I don't understand Sentinel, please help

[Underfyre]

48 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

Same: I'm not a fan of "assault"/blapping.  I prefer completely ranged, which is why I like Sentinels and skip all of the melee powers in the secondaries when I play a Blaster.

 

Thinking about it, it would be taking everything that makes a Blapper, condensing it to a single primary, then giving it a Defense secondary. Literally stepping on Blasters toes. Not a good idea.

[Rathulfr]

4 minutes ago, underfyre said:

Thinking about it, it would be taking everything that makes a Blapper, condensing it to a single primary, then giving it a Defense secondary. Literally stepping on Blasters toes. Not a good idea.

 

Sentinels already do this now, so I don't think it really matters.  As some already argue: "why do we even want/need Sentinels when Blasters can do the same thing, but better?"  Once you build out a Blaster with complete IO sets to buff their defenses, Sentinels become pointless. 

 

And remember: this is coming from someone (me) who actually likes Sentinels.  They're my second favorite AT, precisely because they're so similar to my first favorite AT, Blasters (see sig below).

 

[Underfyre]

15 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Sentinels already do this now, so I don't think it really matters.  As some already argue: "why do we even want/need Sentinels when Blasters can do the same thing, but better?"  Once you build out a Blaster with complete IO sets to buff their defenses, Sentinels become pointless. 

I mean they don't technically do this. A pure ranged Blaster doesn't do what a Blapper does. Doing what a Blapper does has an inherent risk/reward to it that can be mitigated slightly by stacking defenses. But they don't have DDR, they don't have status resists, so if the wrong thing starts coming in they may end up eating pavement. A pure ranged Blaster will likely not have to deal with those problems at the cost of damage potential.

 

Sentinels? They have the DDR and status resists, and not the same level of Blapping potential with only Cross Punch and 1 melee attack from epic pools. But those do have the capacity to increase damage, depending on the set. I'm not asking for Blapper damage, I'm asking for better than current damage. Change the base scalar, change the inherent, whatever.

[drbuzzard]

25 minutes ago, underfyre said:

I mean they don't technically do this. A pure ranged Blaster doesn't do what a Blapper does. Doing what a Blapper does has an inherent risk/reward to it that can be mitigated slightly by stacking defenses. But they don't have DDR, they don't have status resists, so if the wrong thing starts coming in they may end up eating pavement. A pure ranged Blaster will likely not have to deal with those problems at the cost of damage potential.

At 50 a blaster can have perma status protection via clarion, or they can just buy a defense amplifer and have a bit which is usually enough on a defense build. If they rely on the amplifier, they can do radial ageless and get some DDR. Granted, this is also a budget version of sentinel defenses and only at endgame, but the sentinel can never get blaster damage. 

[Underfyre]

2 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

but the sentinel can never get blaster damage. 

 

Blaster puts in leg work and makes sacrifices to become Sentinel-ish, Sentinel can't put in leg work and make sacrifices to do the same.

[Rathulfr]

34 minutes ago, underfyre said:

Blaster puts in leg work and makes sacrifices to become Sentinel-ish, Sentinel can't put in leg work and make sacrifices to do the same.

 

I usually frame this as: "you can make a more tanky Blaster, but you can't make a more blasty Sentinel".  There simply aren't as many IO sets for Sentinels that add more damage, even though there are plenty of IO sets for Blasters that add more defense/resistance.

 

[Rathulfr]

1 hour ago, underfyre said:

I mean they don't technically do this. A pure ranged Blaster doesn't do what a Blapper does. Doing what a Blapper does has an inherent risk/reward to it that can be mitigated slightly by stacking defenses. But they don't have DDR, they don't have status resists, so if the wrong thing starts coming in they may end up eating pavement. A pure ranged Blaster will likely not have to deal with those problems at the cost of damage potential.

 

Sentinels? They have the DDR and status resists, and not the same level of Blapping potential with only Cross Punch and 1 melee attack from epic pools. But those do have the capacity to increase damage, depending on the set. I'm not asking for Blapper damage, I'm asking for better than current damage. Change the base scalar, change the inherent, whatever.

 

I meant that Sentinels already step on Blasters' toes, by sharing their Blast primary power sets.  Swapping out a few of those primary powers to make them Assault powers also steps on Blaster toes, albeit in a slightly different way.  Tomato tomahto.

 

[drbuzzard]

22 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

I usually frame this as: "you can make a more tanky Blaster, but you can't make a more blasty Sentinel".  There simply aren't as many IO sets for Sentinels that add more damage, even though there are plenty of IO sets for Blasters that add more defense/resistance.

 

 

Yeah, the usual method for sentinel boosting is to take one of the proc compatible primaries (rad, DP) and load up on procs. Thing is, you make sacrifices when doing this by giving up set bonuses. IMO the best thing going for the sentinel primaries is the fast recharging nukes, and if you can't get recharge set bonuses from your primary, you're not optimizing the best thing in the primary by making them available more. You also have to make the counterintuitive slotting of avoiding recharge reduction. It's a clunky solution IMO, so I generally don't do it (have one alt that way, but only one of 20ish sents). 

[Underfyre]

1 hour ago, Rathulfr said:

 

I meant that Sentinels already step on Blasters' toes, by sharing their Blast primary power sets.  Swapping out a few of those primary powers to make them Assault powers also steps on Blaster toes, albeit in a slightly different way.  Tomato tomahto.

 

 

Defenders and Corruptors have the same blast sets too. Corruptors are even more offense oriented than Defenders. But like I said earlier, making them Assault sets would essentially turn Sentinels into Blappers with Defense secondaries.  At that point it officially turns into "Why play a Blaster?" Especially if the damage got bumped up.

[Bill Z Bubba]

22 minutes ago, underfyre said:

Defenders and Corruptors have the same blast sets too. Corruptors are even more offense oriented than Defenders. But like I said earlier, making them Assault sets would essentially turn Sentinels into Blappers with Defense secondaries.  At that point it officially turns into "Why play a Blaster?" Especially if the damage got bumped up.

 

Being currently plagued with the "why play a brute" mentality, I can fully grok this.

 

I'd still find it very interesting if the dominator earth assault set was copied to sents with no changes at all other than setting the damage modifiers to sentinel level. I know I'd play the crap out of it.

 

Edit: I guess you'd have to replace powerup with aim.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[siolfir]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'd still find it very interesting if the dominator earth assault set was copied to sents with no changes at all other than setting the damage modifiers to sentinel level. I know I'd play the crap out of it.

The ranged attacks would stay the same, but the Sentinel modifier would lower the damage on the melee attacks (Dominators are at 1.05 for melee).

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, siolfir said:

The ranged attacks would stay the same, but the Sentinel modifier would lower the damage on the melee attacks (Dominators are at 1.05 for melee).

 

I'd be ok with that.

[Sovera]

4 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

 

Sentinels already do this now, so I don't think it really matters.  As some already argue: "why do we even want/need Sentinels when Blasters can do the same thing, but better?"  Once you build out a Blaster with complete IO sets to buff their defenses, Sentinels become pointless. 

 

And remember: this is coming from someone (me) who actually likes Sentinels.  They're my second favorite AT, precisely because they're so similar to my first favorite AT, Blasters (see sig below).

 

 

The argument that 'Sentinels step on Scrapper/Blaster toes' is odd. We already have Brutes, Scrappers and Stalkers who all generously tap dance on each other's toes competing for DPS rankings with small differences in survival (on his own a Brute has as much survival as the Scrapper and Stalker).

 

Removing the target cap from the Sentinel would, IMO, let it step rather on a ranged Tanker mode (without the agro grabbing of a real tank). Just like a Tanker it would do less damage than a real damage class, and, just like the current Tanker, it would be an AoE machine able to throw nukes at every spawn unlike every other ranged that does it every two spawns.

 

So a Blaster would do more damage in ST but if we had a damage parser at the end of a mission the Sentinel might just be there by the Blaster's side because it pulped more mobs.

 

But this requires removing the stupid target caps. It needs to hi the whole pack, not 3/4ths of it.

[drbuzzard]

18 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

The argument that 'Sentinels step on Scrapper/Blaster toes' is odd. We already have Brutes, Scrappers and Stalkers who all generously tap dance on each other's toes competing for DPS rankings with small differences in survival (on his own a Brute has as much survival as the Scrapper and Stalker).

 

Removing the target cap from the Sentinel would, IMO, let it step rather on a ranged Tanker mode (without the agro grabbing of a real tank). Just like a Tanker it would do less damage than a real damage class, and, just like the current Tanker, it would be an AoE machine able to throw nukes at every spawn unlike every other ranged that does it every two spawns.

 

So a Blaster would do more damage in ST but if we had a damage parser at the end of a mission the Sentinel might just be there by the Blaster's side because it pulped more mobs.

 

But this requires removing the stupid target caps. It needs to hi the whole pack, not 3/4ths of it.

This really isn't a bad idea at all. The defenses really do justify the ability to pull more aggro from AOEs. It would still leave fixing the inherent. Perhaps couple adjusting the AOE caps with the negative scourge suggested elsewhere and it makes sentinels into a ranged alpha eater option to tanks as the melee alpha eater. 

[DarknessEternal]

8 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

 

I usually frame this as: "you can make a more tanky Blaster, but you can't make a more blasty Sentinel".  There simply aren't as many IO sets for Sentinels that add more damage, even though there are plenty of IO sets for Blasters that add more defense/resistance.

 

This is an IO problem, and not really a Sentinel/Blaster problem. 

 

IOs largely only improve characters across 2 vectors: recharge and defense.  Some may say resistance, but not nearly as efficiently as those other two.

 

Damage set bonuses are impotent.

 

That being the case, I now now understand one should never use IOs on a Sentinel for durability.  If you're going to be out on the edge, just let your armor set do it's job, you're not needed to be a tank.  Focus entirely on offense.  This unfortunately means only recharge right now.

[drbuzzard]

Well as always YMMV, but sentinel defenses will not softcap anything without IO help (even with pool powers). I want my defensive sentinels softcapped, and my resistance ones as resistant as I can get them. This requires a fair bit of IO work. However I always get them to perma hasten in addition to this, so I don't feel a problem with my approach. When you need to do procs, recharge, and defenses, then you have issues. 

 

Mind you I build my sentinels to do stupid hero tricks, where I run off and solo +4 ITF spawns just to see if I can, and I usually can. 

[DarknessEternal]

You don't need softcap to be unkillable when you have any kind of armor set.  It's overkill, even at very high difficulty.

[drbuzzard]

2 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

You don't need softcap to be unkillable when you have any kind of armor set.  It's overkill, even at very high difficulty.

Ok, you dive into a +4x8 spawn by yourself on an ITF and see how long you last without being optimized. Hint, it won't be long. Yes, you could hoverblast, but in tunnels, that doesn't really work. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by drbuzzard

[Underfyre]

24 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

Ok, you dive into a +4x8 spawn by yourself on an ITF and see how long you last without being optimized. Hint, it won't be long. Yes, you could hoverblast, but in tunnels, that doesn't really work. 

 

2 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

You don't need softcap to be unkillable when you have any kind of armor set.  It's overkill, even at very high difficulty.

 

Or dive into the 4/8 Trapdoor mission on your */Fire Sent that has neither capped Defense or Resists. See how long it is before they knock you out.

[drbuzzard]

1 minute ago, underfyre said:

 

 

Or dive into the 4/8 Trapdoor mission on your */Fire Sent that has neither capped Defense or Resists. See how long it is before they knock you out.

Yeah, that would get you splatted quick. 

[DarknessEternal]

Ok, I'll rescind my comment to an armor set that actually provides durability.  It ain't Fire.

 

But sure, I'll give it a  go.

Edited May 20, 2021 by DarknessEternal

[Sovera]

2 hours ago, underfyre said:

Or dive into the 4/8 Trapdoor mission on your */Fire Sent that has neither capped Defense or Resists. See how long it is before they knock you out.

 

Heck, tried the Trapdoor three times on my 45% S/L, 75% S/L/E/N /Fire and three times it was chewed and spat out. Can't hover blaster and the debuffs made short work of the defenses.

[Underfyre]

1 minute ago, Sovera said:

 

Heck, tried the Trapdoor three times on my 45% S/L, 75% S/L/E/N /Fire and three times it was chewed and spat out. Can't hover blaster and the debuffs made short work of the defenses.

 

the Psi heavy packs of Arachnos don't care about your petty S/L defenses.

[drbuzzard]

Yeah, it's rather like in mission 2 of an ITF. You're stuck in a tunnel, and if you hit a cyst with cimerorans and khelds you're in deep doo doo. The cimerorans will chew up your defense, and then the energy damage and slows will get you. If you have a past softcapped SR sent and you just kill the cyst you can solo it. Most other builds are toast (I've tried a lot of mixes). 

Edited May 21, 2021 by drbuzzard

[DarknessEternal]

Ok, sent this Fire Armor build into +4/x8 Trapdoor.  Encountered no issues whatsoever.  Wasn't even using Accuracy Inspirations because I forgot those were a suggestion for Trapdoor testing.  No deaths, not even close.

 

Couldn't figure out how to get to Cimerora or missions containing their faction easily on beta.  Try again tomorrow if I can figure that out.

 

Don't know how to export that little data build so this is the best I can do:

https://www.midsreborn.com/builds/download.php?uc=1464&c=671&a=1342&f=HEX&dc=78DA5D93C94F136118C6BFA153B02D3B85964D6C815AB6A1A088D18351110ED0A4827A334D85B1D434055B70397AF4EA85936B5CC085BFC4056F2E785711352E514FF5ED3C8FEDC44926BF779EEF7BD76FBEE8A5B1CAF5892B8794567D349DC8E5E2336666299531D3CE6822999A5585A742DE967F7A7C3A91499A73C6782A6BC68F88CB526B7169CC3C6B6672A6AC99D9CBF1C3CBD984F2C41616D2C6783A959C5F725BF6CCA269CE55412EA8A94CB2C6FA9A3213736636379F5AF41F5B4CCD1AC5B0D1E57854F2484CBF54D223EF4248F1C93BD575C190AE5A6E803B6F92B7C8DBE0AE3BE06858A859BEBAFAE1B0B4B29FE42F70C76F72183C1FA28BE4D35EE996E67D4DBE019BDE929B60CB3BD025E373309FA351B334DD4BD682E593C853FE1DCC4A3E277C9CCEFE324B730F900658394846C0EA2170597C2BE85B71976BF7C0DAFBE403B07E955C03F7CB6C5CF055AE00E67540340F358F4F8C765D05A5A72A6865557D9CEF7F3C287E35D8E3A8E19C039C7380730E70CE17A4E63AD65CB78AB975AE910FC94760D763F209A8492D0D381BD590974739446964E64666EE62E6103387FE80BAECF5B1131F4FC7CF53F1F3942E4A75CDACAE7918930AED0177EF2547C87D60CF285827F15B19BF95F1DB18BF8DF1EB654F3B3B68E7D4AF4ACE0EE6EC788A4E079E91CFC917A0B141BE04D7E58A04E91B7C8F3E7B3F901FC1FE2DF213B90D7E13DF6EFA769F400FBD27C1C118799C9C0623336083F411E69F121E11E80EE515AD8FBDF5B17F8F6806356313BEAA49A908B508F79D2B5C75CD59D0F26D7AF1C6173EE594A7EC8A0B51627AF19E2ACDDAB5ED168535699D98ED67BB1686F6A5A469DA29E4EF0960265FED6BD778BE2BE0A4FC7A4358CB4FF84A76CC5DB2CFD8EC84CD3E6DB383DE92BDD555B2576CF1D78225FB2FFA90E249