Trick Arrow Suggestions (Acid arrow mostly but also EMP)

[Bartacus]

I've been playing a fire/TA corruptor lately and I enjoy him a lot for the most part.

 

But, I'm a little confused by Acid Arrow. It's supposed to be the only power in the game (to my knowledge) that reduces debuff resistance. That is, if someone resists a kind of debuff, it reduces that resistance so the debuff will hit them harder. If they have, say, 75% Regeneration debuff resistance, then -Regen debuffs will be less effective against that target. However, what doesn't make sense to me is that for some reason debuff resistance isn't reduce by a flat amount. The ability says that it will reduce debuff resistance by 30%, but that amount is itself resisted. That doesn't even make sense... no other kind of resistance works this way. If I have Smashing resistance, I do not also (implicitly as a result of that smashing resistance) have smashing resistance debuff resistance. (I think I said that right). 

 

All this means is that what was supposed to be a very special power in Trick Arrow is actually not that useful. When I use it on a GM with 75% Regen debuff resistance... it puts them somewhere in the 60s which is not very significant... and certainly not enough to help TA compete with other good debuff sets. 

Also, this is less important to me but EMP arrow could use a buff of some kind still. They added a damage resistance buff/mez protect buff which sounds nice, except it's on a set that has exclusively ranged abilities. "But oh!", you say, "This gives TA an option of buffing teammates. Other support sets do this!" Yeah, except because it affects both teammates and enemies, the only people that are likely to receive this buff are melee characters... which already have their own defense and mez protection. If I'm shooting this at enemies to hold them or debuff them (honestly usually not worth it except vs AVs), then the only people that will ever be in range of this buff is melee characters who will not need it anyway. 

 

My (potentially unpopular) two cents is that they drop the mez protect/resistance buff and make it possible to have this ability up for permanent -regen debuff. That is, reduce the recharge of it. 

 

Thoughts?
 

[arcane]

18 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

If I have Smashing resistance, I do not also (implicitly as a result of that smashing resistance) have smashing resistance debuff resistance. (I think I said that right). 

I’m pretty sure that actually IS how it works. Defense has DDR but there is no Resistance equivalent because resistance also provides resistance to resistance debuffs (say that five times fast).

 

EMP Arrow is great. The resistance may be situational, but you can’t discount the AoE hold. For that reason, it can never be perma. Focus on using it to safely set up all your other debuffs (or for -regen if against an AV specifically). The resistance buff is just icing on top of all of that.

 

Trick Arrow is now well into the “Very strong, do not buff further” class of powersets.

Edited May 25, 2021 by arcane

[Bartacus]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

I’m pretty sure that actually IS how it works. Defense has DDR but there is no Resistance equivalent because resistance also provides resistance to resistance debuffs (say that five times fast).

 

EMP Arrow is great. The resistance may be situational, but you can’t discount the AoE hold. For that reason, it can never be perma. Focus on using it to safely set up all your other debuffs (or for -regen if against an AV specifically). The resistance buff is just icing on top of all of that.

So, to be clear... If a target has 70% Smashing resistance and I use a -30% resistance debuff... they are NOT at 40% resistance? I actually haven't checked that but that feels silly.

And, I disagree about EMP. I can definitely discount the 1 mag hold. it's fairly useless against anything but robots where it's not a 1 mag hold. 

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Bartacus said:

So, to be clear... If a target has 70% Smashing resistance and I use a -30% resistance debuff... they are NOT at 40% resistance? I actually haven't checked that but that feels silly.

And, I disagree about EMP. I can definitely discount the 1 mag hold. it's fairly useless against anything but robots where it's not a 1 mag hold. 

Correct, I believe, but others could verify. And I’m not at my computer right now, but am seriously wondering what power I’ve been using if EMP Arrow is Mag 1. I have to check that. I doubt it.

[Apparition]

Trick Arrow is now the best support set in the game, possibly tied with Cold Domination.  It does not need a buff at all.  EMP Arrow is great as is and is one of the best powers in the game.  The mez protection and resistance buff has a 25 foot radius, which is definitely greater than melee range.  I keep it up permanently in the bowl of Rikti mothership raids, where it impacts myself and everyone else in the bowl.

[Bartacus]

8 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Trick Arrow is now the best support set in the game, possibly tied with Cold Domination.  It does not need a buff at all.  EMP Arrow is great as is and is one of the best powers in the game.  The mez protection and resistance buff has a 25 foot radius, which is definitely greater than melee range.  I keep it up permanently in the bowl of Rikti mothership raids, where it impacts myself and everyone else in the bowl.

Yikes. I'll have to hard disagree with that one. Trick arrow is much much better than it was before - but it's certainly not the 'best support set in the game.' And more importantly, EMP is FAR... FAAAAAAAAR from one of the best powers in the game. I don't know what to say to you other than that. 25 ft is not enough to be 'more than melee range' in a given mob. you'd have to actively move yourself into melee range/danger on a ranged character to receive this buff. Of that I am certain.

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Bartacus

[Bartacus]

14 minutes ago, arcane said:

Correct, I believe, but others could verify. And I’m not at my computer right now, but am seriously wondering what power I’ve been using if EMP Arrow is Mag 1. I have to check that. I doubt it.

yeah, it's a mag 1. except against robots. 

[Luminara]

2 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

I'm a little confused by Acid Arrow. It's supposed to be the only power in the game (to my knowledge) that reduces debuff resistance.

 

It isn't.  Benumb is the one I can think of off the top of my head, and I think there are a few others.

 

Ice Arrow and EMP Arrow also debuff various resistances to debuffs now.

 

4 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

However, what doesn't make sense to me is that for some reason debuff resistance isn't reduce by a flat amount. The ability says that it will reduce debuff resistance by 30%, but that amount is itself resisted. That doesn't even make sense... no other kind of resistance works this way. If I have Smashing resistance, I do not also (implicitly as a result of that smashing resistance) have smashing resistance debuff resistance. (I think I said that right). 

 

All resistances work this way.  Resistance of any kind resists debuffing that kind of resistance.  This was first noted in Resistances to various forms of damage.  Your Smashing Resistance has always resisted debuffs to Smashing Resistance.  It's either a quirk of the way resistances were designed, or a specific mechanic implemented before the game went live.  Resistance resisting resistance debuffs was what inspired Defense Debuff Resistance (DDR), because Defense had no comparable mechanism at the time and needed a way to be made closer to Resistance for parity between types of mitigation.

 

7 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

All this means is that what was supposed to be a very special power in Trick Arrow is actually not that useful. When I use it on a GM with 75% Regen debuff resistance... it puts them somewhere in the 60s which is not very significant... and certainly not enough to help TA compete with other good debuff sets.

 

Actually, that small reduction in regeneration resistance brings TA near the top of the pack, despite EMP Arrow's -Regen having a duration which can't be made perma.  @Bopper, can you drop the link to your beta analysis of TA?

 

10 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

Also, this is less important to me but EMP arrow could use a buff of some kind still. They added a damage resistance buff/mez protect buff which sounds nice, except it's on a set that has exclusively ranged abilities. "But oh!", you say, "This gives TA an option of buffing teammates. Other support sets do this!" Yeah, except because it affects both teammates and enemies, the only people that are likely to receive this buff are melee characters... which already have their own defense and mez protection. If I'm shooting this at enemies to hold them or debuff them (honestly usually not worth it except vs AVs), then the only people that will ever be in range of this buff is melee characters who will not need it anyway. 

 

/powexec_location target me EMP Arrow

 

You have to keep in mind, this isn't a power exclusive to players who stay at range, or even to defenders/corruptors.  Every controller and mastermind can gain massive benefit from having a ranged AoE status protection for their pets, and every defender/corruptor/controller/mastermind who goes into melee range (for example, to use a PBAoE debuff or status effect), or finds themselves being attacked at melee range, can benefit from EMP Arrow.  Even as a purely ranged defender/corruptor, using it on yourself is beneficial.  If you're on a team, you're likely to have other teammates near you who also lack status protection, and you've got the answer to that in your pocket.

 

There are no restrictions on how you use EMP Arrow, beyond the ones you set for yourself.

 

26 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

My (potentially unpopular) two cents is that they drop the mez protect/resistance buff and make it possible to have this ability up for permanent -regen debuff. That is, reduce the recharge of it.

 

Here's the rub: defenders (and corruptors) aren't controllers, and what you're recommending is essentially restoring the power to being one of the best controls in the entire game, simply by virtue of being on a shorter recharge than standard AoE Holds.  And if the Hold is removed or the duration shortened even more than it was, then it essentially becomes just a -Regen/Special... which, frankly, would be absolute shit as a T9 power.  I expect more from my T9 than a delayed access version of Lingering Radiation or weaksauce, whittled down Benumb.  EMP Arrow, as it is now, is useful in a very wide variety of situations and for everyone who has access to it, thanks to that status protection, and that makes it a good power.

 

Going to have to /jranger this idea.

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, Bartacus said:

yeah, it's a mag 1. except against robots. 

 

Mag 3, 10.43s duration (defender).

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=redirects.trick_arrow.emp_arrow_burst&at=defender

[arcane]

Also, the implication that only melee characters chill in melee is incorrect just sayin’ 😉

 

3 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

yeah, it's a mag 1. except against robots. 

I’m 99% sure you’re reading it backwards and it’s mag 3 except for an extra mag 1 against robots. I can test and see if it holds minions / lieutenants though if you’d like.

 

Anyway, the only metric in which TA is not amazing as a debuff set now is raw -regen, but its debuff to debuff resistances and its massive resistance debuff will do just fine for AV’s. Teams aren’t as dependent on -regen as they used to be. At least not at incarnate levels.

[arcane]

6 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Mag 3, 10.43s duration (defender).

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=redirects.trick_arrow.emp_arrow_burst&at=defender

Yeah I looked there too. But even stronger than my belief that Uberguy did not make a typo is my own memory of this power... holding things.

[Luminara]

23 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

So, to be clear... If a target has 70% Smashing resistance and I use a -30% resistance debuff... they are NOT at 40% resistance?

 

That's correct.  The target resists your 30% -Resistance by 70%, resulting in a 21% debuff, but only for that specific damage type.  The target will still be debuffed by the full -Resist value for all damage types to which it has no Resistance.  So if that target has no Lethal Resistance, it will take 30% more damage from Lethal attacks, as expected.

 

All resistances work the same way, even the Special resistances.

[Bartacus]

7 minutes ago, Luminara said:

It isn't.  Benumb is the one I can think of off the top of my head, and I think there are a few others.

Benumb does not do this. Benumb reduces Special and does not reduce resistance to debuffs (tohit debuffs, end debuffs, regen debuffs etc.) As far as I'm aware, no other power does this. But, I would definitely be interested in seeing what Bopper said as to how this works out in my favor. It seems kind of useless and I'm thinking about dropping it now. 

11 minutes ago, Luminara said:

All resistances work this way.  Resistance of any kind resists debuffing that kind of resistance.  This was first noted in Resistances to various forms of damage.  Your Smashing Resistance has always resisted debuffs to Smashing Resistance.  It's either a quirk of the way resistances were designed, or a specific mechanic implemented before the game went live.  Resistance resisting resistance debuffs was what inspired Defense Debuff Resistance (DDR), because Defense had no comparable mechanism at the time and needed a way to be made closer to Resistance for parity between types of mitigation.

I actually really didn't know this and it makes a little more sense now. I still think the power seems underpowered, but as said above I'm interested in the analysis because maybe there's something I'm not seeing. 

 

3 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Mag 3, 10.43s duration (defender).

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=redirects.trick_arrow.emp_arrow_burst&at=defender

Literally it says 'if electronic.' Idk how many ways to say this... that's only for robots. Unless all the tooltips in the game are wrong... and they certainly could be.

9 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Here's the rub: defenders (and corruptors) aren't controllers, and what you're recommending is essentially restoring the power to being one of the best controls in the entire game, simply by virtue of being on a shorter recharge than standard AoE Holds.  And if the Hold is removed or the duration shortened even more than it was, then it essentially becomes just a -Regen/Special... which, frankly, would be absolute shit as a T9 power.  I expect more from my T9 than a delayed access version of Lingering Radiation or weaksauce, whittled down Benumb.  EMP Arrow, as it is now, is useful in a very wide variety of situations and for everyone who has access to it, thanks to that status protection, and that makes it a good power.

Yeah, I agree I don't want it to just be a T9 lingering radiation... I'm just throwing out ideas. I do not believe the hold is substantial given that it's mag 1. It certainly doesn't make my corruptor feel like a controller when I use it on mobs. And, the more you guys talk about it the more it makes sense to me the way it is. It just doesn't happen to fit the way I'm desiring to play my character which is okay I guess. I liked the idea of having it at a range and I also like the idea of being able to massively debuff AVs/GMs. As a result of this, if I want to solo an AV, I'll have to choose between the very short -regen and having some of that resistance and that kinda stinks but I guess it's whatever. 

 

 

[Zeraphia]

I wouldn't call it "top of the pack" but it's definitely in the same tier as the other high achievers. It's definitely in league with a lot of serious heavy contenders, so I don't see a need for a buff to this set, which already got buffed. Yes, what you've pointed out may be unfortunate but I have to say, as a total package of TA, it is a wonderful set and definitely not in need of a buff.

[Bartacus]

again, this could be wrong. but if it is it should be changed.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Actually, that small reduction in regeneration resistance brings TA near the top of the pack, despite EMP Arrow's -Regen having a duration which can't be made perma.  @Bopper, can you drop the link to your beta analysis of TA?

Not at home, so I haven't read the context of this post. If you're talking about my analysis done back in August on the closed beta testing, I can try to copy/paste it below.

 

---

 

I expanded on my previous analysis, adding Traps and Storm Summoning. I underestimated Storm, it doesn't debuff everything but what it can debuff it is top tier. Reminder, this analysis is done using 375% total recharge in every power (perma-hasten amount), and Defense Debuffs are enhanced to 90% while To-Hit Debuffs are enhanced to 54%. So treat this as only performance potential with high-end build. With the simple rank-order analysis, Trick Arrow remains on top through incredible consistency. Of the 7 powersets anaylzed, Trick Arrow ranked between 3rd and 5th in every category other than To-Hit, which it ranked 2nd (arguably, that one is up for debate but I gave the edge to its AV performance). Anyways, here's the breakdown of everything.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Bopper

[Bartacus]

Thanks for posting that. It's helpful - Although I don't know if it totally answers my question/thought.

 

I think especially with a -regen debuff (for example) consistency is very important for the targets that debuff is useful on. Having a solid regen debuff up only half the time makes it considerably less solid even if the number looks high at first glance. Also doesn't really tell me the effect of Acid arrow on -regen debuffs (or other debuffs) as a whole. Still a cool bit of data nonetheless.

[Luminara]

 

3 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

Benumb does not do this. Benumb reduces Special and does not reduce resistance to debuffs (tohit debuffs, end debuffs, regen debuffs etc.)

 

Special is a catch-all term for debuff resistance debuffs.  Benumb does, in fact, debuff ToHit debuff resistance.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=defender_buff.cold_domination.benumb&at=defender

 

6 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

Literally it says 'if electronic.' Idk how many ways to say this... that's only for robots. Unless all the tooltips in the game are wrong... and they certainly could be.

 

The detailed info is bugged.  It's a mag 3 Hold, 50% chance for +1 mag.  I use EMP Arrow, I know what it does, and you can verify this information by testing it yourself.  You don't even have to level up a character, just hop on the test server and auto-level to 50, waltz into the Portal area of PI and pop it on the first lieutenant you see.

 

15 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

It just doesn't happen to fit the way I'm desiring to play my character which is okay I guess. I liked the idea of having it at a range and I also like the idea of being able to massively debuff AVs/GMs.

 

With TA, you can have both.  EMP Arrow's radius is 25', and it's location-targeted, so you can target a spot 24' away from the AV, stand 24' away from that spot and have almost 50' of distance between you and the AV, and still both debuff said AV and enjoy the benefit of having status protection.  TA even gives you a ridiculously short recharge time Immobilize to use on that AV so you don't have to risk entering melee range, with bonus -Res in that Immobilize on top of what you get from Disruption.

 

17 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

As a result of this, if I want to solo an AV, I'll have to choose between the very short -regen and having some of that resistance and that kinda stinks but I guess it's whatever.

 

The -Regen duration is 45 seconds (double -Regen strength for the first 15s, then listed value for the subsequent 30s), and with aggressive slotting and some IO set bonuses, you can swing a 50% up time on it.  In concert with Acid's -Regen, it's shown to work as effectively as the best Regeneration debuffs in other sets even without being permanent.  If you throw in perma-Hasten and the Spiritual Core alpha, you can bring the recharge time of EMP Arrow down to ~65s, if you really feel the need to push it further.

[Apparition]

Yeah, the -Regen on my EMP Arrow has a 2/3rds up time as it is up for 45 seconds and my EMP Arrow recharges in 68 seconds.  66% uptime is enough.

[Luminara]

10 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

Also doesn't really tell me the effect of Acid arrow on -regen debuffs (or other debuffs) as a whole.

 

Acid debuffs Regeneration debuff resistance by 40% (defender).  Resistance to Regeneration debuff resistance debuffs (and this is why we refer to these types of debuffs as Special, so we don't have to struggle through that phrasing for every one of them) would reduce that debuff's final effect somewhat, and the math is the same as you'd use for calculating -Res to damage when the target has +Res to a damage type if you want to figure it out.  But, essentially, the result would still be MOAR DEBOOF POWAH.  It may not be much, such as in the case of facing a +4 AV (purple patch reduces debuff strength right out of the gate) with 70% resistance to Regeneration debuffs, but it does reduce the resistance some, and every little bit counts at that point.

[Bartacus]

alright. guess i'm just wrong. thanks for the insight guys.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Bartacus

[Bopper]

On 5/25/2021 at 5:37 PM, Bartacus said:

alright. guess i'm just wrong. thanks for the insight guys.

I still haven't read everything in this thread, but I did skim most of it.

 

You are right about Benumb, it debuffs strength (not resistance). So it acts as an anti-powerboost. In regards to debuffing debuff resistances, I believe Acid Arrow is truly unique (and underappreciated, as your post highlights).

 

Debuffing debuff resistances works much like debuffing damage resistances, in that a resistance debuff of X% makes your debuffs X% more powerful, despite the targets resistance level (unless they have 100% resistance, of course).

 

Let's do an example. Let's say a target has 40% resistance to regeneration debuffs. You apply a 80% regeneration debuff on the target, but thanks to its resistance it only takes a 48% debuff [80% x (100%-40%) = 48%]. 

 

Now let's say you use Acid Arrow and apply a 40% debuff to their resistance to regeneration debuffs. Their original 40% resistance will resist your 40%, so their new resistance will not be 40% - 40% = 0%, instead it will be 40% - 40% x (100% - 40%) = 16%.

 

Now your 80% regen debuff against their 16% resistance results in the following final debuff: 80% x (100% - 16%) = 67.2%.

 

So how much did we improve?

67.2% / 48% = 1.40 (40% increase in debuff performance).

 

As you can see, this is significant...it's giving you and all your teammates a 40% increase in debuff performance against affected targets.