Star Trek universe - the original MCU?

[DougGraves]

I'm watching DS9 episode Blood Oath.  It features 3 klingon warriors who had appeared in other trek series, together for one final mission.  It occurred to me that Star Trek had created something like the MCU already.

 

The MCU is known for long plots, introducing characters in different movies, having pay offs from several movies ago, etc.

 

And Star Trek did that with its series.  Scotty reappearing in TNG.  Worf moving to DS9.  Barclay being in multiple series.  The klingons and other races appearing in multiple series.

 

Is there any other set oftv series that had a shared universe like that?

 

I know NBC has 3 series set in Chicago, but they are concurrent so while it is a shared universe that seems different than multiple series spanning decades, but I haven't seen them to know.

[TheOtherTed]

The first thing I thought of are the series "Warehouse 13," "Eureka," and "Alphas," but it's not really the same.  For one, they didn't build a shared history like the Star Trek franchise did; rather, they just have a few rare cross-overs featuring a character or two.  Also, the series are very different in their premises - "Warehouse 13" is kind of sort of magic-themed, "Eureka" is all super-science, and the eponymous Alphas are mutant humans.  And finally, the three series have different tones.  The first two are comedies, and the third takes itself much more seriously.

 

Aside from that, the "Arrowverse" (blech) really is the MCU in TV form, but with DC characters.  The Arrow, the Flash, and Supergirl team up in pairs or all together frequently enough, sometimes at the end of shared-yet-independent arcs - as do some other characters that I stopped caring about before they featured in their own series.

 

Couldn't recommend it, though.  Only watched as much as I did because I could find nothing else on Netflix or Amazon, and I was desperate.  Desperate, I tells ya.

[DougGraves]

You are right, the Arrowverse does do that. 

 

And with the MCU now on Disney+, I wonder if others will do the same thing with tv shows.  It makes more sense with streaming, where the old tv shows will still be around.

[InvaderStych]

On 5/14/2021 at 4:38 AM, TheOtherTed said:

The first thing I thought of are the series "Warehouse 13," "Eureka," and "Alphas," but it's not really the same. 

 

Wait, was there a written connection between these shows, or is this a fan-theory thing? 

 

I vaguely recall a late-series (For Eureka) cross-over with some really popular character from another show, was that W13?  All I remember was Fargo's goofy "I has crush on u" b-story and that the Eureka characters seemed to know about things from the other show.  Okay, as I am writing this, yeah, I think I am recalling the connection.

 

But with Alphas? Any links there I definitely missed.

 

The cancellation of Alphas after season 2 was a downright shame.  That show had a lot going for it, but it couldn't step out of the shadow of its genre at the time - namely Heroes- so it didn't really catch on.

 

On 5/13/2021 at 9:50 AM, DougGraves said:

I'm watching DS9 episode Blood Oath.  It features 3 klingon warriors who had appeared in other trek series, together for one final mission.  It occurred to me that Star Trek had created something like the MCU already.

 

Is this a re-watch or your first time through?  I could ramble on endlessly about the underappreciated greatness that is DS:9.

[Wild Claw]

It depends on whether you count spin-offs and backdoor pilots. (For those new to old TV procedures, spin-offs are when you take popular characters or settings from a show and give them their own series. A backdoor pilot is when you have an idea for a show, but can't convince a studio to produce it. So you write the characters and plot into an episode of an existing show in the hopes the studio will like it and give you the go-ahead to make the new show. Often the new show would have different actors in the parts due to studio shenanigans.) A lot of old shows did this kind of thing. Heck the original Star Trek tried at least once to do a backdoor pilot ("Gary Seven"), but the studio didn't bite.

 

The earliest I know of started with "My Favorite Husband". One episode of that had characters that backdoor piloted into "Green Acres", which in the first season established that "Petticoat Junction" was in the same universe, and later "Beverly Hillbillies" was added to the mix.

[DougGraves]

4 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

Is this a re-watch or your first time through?  I could ramble on endlessly about the underappreciated greatness that is DS:9.

 

A rewatch.  I've seen DS9 many times.

[TheOtherTed]

4 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

But with Alphas? Any links there I definitely missed.

I had to search for it, but the character Dr. Vanessa Calder (played by Lindsay Wagner) shows up in both "Warehouse 13" and "Alphas."  Not the strongest link, to be sure, but it was there.

 

Also forgot to mention - "Warehouse 13" and "Eureka" only had 2 crossovers.  In one, Douglas Fargo visits W13 to help out with some computer mumbo jumbo.  In the other, Claudia visits Eureka.  IIRC, they aired back to back, but, since I didn't like either character, I didn't pay much attention...

 

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by TheOtherTed

[InvaderStych]

1 hour ago, TheOtherTed said:

I had to search for it, but the character Dr. Vanessa Calder (played by Lindsay Wagner) shows up in both "Warehouse 13" and "Alphas."  Not the strongest link, to be sure, but it was there.

 

Also forgot to mention - "Warehouse 13" and "Eureka" only had 2 crossovers.  In one, Douglas Fargo visits W13 to help out with some computer mumbo jumbo.  In the other, Claudia visits Eureka.  IIRC, they aired back to back, but, since I didn't like either character, I didn't pay much attention...

 

Thanks.

 

That all tracks.  I would have definitely missed the link in Alphas when I watched that show as I've never really watched W13.  Fargo's story arcs were always hit or miss for me; the cross-over episode (what I remember of it) I rank as a miss, but in general I felt Eureka really fell off in later seasons, still fun, but not as compelling as s1&2.  I suppose that it took itself less seriously in the later seasons was sort of one of its strengths though, so there's that.

 

1 hour ago, DougGraves said:

A rewatch.  I've seen DS9 many times.

 

Sweet.  I didn't want to start dropping random quotes and comments, and the get smacked for spoilers. 🤣

[Techwright]

I agree with Wild Claw.  The trick is, what's the difference between what the MCU did/does, and what TV refers to as spinoffs?  I think it is that the MCU was the first movie group to successful attempt to do what TV spin-offs had been doing for decades.  But if there is no clear separation, then several spinoff shows which swap characters from time to time, especially if they run concurrent might qualify, and not all are sci-fi. 

 

 

Several come to mind:

 

The Dragnet universe:  Dragnet, Adam-12, Emergency!, CHiPs, Quincy M. E., TV movie The Great Los Angeles Earthquake, and even the modern 9-1-1 share a universe.  A rather interesting explanation lies here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency!#Spin-offs_and_crossovers

 

The Cheers universe:  Cheers, Frasier, The Tortellis, St. Elswhere (crossover), and Wings (not a spinoff, but same universe)

 

The "Hooterville" universe:  The Beverly Hillbillies, Green Acres, Pettycoat Junction.    Several of the characters appeared in multiple series.  Sam Drucker, the jack-of-all-trades general store owner appeared in all three, for example.  Wild Claw bested me though with the reference to My Favorite Husband.  I was not aware that it was the launching point for Green Acres. 

 

The Mayberry Universe might be another:  The Andy Griffith Show, Gomer Pyle, U.S.M.C., and Mayberry R.F.D. as well as the reunion movie for The Andy Griffith Show.   Quite a few of the secondary characters of TAGS transferred to MRFD, and a few of the TAGS characters would pop up on GPUSMC.

 

The Bionic Universe:  The Six Million Dollar Man and The Bionic Woman, as well as their multiple reunion movies. 

 

The JAG universe;  J.A.G., NCIS, NCIS: New Orleans, NCIS: Los Angeles.  Multiple stories started in one series and continued in another.

 

The big one though would be the original MCU.  There's actually a YouTube video on it:

 

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Techwright

[TheOtherTed]

7 hours ago, Techwright said:

The "Hooterville" universe

*smacks forhead* How could I forget that?!  The crossovers were a bit weird, though - "The Beverly Hillbillies" consistently treated Hooterville as a real place, but to the "Green Acres" characters, BH was a TV show.  At least in one episode, anyway, where they tried to emulate the show in a play.

 

Gonna have to rewatch those.  It's been a long, long time.

[Techwright]

If you want to really go back a ways, look up the history of The Lone Ranger and The Green Hornet.  In radio, writings, TV. and later comics.  You'll notice a certain last name:  Reid.   The Green Hornet was really Britt Reid, a wealthy newspaper owner with other investments in his financial empire.  Then realize that the real last name of the Lone Ranger is Reid. (His first name has been changed up a bit over the years, but most settle on "John" the name Tonto put on the fake tombstone.)  Ranger Reid had a secret silver mine, from whence his silver bullets came.  The mine was maintained, in part, by his nephew Dan Reid, son of the brother and fellow ranger gunned down in the box canyon ambush.  Dan inherits the mine and uses the silver wealth to found a financial empire.  His son is the first Green Hornet, Britt Reid.  Making the Lone Ranger's silver mine the source of the Green Hornet's wealth, and the Lone Ranger the great uncle of the first Green Hornet. 

 

The crossover connection is Dan Reid.  He appears as a youth in the Lone Ranger radio show, and as the father figure in some of the Green Hornet radio show.

 

In the 1990s, NOW comics ran Green Hornet comics.  In them, they actually tied up a loose end or two rather nicely.  Green Hornet and Kato of the radio series became the first Green Hornet and Kato, the WWII team.  Green Hornet and Kato of the TV series became the second team, composed of Britt Reid II, the nephew of the radio Britt Reid, and TV Kato was the son of radio Kato.  The radio Kato was given seed wealth by radio Britt, and returned to Japan to found a business empire focused on technology.  It is his empire that provides the research and equipment for many of the gadgets and vehicles the Reid/Kato team-ups use.  The comics then go on to tell their own stories with a third generation of Reids and Katos taking the mantles, the fourth generation of heroes from the Reid family.  In the comics, over top the fireplace of the Reid's family room is a large painting of a masked ranger on horseback, said by the Reids to be their ancestor, the first to don a mask to fight crime.

 

Challenge of the Yukon with later became Sergeant Preston of the Yukon on TV, was created in part by Mr. Fran Striker, who'd been behind both the Lone Ranger and Green Hornet series.  It can be argued that Sergeant Preston and his dog, Yukon King might also be in the same universe, but I know of no references back and forth.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Techwright
correct info on Dan Reid. Added Sgt. Preston reference.

[TemporalVileTerror]

I'm not sure it's quite an accurate reflection to examine Star Trek as "the original MCU" for either franchise.  Serialization and continuity between independent pieces of media wasn't new for either of them, although they've both certainly examples of MASSIVE success stories (for good reason).  
But books and comic books were doing this sort of thing too.  There are some book series published in the late 1800s and early 1900s which spawned the original Creative Commons (if I'm remembering correctly, which I admit I may not be).  Pulp fiction where different writers would take characters established by their peers and continue the stories or have call-backs in new books.
And I wouldn't be at all surprised if this goes all the way back to ancient mythologies.  Those were probably the original-original MCUs of their time.  Taking characters and weaving them in to new stories for education or entertainment purposes.

 

But really, I think it's worth getting in to pulp serials, if only for a look at how even a lot of the things we credit comic books with "inventing" were already well established decades before.
BE WARNED:  Political views expressed in books from that era are often going to come across as incredibly offensive with a modern lens.  H.P. Lovecraft in particular had some great ideas, and some /really/ not-great-at-all ideas.  (Which is a subject for another thread . . . which I'll actually start before posting this one, so I can link:  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/28962-lovecraft-country/ )

Also also, since Star Trek:  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/14088-star-trek/

[Andreah]

In television, the earliest series I can remember doing long, interconnected arcs, other than soap operas, was Hill Street Blues.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Just FYI. It wasn't the showrunners of the various Star Trek series who invented the idea of a continuous shared universe, it was the fans.

 

In discussions, both online and in the before times, fans discussed things, possibilities and stories in various novels. In an attempt to find a single word that would describe the concept of "it's only official if we saw it on screen" they resurrected an old religious word: "canon."

 

The showrunners of ST: TNG had a rude awakening when fans' vehement feedback informed them that they were violating rules previously established in TOS and the first 2 movies.

 

So yes. It was originally done by Star Trek fans. It's called "Star Trek Canon."

[Techwright]

On 5/17/2021 at 11:08 AM, TemporalVileTerror said:

But books and comic books were doing this sort of thing too.

And I wouldn't be at all surprised if this goes all the way back to ancient mythologies.  Those were probably the original-original MCUs of their time.  Taking characters and weaving them in to new stories for education or entertainment purposes.

 

 

 

My comics are packed away right now, but one of my favorite sets was an early 90s list of comics that crossed over the Doc Savage series being published at the time with the franchise of The Shadow.  The end result just felt so right.  I was really hoping they'd find a way to incorporate more pulp heroes into future stories together, like Green Hornet & Kato, the Phantom, Mandrake the Magician, or The Spider.  I still think that would make an awesome movie grouping, though you have to get the stories right, something the previous movies of these characters didn't handle well.

 

Speaking of these, there was an animated Saturday morning show in the 1980s called Defenders of the Earth.  Though it had no lead in shows, it crossed the franchises of Flash Gordon, the Phantom, and Mandrake the Magician (adding in Lothar), and adding a younger generation to create a new original work.  It was pretty good for its day.

 

In the late 1970s, there was a Tarzan/Lone Ranger/Zorro animated show on Saturday mornings.  I cannot recall if there were crossover episodes or not, though it likely would have been Zorro and the Lone Ranger, rather than Tarzan crossing over.

 

 

 

 

On 5/17/2021 at 1:43 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

In an attempt to find a single word that would describe the concept of "it's only official if we saw it on screen" they resurrected an old religious word: "canon."

 

 

"Canon" was being used before Star Trek and not in a religious sense.  Sherlock Holmes fans, especially the Baker Street Irregulars, were using "canon" to describe the 56 short stories and 4 novels that Doyle wrote concerning Holmes and Watson.  Though there is a formidable library of material (much often good) not written by Sir Arthur, only those 60 are canon, and the standard of comparison for all other works. 

 

I'm pretty sure the Agatha Christie fans and the Ian Fleming fans have their canons of works as well, though I'm not as much into that.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Techwright
added the video link

[Techwright]

On 5/17/2021 at 11:08 AM, TemporalVileTerror said:

And I wouldn't be at all surprised if this goes all the way back to ancient mythologies.  Those were probably the original-original MCUs of their time.  Taking characters and weaving them in to new stories for education or entertainment purposes.

 

Sorry, forgot to add this in on the previous thread before folks read it.

 

It's very interesting you say that because that's pretty much what Roman polytheism did: found comparatives between their gods and heroes with those of other polytheisms, notably Greek religion, and did merges and crossovers, after a fashion, with these.

[RogerWilco]

Didn't Buffy the Vampire Slayer have some spin-off series like Angel?

 

There is also the Highlander movies and series.

 

There is the 1960s Bewitched series and its spin-offs.

 

There is Dr. Who with Torchwood and such.

 

Wikipedia has a list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_shared_universes_in_film_and_television

[TheOtherTed]

On 7/2/2021 at 11:42 AM, RogerWilco said:

There is the 1960s Bewitched series and its spin-offs.

 

There is Dr. Who with Torchwood and such.

Bewitched spin-offs?  Do you mean the series about their daughter that lasted for about a day?  Or the movie that made some nostalgic nods to the series?

 

The Dr. Who / Torchwood thing tracks, but, much as true Whoovians might get angry, the only thing consistent about that universe is that the Daleks make a surprise return and need to be destroyed once and for all every third episode.

[Techwright]

14 hours ago, TheOtherTed said:

Bewitched spin-offs?  Do you mean the series about their daughter that lasted for about a day?  Or the movie that made some nostalgic nods to the series?

 

The Dr. Who / Torchwood thing tracks, but, much as true Whoovians might get angry, the only thing consistent about that universe is that the Daleks make a surprise return and need to be destroyed once and for all every third episode.

There were two Tabitha attempts at a Bewitched spinoff.  The first was just a pilot episode.  Aired once and done.  The second lasted 10 episodes, which nowadays would be a season, but back then was a half-season. 

 

Dr. Who has spun off Torchwood, The Sarah Jane Adventures, and Class.  There was also a K-9 animated series, but I really know almost nothing of it.  With Dr. Who you get the unusual step of much of the new canon material being released by Big Finish in the forms of books and audio productions, so I suppose those should be included.  There were also two video games, but I'm unclear if those were considered canonical stories or not.  I suppose I should add that Dr. Who also generated a couple of movies with Peter Cushing in the role, but the character was so changed to what we eventually understood the Doctor to be that I can't consider them in the same universe.

 

Another interesting shared universe is actually huge, though it only came together for one movie.  The Gambler Returns: Luck of the Draw saw many of the legendary TV cowboys make their final appearances.  According to Wikipedia, these included characters from the shows Maverick, Bat Masterson, Wyatt Earp, The Rifleman, Kung Fu, The Westerner, The Virginian, and Cheyenne.  So in effect, all those shows now share a universe with The Gambler TV movies.

 

Speaking of Maverick, the 1957 to 1962 series spawned a few others besides its connection to The Gambler.  These included a 1978 TV movie, The New Maverick, which led to a 1979 TV show Young Maverick.  1981 was the zenith year for James Garner's popularity, and his face was everywhere including a new TV series Bret Maverick, which continued the story of his gambler as he aged and tried to settle down, with mixed results.  I remember that one.  Loved the show, and it was poised for a second season, but NBC cut it.  There was actually a second season of scripts that had been forwards to other Maverick veteran Jack Kelly, who was to have brought his character back in the second season.