Principles of Dual Pistols?

[Scarlet Shocker]

I'm working on a new Def - on live I rarely played them - but I'm thinking Poison/DP might be good. I've never really gotten my head around DP on any possible AT, but I do like poison and Frosticus' guide has reinvigorated my liking for them.

 

So what are the best and worst things about DP? What are the strengths and relative weaknesses of the individual powers? Which are entirely skippable, which are essential?

 

Etc etc

 

I did search for a guide but my search fu is weak!

 

Thanks

[Android Nim]

I have a 50 poison/dp that i was excited to roll and was reasonably fun to level but is a huge disappointment at end game due to all the mezzing. Not sure I would advise rolling one but your mileage may vary. 

[Psyonico]

13 minutes ago, Android Nim said:

I have a 50 poison/dp that i was excited to roll and was reasonably fun to level but is a huge disappointment at end game due to all the mezzing. Not sure I would advise rolling one but your mileage may vary. 

 

I'm assuming you're referring to Venomous Gas shutting off?  I have a Poison/Water that just hit 32 and I said to myself "Welp, guess I'm getting Clarion"

[Android Nim]

1 minute ago, Psyonico said:

 

I'm assuming you're referring to Venomous Gas shutting off?  I have a Poison/Water that just hit 32 and I said to myself "Welp, guess I'm getting Clarion"

yep

 

(hey Psy!)

[Dahkness]

The poison guide is great! That got me into poison and I never looked back.  I do have to say it’s just a little out of date with power changes and new powers in the last few updates.
 

Combat tp and fold space are absolutely a must with it imo. Being able to tp the face of who ever you want, you don’t really have to worry about the bad range  on VG anymore. 
 

Okay so who cares what you use in the game. It’s there so use it! Let them flame. One thing that changed my life on my poison was the P2W mez protection. I was able to take ageless for my end issues. It honestly makes poison so much fun.

 

Carry purples you have pre-bought in /ah so you can easily pick them up in between missions and TFs! 
 

Self heals: 

Put your two chance for heals defender procs in your 2 most used single target attacks. Also! Put the chance for absorbs in poison Trap. I can’t stress enough how useful it is. Put chance for heal in stamina and the 2 heal procs in health. All those things add up. I also carry the temp self heal power as well. 
 

Play how you want! I’ve put over 1000 hours on my poison. I’m just sharing what made it fun for me 

 

For DP on a defender. I think every power is useful but dual wield cause you’re force to take the first power. No need to waste a power for it.  I have a really good proc layout for it if you choose to go that route and live off of purples.  DP only really shines when you proc it out on a defender. Dmg is pretty bad other wise. 
 

PS: With VG on - Fold Space - Soul Drain (dark mastery) - Hail of bullets. You blaster now baby! 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Dahkness

[Scarlet Shocker]

interesting points thanks

[Dark Dove]

To address your interest in Dual Pistols:

 

Pistols: This is the power you have to take, so tend to take it instead of dual wield.  It's a great gap-filling attack, and a good place to put a 3 to 5 piece set bonus because procs won't do much for it at the recharge rate.

 

Dual Wield:  It's fine, but not worth the power pick.  Probably better on blasters.  Just use Pistols more often.

 

Empty Clips:  It's an average short ranged cone.  It has a lot of proc opportunities because it's a cone, and can also take a force feedback proc.  If you like using cones, it's worth taking as an additional AoE, and gets better if you find ways to fit +range into your build.  It's marginally skippable if you don't like cones.  I still tend to keep it in builds but if you're a PBAoE player it might not work out for you if you aren't into hopping around the battlefield, or if you really need the power pick for something else badly.

 

Swap Ammo:  This is your buff power instead of Aim, it's always on and gives all of your DP attacks an added bonus, either damage or debuffs.  Incendiary ammo is the one you'll use the most for the damage, it's good.  The other two have uses on teams, and have high defender values compared to other DP AT's, so for specialized circumstances you might want to use them.  For me, it's almost always just Incendiary.

 

Bullet Rain:  It's your fireball power, but has the benefit of taking a bunch of procs and force feedback.  A lot of creative ways to slot this one, take it, use it all the time.  Good animation time and decent damage.  Can also take a bunch of other procs.

 

Suppressive Fire:  Slotted with procs and with an ammo type selected, this is a powerhouse single target attack with good control in a hold, too.  Failing that, it's an average control power, so if you aren't going to fill it with damage procs and use an ammo type, you can probably skip it.

 

Executioner's shot:  This is your big single target attack.  Takes a force feedback recharge proc too, if you like (I like).  No brainer as a must-have.

 

Piercing Rounds:  This has a good debuff, very narrow cone and a wonky animation time.  I usually skip this one, but if you like to focus on debuffs, you could take it on a defender because of the higher debuff value.  It's 'fine' as an attack.  I prefer procced suppressive fire.

 

Hail of Bullets:  The nuke, it gives you positional defenses which actually do make a difference even though it's a very short duration, people poo-poo this defense buff but I love it.  Good recharge high damage, can take a force feedback recharge proc to keep it charged more often too.  Great power.

[Scarlet Shocker]

Thankyou Dove, that's EXACTLY what I wanted to know!

 

Question re Swap Ammo - I've heard that Chemical Ammo works really well when paired with Poison - which is what I want to pair it with. How do these different powers actually work?

 

 

[Dark Dove]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Thankyou Dove, that's EXACTLY what I wanted to know!

 

Question re Swap Ammo - I've heard that Chemical Ammo works really well when paired with Poison - which is what I want to pair it with. How do these different powers actually work?

 

 

 

Swap Ammo does a couple things, it changes a portion of the damage your attacks do to the ammo type instead of the standard 100% lethal damage, and an additional effect INSTEAD of the standard ammo knockbacks on top of that. so:

 

Incendiary:  Attacks will do 70% lethal and 30% FIRE damage.  Each attack also adds a Fire Damage over Time instead of knockback.

Cryo: Attacks will do 70% lethal and 30% COLD damage.  Each attack also has a Slow effect instead of knockback.

Chemical: Attacks will do 70% lethal and 30% TOXIC damage.  Each attack also has a -Damage Debuff instead of knockback.

 

All ammo types besides the standard ammo will change Suppressive Fire's Disorient/Stun into a HOLD instead.

 

You can pretty much swap anytime, the ammo types are just no-cooldown toggles with zero end costs basically.  Want Chem?  Click it, you're good until you turn it off or switch to another.

 

Edit: Here's a build I put together in a rush, think it covers everything and shows some of the crazy slotting you can do with Dual Pistols to get a lot out of the set.

Spoiler

 

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Poison
Secondary Power Set: Dual Pistols
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Envenom -- AchHee-ResDeb%(A), HO:Lyso(3), HO:Lyso(3)
Level 1: Pistols -- SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), SprDfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Weaken -- CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(A), CldSns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(9), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(11), CldSns-ToHitDeb(11)
Level 4: Empty Clips -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(A), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(17), SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(17), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(19), FrcFdb-Rechg%(19)
Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(21)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Ksm-ToHit+(21), Rct-ResDam%(23)
Level 10: Swap Ammo
Level 12: Neurotoxic Breath -- ImpSwf-Acc/Slow(A), ImpSwf-Dam%(50)
Level 14: Super Speed -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 16: Bullet Rain -- HO:Nucle(A), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(23), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(25), PstBls-Dam%(25), JvlVll-Dam%(27), FrcFdb-Rechg%(27)
Level 18: Paralytic Poison -- UnbCns-Hold(A), UnbCns-Hold/Rchg(29), UnbCns-Acc/Hold/Rchg(29), UnbCns-Acc/Rchg(31), UnbCns-EndRdx/Hold(31)
Level 20: Suppressive Fire -- HO:Endo(A), UnbCns-Dam%(31), GldNet-Dam%(33), GldJvl-Dam%(33), Dcm-Build%(33), NrnSht-Dam%(34)
Level 22: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), UnbGrd-Max HP%(34), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(34), UnbGrd-ResDam(36), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(36), StdPrt-ResKB(50)
Level 26: Poison Trap -- NrnSht-Dam%(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(36), GldNet-Dam%(37), ScrDrv-Dam%(37), Obl-%Dam(37), Erd-%Dam(39)
Level 28: Executioner's Shot -- HO:Nucle(A), Apc-Dmg(39), Apc-Dam%(39), TchofLadG-%Dam(40), ShlBrk-%Dam(40), FrcFdb-Rechg%(40)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 32: Venomous Gas -- DarWtcDsp-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(A), DarWtcDsp-Rchg/EndRdx(42), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(43), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb(43)
Level 35: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(43), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(45)
Level 38: Hail of Bullets -- Arm-Dam%(A), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Arm-Acc/Rchg(46), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(46), FrcFdb-Rechg%(48)
Level 41: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(48), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 44: Tactics -- HO:Cyto(A), GssSynFr--Build%(50)
Level 47: Antidote -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(13), Mrc-Rcvry+(13)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(15)
Level 10: Chemical Ammunition
Level 10: Cryo Ammunition
Level 10: Incendiary Ammunition
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon
------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Dark Dove

[Carnifax]

One interesting point about Swap Ammo, even if you Swap so as to switch off the Knockback Forced Feedback procs still have the same chance to trigger. So if you can manage to squeeze it into Empty Clips and Bullet Rain you'll get a decent number of triggers from it even if you're running Incendiary 95% of the time. 

 

On the "mez shutting off offensive toggles" thing yes it is very annoying, especially "micro-mezzes" where you get stunned or slept for a second or two. Poison, Nature, Rad and Time suffer from it badly. You've some options. Defense is good because if the mez misses it can't mez you (Time is quids in there). RoP will give 1/3 coverage and can be used when mezzed. You'll still need to reactivate the toggle though. I'm hoping the devs change these to "surpress when mezzed" instead at some point. 

[Scarlet Shocker]

Good info Dove, thanks again.

 

So your build is very proc heavy - now I am not in any way an expert but my understanding is that Mids gives unrealistic expectations of how procs work. Makes them seem better than they actually are.

 

Personally I tend to distrust procs anyhow - I feel like they are too much like gambling. I much prefer set bonuses.

 

I also hate the fighting pool. It seems to take so many resources, though I do admit the benefits are good. It just grates having to use it to get the res and def I want.

 

 

[Dark Dove]

47 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Good info Dove, thanks again.

 

So your build is very proc heavy - now I am not in any way an expert but my understanding is that Mids gives unrealistic expectations of how procs work. Makes them seem better than they actually are.

 

Personally I tend to distrust procs anyhow - I feel like they are too much like gambling. I much prefer set bonuses.

 

I also hate the fighting pool. It seems to take so many resources, though I do admit the benefits are good. It just grates having to use it to get the res and def I want.

 

 

 

Proc slotting is better (specific power and powerset dependent but I'm speaking generally), it's not even close most of the time, but you do what's fun for you.  Extensive testing has been done, nobody is relying on mids to report the performance as these tests were done in game, so feel free to peruse the proc monster threads for more information. Dual Pistols is not very good without some procs being used, but top five when a lot of procs are used.  If you don't want to use procs much but do want a high performance blast set, I'd suggest something like Fire, which is already overtuned without procs.

 

Fighting pool is a build choice, not a requirement, I was just demonstrating an efficient build, there's a thousand ways to build without Fighting.

 

The game can be 99% solo completed with SO enhancements though, so you do what's fun for you, that's what matters.

[Parabola]

7 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

So your build is very proc heavy - now I am not in any way an expert but my understanding is that Mids gives unrealistic expectations of how procs work. Makes them seem better than they actually are.

Mids is pretty accurate for average proc performance in most powers. The rule of thumb is that barring the odd incorrect value here and there any ordinary single target or aoe click powers can be relied on. Things get a bit more wonky when you talk about toggle powers and anything that uses pseudopets. Toggles tend not to be great for procs and pseudopets can go either way (some are outstanding, some not so good). But for a set like dual pistols mids is on the money as far as I know. It is a really good set for procs, one of the best in the game.

[Scarlet Shocker]

That makes sense. I've tried getting my head round the proc threads. Frankly they make my brain melt - but I appreciate the point you make. You've given me something to go at for sure 🙂 It's gonna be a fun experiment and one I guess will be long term.

 

I'm actually enjoying a raft of Poison fenders, I've got a nice Poison/Sonic on the go at the moment too. I think that is one of my preferred primary sets.

[Scarlet Shocker]

7 minutes ago, Parabola said:

Mids is pretty accurate for average proc performance in most powers. The rule of thumb is that barring the odd incorrect value here and there any ordinary single target or aoe click powers can be relied on. Things get a bit more wonky when you talk about toggle powers and anything that uses pseudopets. Toggles tend not to be great for procs and pseudopets can go either way (some are outstanding, some not so good). But for a set like dual pistols mids is on the money as far as I know. It is a really good set for procs, one of the best in the game.

 

That's useful info thanks.

[Ankhammon]

Something to pay attention to is when you can/should go into defensive vs offensive mode with the bullets.

 

I prefer to make toxic my default position because they grant a rather large -damage debuff on them. The debuffs range from 10 to 25%. Adding just a couple of them to your weaken and venom gas and you end up with quite impressive amounts of -Dam. Should be able to keep like 65 to 70% -Dam on a single big baddie and ramp up to like 55% -Dam on groups for short periods of time.

[Scarlet Shocker]

5 hours ago, Ankhammon said:

Something to pay attention to is when you can/should go into defensive vs offensive mode with the bullets.

 

I prefer to make toxic my default position because they grant a rather large -damage debuff on them. The debuffs range from 10 to 25%. Adding just a couple of them to your weaken and venom gas and you end up with quite impressive amounts of -Dam. Should be able to keep like 65 to 70% -Dam on a single big baddie and ramp up to like 55% -Dam on groups for short periods of time.

That probably suits me well then. I tend to play somewhat defensively, I try and build my toons to not miss, to debuff, rather than do outright damage, so that may be a good option for me. Thanks for the info.

[Doomguide2005]

On 5/30/2021 at 5:02 AM, Scarlet Shocker said:

That probably suits me well then. I tend to play somewhat defensively, I try and build my toons to not miss, to debuff, rather than do outright damage, so that may be a good option for me. Thanks for the info.

I believe that is also why the recommendations for pairing with Poison, namely Poison is a strong debuffer including even more damage debuff ability.

[Bananiac]

Does anybody have a Build he's willing to share for a damage / proc heavy DP on a Defender?

I am trying to figure out how to set up my Emp/DP...

[Dahkness]

3 hours ago, Bananiac said:

Does anybody have a Build he's willing to share for a damage / proc heavy DP on a Defender?

I am trying to figure out how to set up my Emp/DP...

I pretty much tried to proc out every power for my DP.  But I run Time so I don’t have to really worry about slotting for ACC. 

 

 

https://www.midsreborn.com/builds/download.php?uc=1483&c=751&a=1502&f=HEX&dc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

Edited June 13, 2021 by Dahkness