Fixing Melee Regeneration set

[WindDemon21]

 Unlike SR, which I fullheartedly think should have the straight up port from sentinel SR powers, Regen has been known to need an update more than any other melee armor. Suggestions:

 

First and foremost, if literally nothing else, Reconstruction needs to be absorb, instead of a heal, keeping the same value, and same rech, or possibly a 40 or 45s recharge. Unlike the sentinel toggle absorb, this would benefit it better on melee to give it a big absorb shield first to take the alpha better which has always been one of regens sore spots. It would also work better with the rest of regens powers, instead of being almost skippable on a final build as a heal that it is now.

 

Considering how much regen is based on, well, regen, it should also between fast healing and integration be at the 95% -regen resistance cap. Integration should also allow you to fully enhance all of it's regen, not just a portion of it.

 

IMO these two things should be non-negotiable to fixing regen. It could still use some other changes as such that would help it a lot and make it super fun and better at lower levels as well:

 

Dull Pain: swap to the sentinel auto hp power, could have some of the -regen resistance in this power as well. This would result in making regen better in the earlier levels, but would give it a lower max hp value in the endgame versus perma dull pain. With the other changes proposed here as well though, would help to make up for that and result in a much better net performance across all levels of play.

 

Resilience: bump up it's resistance from 9.38% to 15% (20% if tanks ever get it) and add some slow resistance too.

 

Quick Recovery: add end drain/-recovery resistance scaling with level like other armor sets have in their auto powers that do so. Maybe add a damage boost for alpha strikes too similar to the ninjitsu crit boost after 8s of not attacking.

 

Would also suggest to move integration to level 10, and QR to level 16

 

[Mr Pierce]

I had always thought that giving Regen an "overheal" mechanic would be really neat. Essentially once you're at full health, any and all regen you have is converted into an absorb shield. It would require a maximum, probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-30% depending on the AT.

 

That said I do love some of the changes made to the set on Sentinels. The passive +HP is a great change.

 

Speaking of SR on Sentinels, I wish they would clean up the whole Practiced Brawler/Master Brawler nonsense. Make one power that is a combination of the two OR make them dramatically different so that you take both. It's a really poorly implemented change that needs to be fixed. Otherwise I agree.

[MTeague]

I'm with you on the Regen Debuff Resistance being stacked out the wazoo, just like /SR gets Defense Debuff Resistance out the wazoo, to protect their whole thing.

I can't get on board with a precastable Absorb Shield.  I know they went there for Sents and frankly, I'll never make a Regen Sent because of it.

 

For me the feel and intent of Regen should be that I DO take damage.  My green bar DOES move. It just heals right back up afterwards.

I do not care how much of that is passive vs toggles vs clicks.

I don't mind it being click heavy.

 

Maybe something that kicks in as health drops....., so that you're not that hard to hurt, but extremely hard to put down, and spend most of the time with a green bar pinging back and forth between 50% and 100%?  But I don't want Ablative Carapace by another name as something intended to heal damage before it even happens. 

 

 

[WindDemon21]

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

I'm with you on the Regen Debuff Resistance being stacked out the wazoo, just like /SR gets Defense Debuff Resistance out the wazoo, to protect their whole thing.

I can't get on board with a precastable Absorb Shield.  I know they went there for Sents and frankly, I'll never make a Regen Sent because of it.

 

For me the feel and intent of Regen should be that I DO take damage.  My green bar DOES move. It just heals right back up afterwards.

I do not care how much of that is passive vs toggles vs clicks.

I don't mind it being click heavy.

 

Maybe something that kicks in as health drops....., so that you're not that hard to hurt, but extremely hard to put down, and spend most of the time with a green bar pinging back and forth between 50% and 100%?  But I don't want Ablative Carapace by another name as something intended to heal damage before it even happens. 

 

 

That was the reason I said for it not being a toggle, but it's main use after the alpha would be to block damage consistently SO your regen can actually do its job. So it's like a heal in that it makes your other regen powers do their stuff. A heal on top of regen, is just pointless, unnecessary, and useless. That is WHY they did the absorb toggle on sentinels.

 

Changing reconstruction to Absorb is the defacto number one change that regen needs.

[Outrider_01]

Nerf Regen

 

There, its fixed.  Every time they nerf it, its a buff 😉

[Naraka]

13 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

 

Changing reconstruction to Absorb is the defacto number one change that regen needs.

Eh, but Regen functions just fine as is. It also plays differently overall.

 

I'm indifferent to your suggestion. I'm not going to go on a crusade to swing people's opinion one way or the other as any changes are at the whims of the HC devs. I think it will make Regen better to give it an absorb shield but it might also make it very one-note, relying on that click shield more so than it's other powers.  Giving the Regen set comprehensive debuffs resist to nearly all and stackable using it's clicks would be more unique, flavorful and make it tops on teams.

 

Only takes a bit (around 6-8%) per click with maybe a static 10% to resilience or integration to most effects (-movement, -rech, -regen, -ToHit, -def, -END, -recovery). Make Revive usable while alive that adds a bit of debuffs resistance (60sec if revived from dead and 120sec if used while alive).  Every time you heal, everytime you click a Regen power, you're progressively more difficult to affect with powers to degenerate your abilities.

[Steampunkette]

16 hours ago, MTeague said:

I'm with you on the Regen Debuff Resistance being stacked out the wazoo, just like /SR gets Defense Debuff Resistance out the wazoo, to protect their whole thing.

I can't get on board with a precastable Absorb Shield.  I know they went there for Sents and frankly, I'll never make a Regen Sent because of it.

 

For me the feel and intent of Regen should be that I DO take damage.  My green bar DOES move. It just heals right back up afterwards.

I do not care how much of that is passive vs toggles vs clicks.

I don't mind it being click heavy.

 

Maybe something that kicks in as health drops....., so that you're not that hard to hurt, but extremely hard to put down, and spend most of the time with a green bar pinging back and forth between 50% and 100%?  But I don't want Ablative Carapace by another name as something intended to heal damage before it even happens. 

 

 

How about this for a change...

 

Dull Pain and Durable Regeneration as mutually exclusive options.

 

Durable Regeneration is a Toggle which increases Max HP by half the value of Dull Pain and provides a 20 second duration Absorb Value equal to the other half of Dull Pain's max HP increase every 20 seconds which dissipates if the toggle is removed. The Absorb Shield is not enhanceable, while the HP Increase value is enhanceable. There is no heal effect of the toggle.

 

Then a player could aim to take alpha strikes with their small absorb value (267 at level 50) while losing out on a portion of the max HP buff which decreases the effectiveness of all of their other regen-centric powers and gain a small cyclical absorb shield to slow down their HP's drop to the tune of 13hp/sec which is about equal to +115% regeneration as an up-front value.

 

For reference: Dull Pain on full power increases your HP/S from Regen by about 10 outside of Instant Healing and by about 50 during Instant Healing. It would lose about 1/3rd of it's overall power. So Durable Regeneration would cost you about 3hp/s regen from Fast Healing and Integration, and a further 15hp/s regen during Instant Healing for a constant 13hps. Lose 18, gain 13, but those 13 function as a shield...

 

... I think it could work.

[Alchemystic]

Sorry to be the rain on your parade but I think Captain Powerhouse stated that he doesn't want to put more 'mutually exclusive' picks into powersets like he did with Sentinel's Super Reflexes.

 

Still a pretty neat idea all the same though.

[Steampunkette]

29 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Sorry to be the rain on your parade but I think Captain Powerhouse stated that he doesn't want to put more 'mutually exclusive' picks into powersets like he did with Sentinel's Super Reflexes.

 

Still a pretty neat idea all the same though.

Damn. You're right. Back in September of 2019 he stated we wouldn't see more exclusive power choices for the Forseeable future.

 

In fact Master Brawler was an experiment that was supposed to be reverted 'cause it's a bit of a hack job in the code, but they didn't, and now people love it, so it's remaining.

 

Well... still! There's always hope for the unforseen future from 2019...

[WindDemon21]

35 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Sorry to be the rain on your parade but I think Captain Powerhouse stated that he doesn't want to put more 'mutually exclusive' picks into powersets like he did with Sentinel's Super Reflexes.

 

Still a pretty neat idea all the same though.

Personally, I don't see why this is an issue outside of maybe being a coding nightmare perhaps. I would love more mutually exclusive power picks if it meant more options for sets that need help.

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

How about this for a change...

 

Dull Pain and Durable Regeneration as mutually exclusive options.

 

Durable Regeneration is a Toggle which increases Max HP by half the value of Dull Pain and provides a 20 second duration Absorb Value equal to the other half of Dull Pain's max HP increase every 20 seconds which dissipates if the toggle is removed. The Absorb Shield is not enhanceable, while the HP Increase value is enhanceable. There is no heal effect of the toggle.

 

Then a player could aim to take alpha strikes with their small absorb value (267 at level 50) while losing out on a portion of the max HP buff which decreases the effectiveness of all of their other regen-centric powers and gain a small cyclical absorb shield to slow down their HP's drop to the tune of 13hp/sec which is about equal to +115% regeneration as an up-front value.

 

For reference: Dull Pain on full power increases your HP/S from Regen by about 10 outside of Instant Healing and by about 50 during Instant Healing. It would lose about 1/3rd of it's overall power. So Durable Regeneration would cost you about 3hp/s regen from Fast Healing and Integration, and a further 15hp/s regen during Instant Healing for a constant 13hps. Lose 18, gain 13, but those 13 function as a shield...

 

... I think it could work.

I would be happy with this for the people that would want to keep dull pain, I obviously would prefer the latter, and would figure at least to replace DP with the auto hp power as I have stated for reasons above. I wouldn't want the absorb in it though, it should still be auto. The absorb should still be reconstruction instead of a heal. The devs have agreed that it is bad planning when a set performs where a power pick becomes practically useless, this is such the case with reconstruction as a heal for most of the game. Considering how especially these devs PUT absorb into the sentinel version, I would assume they would agree with me on absorb being fine in regen thematically, and there is no better place to put it than changing reconstruction to absorb.

 

Personally, I LOVE how it would work so nicely with the set, working WITH all your other heal powers, rather than just being lost in the wayside. Layered mitigation, is always more effective than topping in just one area, and at least as an absorb, it's still kind of a heal to stay in line with regen's theme.

[WindDemon21]

3 hours ago, Naraka said:

Eh, but Regen functions just fine as is. It also plays differently overall.

 

I'm indifferent to your suggestion. I'm not going to go on a crusade to swing people's opinion one way or the other as any changes are at the whims of the HC devs. I think it will make Regen better to give it an absorb shield but it might also make it very one-note, relying on that click shield more so than it's other powers.  Giving the Regen set comprehensive debuffs resist to nearly all and stackable using it's clicks would be more unique, flavorful and make it tops on teams.

 

Only takes a bit (around 6-8%) per click with maybe a static 10% to resilience or integration to most effects (-movement, -rech, -regen, -ToHit, -def, -END, -recovery). Make Revive usable while alive that adds a bit of debuffs resistance (60sec if revived from dead and 120sec if used while alive).  Every time you heal, everytime you click a Regen power, you're progressively more difficult to affect with powers to degenerate your abilities.

Regen is not fine as is, everyone including the devs know it, but just haven't figured how to tackle it yet. Changing reconstruction to absorb though would easily fix like 80% of it's issues mechanically.

[Naraka]

10 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Regen is not fine as is, everyone including the devs know it, but just haven't figured how to tackle it yet. Changing reconstruction to absorb though would easily fix like 80% of it's issues mechanically.

I think it is fine. Your expectations have, however, changed.

[Taboo]

16 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Regen is not fine as is, everyone including the devs know it

 

This is not close to being accurate or true.

[WindDemon21]

They haven't, it hasn't really be "fine" even on live since it was nerfed. It's not *unplayable* just like any sets in the game aren't, but it is DEFINITELY not up to par, and has a lot of redundancies, especially with reconstruction.

[arcane]

18 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Regen is not fine as is, ***everyone including the devs know it***, but just haven't figured how to tackle it yet. Changing reconstruction to absorb though would easily fix like 80% of it's issues mechanically.

Source for the part in asterisks? My regen brute is awesome and I think I missed the memo.

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, Taboo said:

 

This is not close to being accurate or true.

Considering everyting except direct math is based on opinion of course, but largely in part to the community, it is, no need to nitpick.

[Taboo]

3 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Considering everyting except direct math is based on opinion of course, but largely in part to the community, it is, no need to nitpick.

 

You must have missed previous topics on the subject. At best you could say the community is split on regens effectiveness.

[WindDemon21]

3 minutes ago, Taboo said:

 

You must have missed previous topics on the subject. At best you could say the community is split on regens effectiveness.

Not from anyone i've ever talked about it with, but i'm not saying there are none. At either rate though that's where my main point about it with this is to change recon to absorb so it's actually useful and help regen out a ton. Besides theme, which it obviously works with sent regen anyway and is kinda a heal, there is no way that absorb isn't 100% better than a heal for reconstruction.

[Naraka]

40 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Not from anyone i've ever talked about it with, but i'm not saying there are none. At either rate though that's where my main point about it with this is to change recon to absorb so it's actually useful and help regen out a ton. Besides theme, which it obviously works with sent regen anyway and is kinda a heal, there is no way that absorb isn't 100% better than a heal for reconstruction.

I find it arguable that it's thematic but I don't think anyone is arguing that your suggestion wouldn't improve the set. It's mostly if the armor set is good enough. 

[Troo]

Okay, I am resisting the urge to /jranger this.

 

21 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Reconstruction needs to be absorb

 

This makes no sense to me. Reconstruction is the heal for all archetypes.

 

21 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

being almost skippable on a final build as a heal that it is now.

 

Your stated baseline is not where considerations are made.

 

22 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Dull Pain: swap to the sentinel auto hp power

 

Um.. no thanks. This removes the reactive skill and timing for always on? Just no.

 

Dull Pain (Self +Max HP)
100% chance
(4.0 * Melee_HealSelf) points of Heal Dmg (self only)
(2.0 * Melee_HealSelf) maximum HitPoints for 120s (self only)
(2.0 * Melee_HealSelf) maximum HitPoints for 120s (self only)

 

Dismiss Pain (Auto: Self +Max HP)
100% chance
(1.2 * Melee_HealSelf) maximum HitPoints for 10.3s (self only)
(1.2 * Melee_HealSelf) maximum HitPoints for 10.3s (self only)

 

 

Adding -regen resistance & -recharge resistance.. I mean I'll take it.

 

It might be worth skimming the numerous other Regeneration threads to get familiar with those who think it is a fine set and enjoy the reactive nature of it.

 

whew.. I made it this far without pointing to Willpower as the set it and forget it set. Yay me!

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Source for the part in asterisks? My regen brute is awesome and I think I missed the memo.

Nerf arcane's Brute

[arcane]

I’ll acknowledge it plays differently due to requiring regular clicks, but that’s all I’m ready to admit at the moment. I’m certainly not faceplanting where my other brutes aren’t, but I am less able to just totally AFK mid-fight, yes.

[WindDemon21]

39 minutes ago, Troo said:

Okay, I am resisting the urge to /jranger this.

 

 

This makes no sense to me. Reconstruction is the heal for all archetypes.

 

 

Your stated baseline is not where considerations are made.

 

 

Um.. no thanks. This removes the reactive skill and timing for always on? Just no.

 

Dull Pain (Self +Max HP)
100% chance
(4.0 * Melee_HealSelf) points of Heal Dmg (self only)
(2.0 * Melee_HealSelf) maximum HitPoints for 120s (self only)
(2.0 * Melee_HealSelf) maximum HitPoints for 120s (self only)

 

Dismiss Pain (Auto: Self +Max HP)
100% chance
(1.2 * Melee_HealSelf) maximum HitPoints for 10.3s (self only)
(1.2 * Melee_HealSelf) maximum HitPoints for 10.3s (self only)

 

 

Adding -regen resistance & -recharge resistance.. I mean I'll take it.

 

It might be worth skimming the numerous other Regeneration threads to get familiar with those who think it is a fine set and enjoy the reactive nature of it.

 

whew.. I made it this far without pointing to Willpower as the set it and forget it set. Yay me!

I said it would be nice, never said if i would expect or think it would be that important to have dismiss pain instead, just that it would help level progression, and who cares if recon is a heal for other ATs, we're not talking about them, were talking about melee types that have regen, and that would insanely benefit from recon being absorb instead of a heal. If it makes you feel better, call it something else, but it's amount/rech the same only as absorb, would be way better than a heal that gets much less value when weighed against the rest of regen as a whole.

[WindDemon21]

46 minutes ago, Troo said:

Your stated baseline is not where considerations are made.

Maybe not, but it does bring issues that I and other players have into the light. YOUR stated baseline is not where considerations end.