best primary for AoE?

[malleable1]

I've been reading through many of the posts that compare MM pets, but I can't seem to find which one is best with AoE damage.  I guess Bots get their AoE late in game, and it sounds nice then. 

But what about purely the best AoE regardless of when they get it?

 

Also, is Empathy the only power set that can resurrect a group member?

 

Thanks,

Mal

[Agorazium]

I believe bots are the best. "Late in game" is subjective I guess but IMO it doesn't take very long to get to 32 (when Bots gets its best AOE ability).

 

As for rezzes, no - Nature Affinity, Pain Domination, Thermal Radiation, Radiation Emission, Poison, and Dark Miasma all have them. Ironically even though it’s the most healing-focused set, Empathy probably has the worst rez.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Sovereigne

[Tacheyon]

I would say Thugs over Bots in terms of AOE.  Between your Arsonist, Enforcers plus late game Thugs you have a lot of AOE.  And you get some of those before 32.  (although the best ones are at 32)

[kelika2]

Thugs get AoE early, and get more later on.

 

You cannot resurrect your pets

Thermal, Poison, Dark, Pain can res other players as well.

 

Thugs get AoE at:  level 12, 18, 24, 32.  also whatever level empty clips is at, 4 or 8 or something.

[malleable1]

Thanks guys. 

Also, for the 'characters' in the party I don't like cones or location AoE. 

For thugs/bots I guess any type of AoE should be fine.

So if I'm running in a group of 4 Masterminds, maybe I should have each choose a different Secondary?

Or what which of Nature, Thermal, Dark, Poison and Pain do the best AoE damage?

 

And for secondaries, do you guys think that buffs or debuffs are the better way to go?

As for buffs, do they stack with the same secondary?  I would guess they stack if each character has a different secondary buffing the same stat (e.g. +dmg).

Also, do heals from Empathy repair bots?  I would think so just for game consistency, but figured I better ask.

 

Thanks again guys,

Mal

Edited April 28, 2021 by malleable1

[Neiska]

Hello @malleable1,

 

I run a box team of MM's too, so hopefully I can help. First off, far as pets go, Robots are the best AOE, followed by Demons, and then Thugs. But the Thugs and Demons have much stronger single target damage than the Robots, plus the Robots are late bloomers. But this isn't necessarily an ill thing either, as 80% of your damage will be from your assault robot, and it will be your level, instead of at a lower level like Thugs would be.

 

I run /Electrical as a main, /time and /kin as a support. One thing to keep in mind when boxing is "ease of play", which can make some powersets like FF more attractive, as well as autocast powers and the like. For example, I don't even use haste on my 3 robot MMs, my /EA has her +absorb on autocast, just so I don't have to worry about it, /time has her heal, and /kin has fulcrum shift.

 

I chose these sets for the following reasons -

/Electrcial - because its my overall favorite powerset. It gives absorb, heal, resistances and status immunity to you and pets, endless endurance, two -damage debuffs and a damage buff. One hidden perk about electrical that some may not realize is your Destiny Incarnate slot. If you are playing /Electrical, you certainly dont need ageless becuase you have Endurance on Demand, and you don't need Clariton either because you have Faraday Cage, which means you are free to take Barrier for even tougher pets.

 

/Time - I chose time because it is easy to softcap defenses with it, especially with robots. That, and I already had a robo/time MM before I decided to try boxing MMs. But time gives a nice heal, and Chrono is a fantastic emergency button. It has a toggle debuff, as well as an AoE Debuff as well. It's just an overall balanced set and easy to play.

 

/Kin - The most recent addition to the MM team, she is there almost strictly for more robots, and for a huge damage boost to everything. She keeps everyones pets at damage cap, even everyone's lore pets, which makes them particularly deadly. Couple this with Robots already heavy -regen boost, this makes killing AVs and Giant Monsters pretty simple.

 

A few things worthy of mention -

 

Bonfire - I cant stress how good this is if you play Robots. You can stack it with your assualt patches, and stand in it, forcing enemies to fight you in all of your AoE.

 

Fold Space - A rather new tool I have been experimenting with, it is rather fun to use as an aoe "come here" ability. I also enjoy using it with Group fly to "yoink" things up to me and then let them all "drop" right into my multiple stacks of AoE damage.

 

Group Fly - This is unbelievably good for Robots now. Robots are all ranged pets, and with the recent AI update, they dont fly down to engage into melee either. So you and your entire team can hover high up and simply rain fire down. And for a lot of enemies, there's nothing they can do about it. The few ranged damage powers they do have, is easially handled by protector bots and autocast heals. So unless your enemy has -fly abilities (which most do not), they are more or less completely boned. On some maps, if the ceiling is high enough I can go completely AFK on my Robot MMs, even on highest difficulty.

 

I have had fantastic results with my Robot MMs. I plan on sitting down and trying 3 Demon MMs as well. But nothing says you cant run a mix of pet types either, or even 1 of each - Robots, Demons, Thugs.

 

TLDR - Long-term, Robots are definitely highest AOE damage, downside is they are late bloomers. Up to high 30s-low 40s, I think Demons do more AoE, but as soon as you get Assualt Bot's missle rack at level 32, it pulls way way ahead.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Happy Masterminding!

Edited April 28, 2021 by Neiska
Typo! 32 not 42!

[Arbegla]

58 minutes ago, Neiska said:

TLDR - Long-term, Robots are definitely highest AOE damage, downside is they are late bloomers. Up to high 30s-low 40s, I think Demons do more AoE, but as soon as you get Assualt Bot's missle rack at level 42, it pulls way way ahead.

 

Slight Correction. You get the last upgrade at 32, not 42. So Robots get all their AOE by 32.

[Neiska]

Mhm, typo, my bads. Still, main point was its a late bloomer, and doesn't sidekick down very well, that's a turnoff to some people so its worth mentioning. 

[Arbegla]

19 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Mhm, typo, my bads. Still, main point was its a late bloomer, and doesn't sidekick down very well, that's a turnoff to some people so its worth mentioning. 

 

Oh I agree, I've been playing all the contacts as I get them (turning XP off as I go) and its really painful at level 29.. If I was 34, I could have the upgrade at 32, and then use it down to 27, but its still very painful having only Flamethrower and Dual Plasma Blast as my AOE attacks..

[malleable1]

Neiska,

Thanks very much for the detailed descriptions.  You've sold me on Robots.  I did dig them, and wasn't completely satisfied with playing Thugs from an roleplaying viewpoint.  Demons and Robots have the best theme for me.

 

Can you explain how stacking works with buffs and debuffs?  From what I've read everything seems to stack (except only one toggle of an ability at a time).  So four MM all using the same buff provides x4 that of a single buffer.  I play with four keyboards and four mice, so I find it easier to play the same primaries and secondarys. Not always, but most the time. I also like to play x4 Rezzers; so Nature, Dark, Poison, Thermal or Empathy for Secondarys.

I tend to prefer buffing pets to debuffing enemies because I kills stuff pretty fast if I'm doing it right.  I do like the idea of Darks group Stealth though, even though dark is more of a debuffer.

 

Mal

[Neiska]

@malleable1 - im sorry but that would take wiser heads than mine. I do know that you get full benifits of toggles, up to the soft/hard caps. But as far as debuffs go, im not sure. I know all the buffs stack to a point, so dbuffs should follow the same way. I perfer buffing to debuffing though personally, because i can see values for myself and see any holes and such. But thats just me.

[Arbegla]

15 minutes ago, Neiska said:

@malleable1 - im sorry but that would take wiser heads than mine. I do know that you get full benifits of toggles, up to the soft/hard caps. But as far as debuffs go, im not sure. I know all the buffs stack to a point, so dbuffs should follow the same way. I perfer buffing to debuffing though personally, because i can see values for myself and see any holes and such. But thats just me.

 

Buffs and Debuffs stack from different sources, but not the same source. So if you debuff an enemy with say, Howling Twilight (from /dark, which has -regen) and also Heat Exhaustion (from Thermal, which also has -regen) they would stack and their values would be combined. However, if you spam Howling Twilight multiple times from the same source (say, by putting it on auto) then it won't stack, though its duration will be refreshed each time you apply it.

 

The same works with buffs. If you have two Thermals, you can stack their shields, have have 2 copies of each shield on you. But, no matter how many times you cast it, 1 thermal can only apply 1 shield.

 

There are some 'soft' caps to +defense (and -tohit) but as they affect the combat formula in the same way, it doesn't really matter which side you affect. The same goes for -def and +tohit. You can never have greater then a 95% chance to hit something, or lower then a 5% chance. This goes for mobs as well, no matter what your +defense or -tohit value, mobs will always have at least a 5% chance to hit you.

 

Resistance is capped on an AT basis. Masterminds cap at 75% resistance to any damage type, same as their pets.

 

Here are the actual hardcaps for most things: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Limits

[Neiska]

Right, but lets say -regen, just how much can you debuff -regen from multiple sources? Between powers/procs/incarnates etc etc, just now low can -regen go for example? That is what I meant.  Still good info for @malleable1 though!

[Arbegla]

9 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Right, but lets say -regen, just how much can you debuff -regen from multiple sources? Between powers/procs/incarnates etc etc, just now low can -regen go for example? That is what I meant.  Still good info for @malleable1 though!

 

From that site I link:

Minimum

Players and critters have a minimum Regeneration of 0%. It is not possible to cause something to lose health by debuffing its Regeneration to a negative value.

 

So, basically once you floor something's regeneration, you just gotta keep it there.

 

Another thing to consider is the Purple Triangles of Doom (and the Purple Patch) Both of which are detailed here: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Purple_Patch
https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Purple_Triangles

[TheSpiritFox]

Thugs. Definitely thugs. Like, Ok, the assault bot with perfect setup has amazing aoe. 

 

Without perfect setup, bot aoe hurts badly. Mobs scatter? You're fucked, bots have the lowest single target damage (needs a big ass buff in the ST area TBH). My experience with playing a bots/traps/mu which is about as solid a bots AOE monster as you can create, it's still difficult. If a boss gets out of your burn patches they take forever to kill compared to other sets and stuff, it gets really tedious if your immobilize doesn't hit a boss in time to keep it in burn patches or if the mobs aren't already tightly grouped up to begin with. 

 

Thugs by comparison, has 4 pets that throw out significant aoe damage, not one. They take procs better than bots do, gang war contributes even more damage from the primary, and empty clips is a better primary attack than photon grenade both for damage and procability. 2 damage procs in enforcers, arsonist throwing fire everywhere, and the bruiser foot stomping things makes thugs competitive in ideal settings with bots in aoe, but makes thugs FAR outstrip bots as soon as a fight is not ideal aoe conditions.  Demons I would rank equal to bots and below thugs. Better single target than thugs, but the aoe damage comes in a bit lower in my experience over average fights. Debuffs also make a massive difference here, as a thugs will benefit much more from -resistance than a demons will, given that thugs damage is alot of lethal which gets resisted by alot of things, compared to demons thugs gain alot more damage from -resistance than demons do on average when their mix of damage types is already often not super resisted. 

 

TLDR: Bots will occasionally perform brilliantly and often perform sub par in aoe stituations. Thugs will always perform great in aoe stituations but will also perform great as soon as things switch to single target. And if you want to do aoe damage? I think the best single MM spec for that is Thugs/Traps. No MM I have made melts groups faster on average. Bots will melt a single group fast and then miss an electric fences on a boss and have to spend an extra minute chewing a boss down. Just like in teams, the upper limit on your speed is boss and above killing, and bots are just not good enough at chewing down bosses unless those bosses are caught perfectly in the middle of a packed mob and 16 burn patches. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by TheSpiritFox

[Psylenz0511]

On 4/28/2021 at 7:02 AM, malleable1 said:

Thanks guys. 

Also, for the 'characters' in the party I don't like cones or location AoE. 

For thugs/bots I guess any type of AoE should be fine.

So if I'm running in a group of 4 Masterminds, maybe I should have each choose a different Secondary?

Or what which of Nature, Thermal, Dark, Poison and Pain do the best AoE damage?

 

And for secondaries, do you guys think that buffs or debuffs are the better way to go?

As for buffs, do they stack with the same secondary?  I would guess they stack if each character has a different secondary buffing the same stat (e.g. +dmg).

Also, do heals from Empathy repair bots?  I would think so just for game consistency, but figured I better ask.

 

Thanks again guys,

Mal

 

You somehow didn't include storm in the AoE damage secondaries. 😄 Lightining storm, tornado, freezing rain all do damage and with slow procs you can make more abilities damaging ones too.

[Psylenz0511]

On 5/4/2021 at 2:19 PM, TheSpiritFox said:

Thugs. Definitely thugs. Like, Ok, the assault bot with perfect setup has amazing aoe. 

 

Without perfect setup, bot aoe hurts badly. Mobs scatter? You're fucked, bots have the lowest single target damage (needs a big ass buff in the ST area TBH). My experience with playing a bots/traps/mu which is about as solid a bots AOE monster as you can create, it's still difficult. If a boss gets out of your burn patches they take forever to kill compared to other sets and stuff, it gets really tedious if your immobilize doesn't hit a boss in time to keep it in burn patches or if the mobs aren't already tightly grouped up to begin with. 

 

Thugs by comparison, has 4 pets that throw out significant aoe damage, not one. /////

 

Hold on buckaroo. I get you like thugs better than robots, but the tier one bots have full auto lasers (cones) at level 32 as well.

[tidge]

I've played Robots/Traps/Mace and Thugs/Thermal/Heat to level 50+, and the Robots are much better at AoE.

 

The Robots can be made even better by making some choices to KEEP enemies in place. I regularly use:

• (Traps) Caltrops (AoE, slotted with %-Res from Annihilation)
• (Traps) Acid Mortar (AoE, slotted with -Res from Annihilation and Achilles' Heel on top of being slotted for the inherent debuffs)
• (Traps) Poison Trap (AoE, slotted for Hold Duration, some %damage)
• The Robots all have Sudden Acceleration KB -> KD. This is quite important.
• (Robots) Photon Grenade (AoE, slotted with %-Res from Annihilation and Overwhelming Force KB->KD)
• (Mace) Mace Beam Volley (AoE, slotted with with %-Res from Annihilation and Sudden Acceleration KB->KD)

I want to note the following:

• The primary attacks (and Epics, naturally) are taken LATE in the build; they wouldn't help nearly as much before the final Upgrade at level 32.
• The build also includes single-target powers Web Grenade (mandatory T1 secondary, no extra slots) and Pulse Rifle Blast (with Sudden Acceleration KB -> KD).
• If they proc, the %-Res from Annihilation don't stack, but they will extend the duration of the debuff.

I played around with Mace's Web Envelope (an AoE Immobilize, which looks like something I would want), but opted for Pulse Rifle Blast instead because:

• The extra immobilize wasn't doing much on top of all the other 'tricks' to keep enemies in place
• I found that the Single-Target ranged attack was more efficient at drawing enemy spawns into my Robot's "kill zone".
• I liked the slotting options for Pulse Rifle Blast (Ranged, Knockback) more than Web Envelope (Immobilize)

I could drop my travel power (Fly) to take Provoke from the Presence pool, which would make the character a slightly more effective 'tank' at lower levels (leveraging Bodyguard mode), but that would cost me 4 points of KB reduction (Blessing of the Zephyr) and my Rocket Boots costume piece! I also wouldn't have the slots to give Provoke the respect it needs... and even with slotting it wouldn't do a job that needs to be done (either in solo or group play).

 

I won't provide a similar analysis for my Thugs/Thermal/Heat build, but between the nature of the attacks by the Thugs henchmen, even if I made different choices for secondary and epic I don't think I could match what the Robots do (for AoE).

[Arbegla]

15 hours ago, Psylenz0511 said:

 

Hold on buckaroo. I get you like thugs better than robots, but the tier one bots have full auto lasers (cones) at level 32 as well.

 

And the Protector bots get Photon Grenade at 32 as well. Its a targeted AoE, with a stun component, on a pretty quick recharge (20seconds I think..?)

[TheSpiritFox]

17 hours ago, Psylenz0511 said:

 

Hold on buckaroo. I get you like thugs better than robots, but the tier one bots have full auto lasers (cones) at level 32 as well.

 

The full auto laser cones are a 6 second cast, making them lower overall DPS from the small bots. The protector bots add very little damage overall including their photon grenade. Like, bots are pretty much all about the assault bot and his AOE. And while that's great, there's zero proc potential from it really. Like I'm not saying the bots are bad at aoe, I'm saying that like when I look at Tidge's comment above where he took a bots/traps and a thugs/therma and is trying to compare primary aoe when one of them is a traps? Nah the difference maker there is traps is far and away a massively offensive primary and thermal is not. 

 

Like, yes, bots lower pets add some aoe. Thugs lower pets add a shitload of aoe. The arsonist does more aoe damage than all 3 of the T1 bots combined. A single enforcer does more aoe damage than both protectors combined. 

 

Thugs/traps vs bots/traps my thugs traps is better both offensively and defensively to the point that bots/traps is harder to play because it is slower to kill things and more likely to lose pets than my thugs/traps. It's not so much that I "Like" thugs more than bots. I really WISH bots performed as well as thugs, I want a big single target damage buff for bots as well as something done about the whole "proc mule for pet auras" issue which makes slotting bots harder. 

 

But like no gang war, 2 -def cones and 2 -def single target attacks which help a good bit with level differences and can take damage procs on each enforcer, constant aoe from the arsonist, as well as the easy survivability of thugs over bots once you have them fully IOed out? Bots might well be better overall aoe without secondary powers taken into effect and with generics, but once you build it out and pick a secondary that enhances aoe damage, thugs have edged out bots in performance with like spare no expense purple builds pretty hard in my experience. 

 

I can't remember the exact numbers but someone tested it. Each proc in each enforcer adds like 8-14 DPS single target to the MM. That's a shitload of extra damage and bots do not have procability like that. 

 

And again, this is also considering that bots kinda need a tightly packed mob group to really go to town, and thugs overall perform much better in all situations especially not ideal aoe stituations where bots efficiency falls off the second that you're not target saturated on burn patch missles. The ONLY reason bots are not down at mercs level is 1) far better defensively thanks to protector bots and 2) burn patch missles change the entire dynamic of what bots are capable of in ideal conditions. 

 

Both thugs and bots are capable of melting a tightly packed group including bosses in literal seconds. But bots, if the burn patch missles get wasted to spread and you get like 4 burn patches and have to wait for the cooldown, your aoe dps just tanked into the floor for the time it takes for burn patch to come up and you spend the whole time trying to make sure they don't scatter before it comes up again. Thugs? No worries. Stuff will come back and then single target thugs will annihilate whatever very quickly. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by TheSpiritFox

[TheSpiritFox]

Here. This is my thugs/traps

 

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And this is my bots/traps

 

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And I gotta say my thugs/traps performs much, much overall better. 

 

[Vinceq98]

9 minutes ago, TheSpiritFox said:

 

The full auto laser cones are a 6 second cast, making them lower overall DPS from the small bots. The protector bots add very little damage overall including their photon grenade. Like, bots are pretty much all about the assault bot and his AOE. And while that's great, there's zero proc potential from it really. Like I'm not saying the bots are bad at aoe, I'm saying that like when I look at Tidge's comment above where he took a bots/traps and a thugs/therma and is trying to compare primary aoe when one of them is a traps? Nah the difference maker there is traps is far and away a massively offensive primary and thermal is not. 

 

Thugs/traps vs bots/traps my thugs traps is better both offensively and defensively to the point that bots/traps is harder to play because it is slower to kill things and more likely to lose pets than my thugs/traps. It's not so much that I "Like" thugs more than bots. I really WISH bots performed as well as thugs, I want a big single target damage buff for bots as well as something done about the whole "proc mule for pet auras" issue which makes slotting bots harder. 

 

But like no gang war, 2 -def cones and 2 -def single target attacks which help a good bit with level differences and can take damage procs on each enforcer, constant aoe from the arsonist, as well as the easy survivability of thugs over bots once you have them fully IOed out? Bots might well be better overall aoe without secondary powers taken into effect and with generics, but once you build it out and pick a secondary that enhances aoe damage, thugs have edged out bots in performance with like spare no expense purple builds pretty hard in my experience. 

 

And again, this is also considering that bots kinda need a tightly packed mob group to really go to town, and thugs overall perform much better in all situations especially not ideal aoe stituations where bots efficiency falls off the second that you're not target saturated on burn patch missles. The ONLY reason bots are not down at mercs level is 1) far better defensively thanks to protector bots and 2) burn patch missles change the entire dynamic of what bots are capable of in ideal conditions. 

 

Both thugs and bots are capable of melting a tightly packed group including bosses in literal seconds. But bots, if the burn patch missles get wasted to spread and you get like 4 burn patches and have to wait for the cooldown, your aoe dps just tanked into the floor for the time it takes for burn patch to come up and you spend the whole time trying to make sure they don't scatter before it comes up again. Thugs? No worries. Stuff will come back and then single target thugs will annihilate whatever very quickly. 

 

This man masterminds!! Ive played MMs since retail COV and ive made both bots and thugs MMs with varying secondaries. Thugs really does outshine bots in almost all scenarios. The AOE from Bots is from the assualt bots one power where as the AOE from thugs comes from arsonists one power and the enforcers 2 AOE cones. Thugs also procs out way better than BOTS. Bots can only make use of the explosive strike proc one 1 of their few knocback attacks. And lets face it knocback + burn patch = 0 damage. I mean this game gives us the ability to analyze our damage with combat logs and the power analyzer, if you actually dissect your damage and procs youll see that Thugs comes out leagues ahead of the other primaries and thats  without gangwar too. Take power analyzer for a spin and test out how much that procced out caltrops or procced out acid mortar is really doing for you (FYI its not lol). 

[Arbegla]

35 minutes ago, TheSpiritFox said:

 

The full auto laser cones are a 6 second cast, making them lower overall DPS from the small bots. The protector bots add very little damage overall including their photon grenade. Like, bots are pretty much all about the assault bot and his AOE.

 

While I get where you're coming from, Mercs recently got their full auto animation cut down, and Bots/ is on the list to have the same adjustments in Page 3. Its already been stated that Bots are being looked at a lot, as they do have some pretty nasty issues (Repair is simply trash, Flamethrower is another stupidly long animation power, and the single target isn't all too great because the damage has been lowered)

 

I will give you to proc-abliity that thugs have, especially with -def, and the fact that you can use both BU procs (one from the purple set in the T1 pets, one from Gaussins in the Enforcers) really add to their damage. It is basically all lethal/smash though, which is more resisted then energy. And the Arsonist can be hard to keep alive sometimes. I'll be very interested to see how the two sets compare after bots/ has their animation times fixed up.

[TheSpiritFox]

1 minute ago, Arbegla said:

 

While I get where you're coming from, Mercs recently got their full auto animation cut down, and Bots/ is on the list to have the same adjustments in Page 3. Its already been stated that Bots are being looked at a lot, as they do have some pretty nasty issues (Repair is simply trash, Flamethrower is another stupidly long animation power, and the single target isn't all too great because the damage has been lowered)

 

I will give you to proc-abliity that thugs have, especially with -def, and the fact that you can use both BU procs (one from the purple set in the T1 pets, one from Gaussins in the Enforcers) really add to their damage. It is basically all lethal/smash though, which is more resisted then energy. And the Arsonist can be hard to keep alive sometimes. I'll be very interested to see how the two sets compare after bots/ has their animation times fixed up.

Damage procs are better than the build up procs for enforcers. If you're gonna put a soulbound in Thugs, it should either go in the T1 or the T3, and guassians is honestly a waste of a slot compared to damage procs, one of which is negative energy damage. 

 

Now like, if we're gonna talk about possible changes, who fuckin knows lmao. I can't wait for MM buffs, I've been sitting here begging for them for ages (since like i12 on live when I came back after quitting due to Enhancement Diversification for a long while, yes I was one of those people =p) and yeah if they like buff bots and change how their DPS works, buff the minions, especially if they actually give us one of the biggest buffs ALL MMs  need making the pets all always be the same level as the master except for like gang war and hell on earth stuff which should be a level under, that'll change things. Make the T1 bots the same level as the MM and cut their full auto animation down to 2.5 seconds, and that'll change things, buff bots so you don't have to waste actual bot slots on pet auras the same way, that'll change things. 

 

But as things stand currently, the way it maths out, Bots loses out hard to thugs and is on par with or just below demons if you build all three primaries out as best you possibly can. 

 

And yeah, the arsonist does die. Almost always right at the start of the fight. When I have to resummon him it's usually JUST him in the first 5 seconds of the fight, which is annoying, but also why I took aid other on my traps builds because having a single target heal makes a massive difference in pet survivability compared to no heal or just triage beacon. 

 

But I mean, you're throwing out not just smash and lethal, you're throwing out lethal damage, fire damage, negative energy damage with one of the procs which has a separate proc timer for each enforcer attack meaning that it procs a shitload, plus the large amount of smashing damage from the bruiser. Yeah it does get resisted more, but you're throwing out alot more total aoe damage so even with resists, thugs genuinely come out ahead. 

 

Add on a secondary or team which debuffs resistance though...

[Arbegla]

7 minutes ago, TheSpiritFox said:

Damage procs are better than the build up procs for enforcers. If you're gonna put a soulbound in Thugs, it should either go in the T1 or the T3, and guassians is honestly a waste of a slot compared to damage procs, one of which is negative energy damage.

 

I'm curious about this, as the Gaussin's BU proc has a really high chance of proccing, due to how Tactics works, increasing the proc chance for EACH target of tactics, so its up pretty often.