained by the Dev during this post:
 

 

 

Say it all you want. Their excuse, and your incessant desire to defend their excuse, has no basis on reality and only serves to carry the narrative that they want to nerf the power. We all see it, we've all accepted it, and some people are contemplating finding a new server because of it. It's bad precedent. I'm not returning to this topic and I probably won't provide feedback in any future feedback thread as I've been shown time and time again that a small handful of dev apologists circle the dissenters like sharks to vehemently defend dev changes that make no sense in the context of how the game is played. If dissenting feedback amounts to nothing, then there's no point in it and I don't partake in pointless ventures.

[Arbegla]

17 minutes ago, Puma said:

You're ignoring that a single -recharge affect from a single enemy ends your Mez Protection 100% immunity.  And also you're ignoring how much MORE helpeful and effective defense is to mez. Every single conflict in the game has damage coming at you that defense protects you against.   Much much fewer of them have mez coming at you.  

In point of fact, that's why I actually see RoP as mostly a res boost on the characters I have it, not a mez boost.  I don't usually select it for mez. I want the added resistance.  But that's beside the point. 

 

Multiple Mind Control powers have no positional tag, and Psi Defense is hard to come by (even when you softcap, most ATs can only get Ranged, or just Ranged/Melee/AoE, and don't have Psi also covered) Those also have mez (sleeps, holds, etc) so there's your hole in your defense. Go fight some Carnies with just Ranged softcapped, lemme know how well you do when you get chain held through your defense.

 

Defense is limited by the combat equation. And cascading failure happens a lot. Literally every single enemy group has -defense. Higher ranking enemies have Accurary boosts, which makes their 'tohit' floor higher then 5%. Also, there are plenty of autohit attacks, which defense does nothing to stop.

They aren't changing anything with the resistance aspect, they are actually making the resistance more useful, as it will benefit you when you use RoP while under Mez (it currently doesn't do that) so what exactly is the problem?

[Arbegla]

14 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Say it all you want. Their excuse, and your incessant desire to defend their excuse, has no basis on reality and only serves to carry the narrative that they want to nerf the power. We all see it, we've all accepted it, and some people are contemplating finding a new server because of it. It's bad precedent. I'm not returning to this topic and I probably won't provide feedback in any future feedback thread as I've been shown time and time again that a small handful of dev apologists circle the dissenters like sharks to vehemently defend dev changes that make no sense in the context of how the game is played. If dissenting feedback amounts to nothing, then there's no point in it and I don't partake in pointless ventures.

 

At the end of the day, the bulk of the 'Nerfs' have been to powers or powersets that weren't given the time of day to be properly tested and vetted on live. Crashless Nukes, Sorcery, Bio Armor, etc were all things that were NOT available during live. So I'm sorry that the current Devs have to go back and rebalance things that simply weren't balanced to begin with. This happens with any game, in any era, in any genre. For all intents and purposes, those powers and powersets were released to the 'wild' as Beta powers and powersets. Untested, Unvetted, and subject to change.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Arbegla

[zenblack]

26 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

You're ignoring that "squishies" already have "absolute immunity" if they pick the right primary/secondary or carry a tray of breakfrees.

 

You keep saying this like it's real. It's absolutely false. If you need a "Tray full of Breakfrees" your problem is playing the game, not the powers in the game.

[Puma]

35 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

At the end of the day, the bulk of the 'Nerfs' have been to powers or powersets that weren't given the time of day to be properly tested and vetted on live. Crashless Nukes, Sorcery, Bio Armor, etc were all things that were NOT available during live. So I'm sorry that the current Devs have to go back and rebalance things that simply weren't balanced to begin with. This happens with any game, in any era, in any genre. For all intents and purposes, those powers and powersets were released to the 'wild' as Beta powers and powersets. Untested, Unvetted, and subject to change.

Pssst.  Secret:  These devs aren't infallible.  Their view of how the game should work isn't "the right" view.  They don't even all agree on it, or at least haven't always, specifically this group.  And that's not a bad thing, btw.  It's very GOOD that we have a community contribute to development instead of one hand ruling by dictate. 

And they asked for feedback.  They don't HAVE to go back and rebalance things if they don't want to.  In point of fact, the very things you claim were released as "beta" powers (which is false, btw. They've been adapted and used for years before HC came in to being) have been used for years and ARE being used right now and the game is playing just fine.  Have you heard of anyone leaving because RoP was just too powerful?  Anyone you quit the server because blasters had just become so dang powerful post-shut down?

No? Me either. 

And yet here we are making "balances" that ARE driving away people, including people who have been helping this server and its development since at LEAST its beginning, if not before.  

If that's balance...OK.  I guess I just don't understand the scale they're using to measure that balance, because to me, it's doing far more harm than good.  

Edited April 7, 2021 by Puma

[Puma]

8 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Hyperbole to make a point. A "tray of breakfrees" is exactly the so-called "problem" the devs and apologists want to pretend exists because of Rune of Protection. If being "immune to mez" is such a problem, then having innumerable breakfrees on hand thanks to the email system and how much of a pittance they are from vendors should be looked at, too. As it stands, RoP is only "good" if you have 2 other powers and an Incarnate to cycle with it, sacrificing other options and still be weaker in the the context of the game's combat design than the standard Defense Cap Chase.

 
Hell...we can now right click and "auto create" breakfrees from any three other insps in our tray.  They literally made it EASIER to counter mezz via breakfrees than via using powers like RoP.  

This whole line of logic is...flawed.  

[Riverdusk]

52 minutes ago, Puma said:

Wait...if we're adding in incarnate powers then you have to add in Ageless and Barrier to your "limitations" to the controller example. 

So no...it's really not that simple. 

Yes.  A person who
A:  Takes the sorcery pool and sacrifices at least three powers choices to get RoP 
B:  Takes other powers that add to their recharge
C.:  Takes enough defense powers to slot 5 LoTGs for recharge boosts
D.: works the rest of their IO sets to add recharge 
E: Unlocks all incarnate powers and slots two very specific ones
COULD THEORETICALLY work it so they're permanently at the mez protection cap with enough micromanaging. But...honestly...between Clarion and melee hybrid you'd be there anyway for 95% or more of the game. 

But anyway, meanwhile a controller who
A:  Takes pool powers that grant defense (like Combat Jumping, Maneuvers, and weave)
B:  Takes other powers that add to their defense
C.:  Takes powers that allow set bonuses for defense
D.: takes a defense based APP/PP
E: Unlocks all incarnate powers and slots two very specific ones like Barrier or Melee or Support hybrids 
Could THEORETICALLY work it so they're permanently at the defense cap even when facing enemies who debuff defense with some micromanaging.


And you know what?  Both deserve it.  Because the person worked their butt off and made sacrifices to get there to shore up their weaknesses, and there will always be SOME enemies where it won't matter because their attacks are unresistable anyway.  

 

As a controller it is even easier as they have a third option.  Take Psi mastery epic and indomitable will.  10 mag protect against hold/stun/sleep and even terrorize and confuse.  90 second uptime with a 360 recharge, so you can actually perma it with a very high recharge build (same recharge as required to perma phantom army).  Available at level 35 with no prerequisites.   No resistance, but you do get some nice psi defense too, which can be hard to get.  Only drawback is being locked into psi mastery, but I find it is a decent epic pool even outside of indom will (mind over body and psi tornado are both nice enough and worth taking imo).    

 

That they find RoP overpowered on a squishy and not indom will is what I find...odd.  Course it makes me wonder if they don't have their eye on nerfing indom will next...

[Coyotedancer]

1 hour ago, Arbegla said:

Call me crazy, but I'm really beginning to think that out of the 5% of people who actually took Sorcery (for therefore RoP) 100% of them maxed out recharge to get near immunity to Mez Protection, via RoP and chaining other powers together. Completely negating an entire aspect of the game that they should have had to worry about.

 

Which, was never the intention of how RoP should have been used. If your character doesn't have inherent Mez Protection, even from an Epic Power Pool, it shouldn't be able to get it via an Origin Power Pool that everyone can access.

 

Squishies should have to worry about Mez. Its really that simple.

 

Nope.

 

Like I specifically said in my post about testing the prior version, my Mastermind doesn't even have Hasten.  Amtes isn't a recharge-focused character.

 

That's actually one of the reasons I liked the longer duration. If I hit RoP, I could be pretty sure that at 90 seconds it would last long enough to finish the particular fight I needed to use it in... Which was good, because I *also* knew it wasn't going to be back quickly enough to use it a second time. 

 

The current version coming back more quickly is fine as far as that goes, but at 40 second duration? I find it going down in the middle of things, when there are still mushrooms standing. (Solo-only, remember. My demons are tough as nails... but without a team to help destroy things? They're not always assured of clearing out big groups of goons quite THAT quickly, especially given the "runner" issue.)  

[Troo]

59 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

It would allow for:

 

T9>Rune>T9>Rune>T9>Rune>T9>Rune

 

Rune>Hybrid>Barrier60s>Rune>Hybrid>Barrier60s...

 

I thought this is what they are trying to get rid of / avoid. (near gap-less chaining)

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, Puma said:

Pssst.  Secret:  These devs aren't infallible.  Their view of how the game should work isn't "the right" view.  They don't even all agree on it, and have been through more than one change of guard over time about it.  

And they asked for feedback.  They don't HAVE to go back and rebalance things if they don't want to.  In point of fact, the very things you claim were released as "beta" powers (which is false, btw. They've been adapted and used for years before HC came in to being) have been used for years and ARE being used right now and the game is playing just fine.  Have you heard of anyone leaving because RoP was just too powerful?  Anyone you quit the server because blasters had just become so dang powerful post-shut down?

No? Me either. 

And yet here we are making "balances" that ARE driving away people, including people who have been helping this server and its development since at LEAST its beginning, if not before.  

If that's balance...OK.  I guess I just don't understand the scale they're using to measure that balance, because to me, it's doing far more harm than good.  

 

I have actually heard, and seen, plenty of people leave because the game became too easy, because things weren't a challenge, because powers were simply too powerful. I know quite a few people who got 1 character to max level, got some IOs in them, and then bounced, because it just wasn't a challenge anymore.

 

If you're talking about SCoRE, that was a subset of a subset of another subset. At most the servers that SCoRE ran topped out at what? 1,000 people? maybe 1,500? It wasn't exactly the scale of testing and vetting that you would need for some of those powers and powersets. It simply wasn't. Now that Homecoming has a MUCH larger player base, with numbers greater than 10,000 (didn't we break something like 15,000 concurrent accounts on or more already?) some powers are getting evaluated through a tighter lens, and being adjusted. 

 

Heck, the player base on live was between 50,000 and 100,000 players, and the Devs there still made adjustments to powers and powersets years after they were released, based solely on how the powers and powersets were evaluated at that time. (Regen, Energy Aura, Inherent Fitness, etc)

[Troo]

24 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

scale of testing and vetting that you would need for some of those powers and powersets

 

okay, I've seen this enough to chime in.

 

While you could be correct with part of your statements, other parts are missing the mark.

 

Just FYI, what you may be missing is the former NC Soft paywall. Sets/powers/abilities which were intentionally superior in some fashion to drive sales

• "Titan Weapons is a primary Power Set for Brutes and Scrappers, and a secondary Power Set for Tankers. This premium power set is available for 800 Paragon Points on the Paragon Market for Free and Premium Players; VIP Players must also purchase this set."
• "Sorcery is one of the Power Pools available on the Paragon Market."
• "The Paragon Market was introduced with Issue 21/City of Heroes Freedom. The Paragon Market is technically an RMT option sponsored by NCsoft instead of breaking the EULA by buying from "gold farmers". Players can buy Paragon Points with real money, and then purchase items, costumes, archetypes, powersets, and content in the Paragon Market; 400 Paragon Points are also awarded monthly for keeping a VIP subscription (550 for VIPs who have completed Tier 8)."

Those intentionally overpowered aspects are now outliers and easy pickings for alignment.

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Troo

[Arbegla]

5 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

okay, I've seen this enough to chime in.

 

While you could be correct with part of your statements, other parts are missing the mark.

 

Just FYI, what you may be missing is the former NC Soft paywall. Sets/powers/abilities which were intentionally superior in some fashion to drive sales

• "Titan Weapons is a primary Power Set for Brutes and Scrappers, and a secondary Power Set for Tankers. This premium power set is available for 800 Paragon Points on the Paragon Market for Free and Premium Players; VIP Players must also purchase this set."
• "Sorcery is one of the Power Pools available on the Paragon Market."
• "The Paragon Market was introduced with Issue 21/City of Heroes Freedom. The Paragon Market is technically an RMT option sponsored by NCsoft instead of breaking the EULA by buying from "gold farmers". Players can buy Paragon Points with real money, and then purchase items, costumes, archetypes, powersets, and content in the Paragon Market; 400 Paragon Points are also awarded monthly for keeping a VIP subscription (550 for VIPs who have completed Tier 8)."

 

 

Oh I agree, but we're not paying for those things anymore. So they need to be rebalanced accordingly right?

[Troo]

yep

[PeregrineFalcon]

Ok, so the Council of 13's response to our complaints about the nerf to Rune of Protection was to nerf it even further. Ok, fine. Can one of the Council please post explain why we shouldn't be concerned about Domination next?

 

After all, with enough recharge Domination gives a squishy permanent mez protection, which is one of the stated goals of nerfing Rune of Protection. Anyone who can spot a pattern should believe that perma-Dom is therefore next on the hit list, as it is the only other power that allows a non-incarnate squishy to have permanent mez protection.

[Arbegla]

41 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

As a controller it is even easier as they have a third option.  Take Psi mastery epic and indomitable will.  10 mag protect against hold/stun/sleep and even terrorize and confuse.  90 second uptime with a 360 recharge, so you can actually perma it with a very high recharge build (same recharge as required to perma phantom army).  Available at level 35 with no prerequisites.   No resistance, but you do get some nice psi defense too, which can be hard to get.  Only drawback is being locked into psi mastery, but I find it is a decent epic pool even outside of indom will (mind over body and psi tornado are both nice enough and worth taking imo).    

 

That they find RoP overpowered on a squishy and not indom will is what I find...odd.  Course it makes me wonder if they don't have their eye on nerfing indom will next...

 

The big thing is RoP is available to EVERYONE. and Indom Will is only available to Controllers, and only if they take Psi Mastery (and the other Epic Power Pools are powerful enough to make that an actual choice, not a must have.)

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, so the Council of 13's response to our complaints about the nerf to Rune of Protection was to nerf it even further. Ok, fine. Can one of the Council please post explain why we shouldn't be concerned about Domination next?

 

After all, with enough recharge Domination gives a squishy permanent mez protection, which is one of the stated goals of nerfing Rune of Protection. Anyone who can spot a pattern should believe that perma-Dom is therefore next on the hit list, as it is the only other power that allows a non-incarnate squishy to have permanent mez protection.

 

Pretty sure this falls into the same category as Indom Will for Controllers. And also its an aspect of Dominators that has been around since the beginning of Dominators, not something that was thrown on a Paragon Market intentionally overpowered and never toned down until now.