Do AoE Sleeps even serve a purpose in today's City of Heroes?

[Thrythlind]

It's a pacing tool... which, admittedly is all of control (including tanking) mainly you're going to use AoE sleep on adds that you don't want to deal with right now. Especially if tank has gone over aggro cap. It can also be used to cut short the durations of some enemy toggles.

Now... PBAoE sleeps are a little bit....ehhh because of this.

And PBAoE sleeps on a TANKER are terrible

Edited June 7, 2021 by Thrythlind

[Riverdusk]

18 hours ago, Greycat said:

It depends on the sleep.

Mind? (Targeted AOE) Yes. Being able to put a group (or, yes, a single, even with an AOE) to sleep is handy. Yes, even if it breaks right away. And yes, there are ... not infrequent times shutting down a group with multiple bosses with defenses a Sleep can shut down (but other effects would not) is useful, even if the sleep is broken right away.

 

Ice? (PBAOE) No. I constantly skip that, since *I* don't want to be in range of anything the sleep would hit - I'd rather use a hard control (or ice patch) on them.

 

15 hours ago, MTeague said:

 

Actually, considering Flash Freeze does slight PBAE damage and can thusly taken Melee AoE sets, I could see people Proc-Bombing with Flash Freeze. If the damage procs all fire just a hair before the sleep kicks in (sleep IS on a very slight delay), you'd potentially get in free damage and slept mobs.  orrrrrrr mobs that are really pissed off at you when someone else wakes them up, lol. 

 

Probably proc-bombed more as an Ice/Ice/Ice blaster epic power than as an Ice Controller power, though. 

 

Ice's sleep (flash freeze) is ranged.  Maybe you are confusing it with the hold.  Flash freeze has a 60 foot range and takes ranged aoe damage sets, not melee. 

 

Hence why I said it actually is one of the few sets I found use for it.  One issue I have though is that sometimes mobs still do get off a shot before the sleep takes effect because it does damage and so the sleep isn't immediate.  Also because the range is only 60 feet.  I find to make it safer to use it helps to slot range which is a knock against it as that's more slots.  It'd be nicer if the base range was set to 80 feet.  It'd also be nice if it had the same recharge as some of the other sleeps (45 seconds rather than 90).  Those two changes at least would be a slight improvement anyway.

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

/snip

 

 One issue I have though is that sometimes mobs still do get off a shot before the sleep takes effect because it does damage and so the sleep isn't immediate. 

Ah hell, that annoys the snot out of me, lol. If memory serves, that started after the patch that prevented Super Speeders from doing drive by attacks. So the mobs respond instantly to your attack now...ever since then, sleeps, damage or not, gives them a chance to act before they go under. If I am not mistaken that is.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Solarverse

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

So yes, it has its uses, but do those uses happen enough to justify me putting it in to my build? For me, not usually. Pretty rare actually. I just wish Sleeps had some after effect that will kick in after the sleep is broken, maybe perhaps a short lived disorient effect, or perhaps a short lived hold effect, or a short lived confuse effect...depending on which powerset it is applied to that is and what makes sense for that powerset.

 

Powersets always have had "bread-n-butter" powers that tend to get the most attention, the most slotting, carries the bulk of the set's effect/role, etc.  I don't think it's realistic to expect to use every power on every spawn without consideration and expect to be rewarded for it.  You don't use Seeds of Confusion followed up by Vines followed up by Spore Burst.  That's just not how control is supposed to be played.

 

Considering the prospect that players want to revisit control sets and their aspects like the AoE holds that recharge too slowly for their duration,  I really don't think *every* power in a control set should have universal use.  And if we'd be looking into adding some kind of benefit to sleeps to add to their usefulness, it should be a reward for using said sleeps as they are intended to be used, not for merely spamming it...like if Flash Freeze had a huge but short duration -dmg res debuff on waking the target but only takes effect after a delay of 8sec of them being asleep.  Then, you can *create* synergies with your team (because then it relies on timing, prioritization and coordination) rather than expecting synergies to just be inherent.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Riverdusk said:

 

 

Ice's sleep (flash freeze) is ranged.  Maybe you are confusing it with the hold.  Flash freeze has a 60 foot range and takes ranged aoe damage sets, not melee. 

 

Hence why I said it actually is one of the few sets I found use for it.  One issue I have though is that sometimes mobs still do get off a shot before the sleep takes effect because it does damage and so the sleep isn't immediate.  Also because the range is only 60 feet.  I find to make it safer to use it helps to slot range which is a knock against it as that's more slots.  It'd be nicer if the base range was set to 80 feet.  It'd also be nice if it had the same recharge as some of the other sleeps (45 seconds rather than 90).  Those two changes at least would be a slight improvement anyway.

To be honest, I forgot which sets have PBAoE Sleeps.  I, for some reason, figured the Blaster Flash Freeze in the epic was just a different power from the Ice control and the Ice/TA controller I play didn't take Flash Freeze because he already has PGA and he's short on power picks.

 

The only control sets with AoE sleeps are Elec, Earth, Ice, Mind and Plant and of those, they are all ranged except Earth.

 

Since part of the complaint about Sleeps is that their utility is rarely needed, I'm still suggesting to fix *that* rather than just make sleeps into another premiere CC/debuff since most controlly ATs already enjoy an abundance of control OR are mostly redundant on any straight forward content.

[DougGraves]

If you mean the godmode, IO set bonus the game is trivially easy and takes no skill even soloing +4/x8 - then no, sleeps have no purpose. 

 

If you mean in any team larger than about 2, sleeps really have no use except in electric control.  The other players just awaken them too quickly.

 

But if you mean in solo play with a non-aoe build that is not very powerful, then aoe sleeps do have a purpose.  Put the spawn to sleep and pick them off one by one.

 

I have to imagine there are at least 7 players who do this sometimes.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

 

Powersets always have had "bread-n-butter" powers that tend to get the most attention, the most slotting, carries the bulk of the set's effect/role, etc.  I don't think it's realistic to expect to use every power on every spawn without consideration and expect to be rewarded for it.  You don't use Seeds of Confusion followed up by Vines followed up by Spore Burst.  That's just not how control is supposed to be played.

 

Considering the prospect that players want to revisit control sets and their aspects like the AoE holds that recharge too slowly for their duration,  I really don't think *every* power in a control set should have universal use.  And if we'd be looking into adding some kind of benefit to sleeps to add to their usefulness, it should be a reward for using said sleeps as they are intended to be used, not for merely spamming it...like if Flash Freeze had a huge but short duration -dmg res debuff on waking the target but only takes effect after a delay of 8sec of them being asleep.  Then, you can *create* synergies with your team (because then it relies on timing, prioritization and coordination) rather than expecting synergies to just be inherent.

You make a valid point here. However, when I have sets to chose from between Ice and Fire, I have to look at the set as a whole and decide which set has the better abilities or control. So let's take my specific example that brought me to make this post. I decided to create a /Thorn Dom. I was going through all of the primary sets to see which one had the best control. When I looked at Ice, Stone and Mind, I simply had to pass them up because they all shared the same disadvantage to the the other previously mentioned sets. Sleep.

So that lead me to Fire, Elec, Plant and Dark as a primary choice. In the end, I ended up going with Fire because out of those choices, Fire not only had the most damage potential, but it also had the best control along with every single power in the set being powers that are not situational, but powers that can be used in any given circumstance.

Fire has the best damage AND the best controls for any situation, so it seemed a no brainer for me on which one to chose. After giving it some thought, it made me wonder why Fire is the best over-all set? Stone comes close even though it has a Sleep power that is easily skipped, but it also has a TON of debuffs that come with those powers. But over all, I still felt Fire would best serve my interests in this situation.

So having said that, it is clear for me personally, Sleeps hold sets back from a greater potential as they stand now and they are the sole reason I skipped over those sets on what to pair with /Thorn. Now that is just me though, I most certainly do not expect anyone else to agree with me or validate me.

[Naraka]

8 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Fire has the best damage AND the best controls for any situation, so it seemed a no brainer for me on which one to chose. After giving it some thought, it made me wonder why Fire is the best over-all set? 

 

You answered your own question.  You prioritize damage.

 

Fire is NOT the best control set.  I'd likely give that to Plant or Earth overall and in damage, I'd give that to Plant over Fire.  I'm assuming you didn't pick Plant Control because you already have a plethora of other Plant Control characters?  Because if not, you should have made a Plant/Thorn.  And for only pure control, I'd probably say Mind.  The presence of Sleep for those sets, if anything, is just a toy rather than a primary control tool so you won't really be penalized for not taking it.

 

I'm not familiar with Electric Control so that might be an outlier and even it has an AoE sleep.

 

Personal opinion, I think the only real foundation your argument has to stand on is that Ice Control might not be up to snuff.  You might be able to get by adding something to their sleep power but I'd hardly think you could make an argument to buff Plant Control further by adding more effects to its sleep or Mind Control for that matter.

 

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

to a large extent it depends on your playstyle of course. I love AoE sleeps on toons I solo a lot because it makes for a great "panic button" - if you've aggro'd a mob and are swamped, then hit the snooze button and they go byebyes, and you can then use ST attacks to pick them off one by one.

 

Also any AoE benefits from slotting Might of Empire, which is very fun in many powers. I think that could have some hillarious results with an AoE sleep

 

[Solarverse]

31 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 

You answered your own question.  You prioritize damage.

 

Fire is NOT the best control set.  I'd likely give that to Plant or Earth overall and in damage, I'd give that to Plant over Fire.  I'm assuming you didn't pick Plant Control because you already have a plethora of other Plant Control characters?  Because if not, you should have made a Plant/Thorn.  And for only pure control, I'd probably say Mind.  The presence of Sleep for those sets, if anything, is just a toy rather than a primary control tool so you won't really be penalized for not taking it.

 

I'm not familiar with Electric Control so that might be an outlier and even it has an AoE sleep.

 

Personal opinion, I think the only real foundation your argument has to stand on is that Ice Control might not be up to snuff.  You might be able to get by adding something to their sleep power but I'd hardly think you could make an argument to buff Plant Control further by adding more effects to its sleep or Mind Control for that matter.

 

 

Damage was not the deciding factor, I want that to be crystal clear, but it was the one edge it had over the other choices that tilted in its favor.

As far as Fire not being the best control set, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Stone is a strong competitor though, because the Defense Debuffs is just incredible and hard to overlook. But it still has that aching pain in my back Sleep ability. Plant...nah, For my personal taste, I cannot agree there. The cast times are longer than Fire, it has a +regen Spirit Tree that has nothing to do with controlling, it has an AoE Sleep that I am not a big fan of and it has a Tier 8 that is nothing more than a Pet Damage ability that is on a long recharge timer. IMO that set was a huge miss on missed opportunities. It has the typical single target immob, single target hold, AoE immob, a sleep, a confuse, AoE Hold and that's it. Pretty basic for a control set for my taste.

Fire on the other hand, has a single target fast casting single target immob, an extremely fast casting single target hold, and extremely fast casting AoE immob, a -ToHit/-Perception, an AoE Stun, an AoE Hold, and an AoE continuous knock down when you add a KB to KD in it, plus...the set as a whole does more damage as an added bonus.

For me personally, Fire is far superior to Plant. The only set better IMO is Stone, but again, it has Sleep in the set and for this character I wanted to avoid a set that had a sleep in it.

Overall, I would say the order of best to worst is as follows, 1: Stone 2: Dark 3: Elec 4: Fire and in that order. Just my opinion though. I am nobody though, so take that with a grain of salt, lol.

 

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Solarverse

[Naraka]

56 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

As far as Fire not being the best control set, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. 

 

Sure.

 

57 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Plant...nah, For my personal taste, I cannot agree there. The cast times are longer than Fire, it has a +regen Spirit Tree that has nothing to do with controlling, it has an AoE Sleep that I am not a big fan of and it has a Tier 8 that is nothing more than a Pet Damage ability that is on a long recharge timer. IMO that set was a huge miss on missed opportunities. It has the typical single target immob, single target hold, AoE immob, a sleep, a confuse, AoE Hold and that's it. Pretty basic for a control set for my taste.

 

That's a very reductionary view of what Plant is capable of but sure.

 

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Fire on the other hand, has a single target fast casting single target immob, an extremely fast casting single target hold, and extremely fast casting AoE immob, a -ToHit/-Perception, an AoE Stun, an AoE Hold, and an AoE continuous knock down when you add a KB to KD in it, plus...the set as a whole does more damage as an added bonus.
 

 

Nothing in that set feels "more" than other control sets besides Bonfire and, personally, I don't like using broken powers.  Overall, I'd say don't feel bad when KB>KD IOs in Bonfire get nerfed.

 

As for IOs, Plant is rife with proc opportunities which I find more entertaining in the long run as it doesn't deduct from the control aspect of the set.  All in all, I am not a big fan of Plant mainly due to how mainstream it is and how one-note it plays but it is a very powerful set with a lot of offensive potential.  Fire is mostly held up by not balancing KB>KD IOs.

 

That all aside, I don't think the presence of sleep is holding any of those sets back.  In some cases, it's partially a balancing tool since sleep is a niche control effect.  Earth Control doesn't need more control OR debuffs and Mind Control is perfectly serviceable without the sleep and actually benefits a lot from having the sleep as an option.  Plant is certainly not held back by having a sleep (or an AoE +regen) and Elec can utilize its sleep patch very proficiently while burning the foes' END.

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 

That's a very reductionary view of what Plant is capable of but sure.

No kidding. Now that I made one of those plant doms that can clear the meteor map in 4 minutes, I can safely say you are correct.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

 

 Fire is mostly held up by not balancing KB>KD IOs.

 

 

Why would they nerf that and not Ice Slick or Earth Quake? Is it not the same thing? I don't want to get in to the "it's broken" discussion, because that is just way too much my opinion vs your opinion and I'm not looking to pick any fights, but as far as I understand, it works just like Ice Slick or Earth Quake, does it not? Is there something it is doing differently?

Come to think of it, it doesn't really need a KB to KD IO because the Immob is a -KB, so even without the KB to KD IO it will still do the same thing. Unless I am missing something here?

Edited June 8, 2021 by Solarverse

[arcane]

54 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Why would they nerf that and not Ice Slick or Earth Quake? Is it not the same thing? I don't want to get in to the "it's broken" discussion, because that is just way too much my opinion vs your opinion and I'm not looking to pick any fights, but as far as I understand, it works just like Ice Slick or Earth Quake, does it not? Is there something it is doing differently?

Come to think of it, it doesn't really need a KB to KD IO because the Immob is a -KB, so even without the KB to KD IO it will still do the same thing. Unless I am missing something here?

Immobilizes with -KB do not allow the foe to even be knocked down, neutralizing the mitigation tool entirely.

 

Bonfire is not immediately comparable to Ice Slick or Earthquake because, even though they function similarly after you pop a KB->KD in Bonfire, Bonfire was designed with KB in mind - meaning it was not intended to always be doing all that damage. The damage was only originally occurring with the occasional tick of KB out of the patch, and now you get all of it. It is obvious that its damage numbers mean wildly different things depending on KB vs KD, which is why one could conclude it is broken with KD if using the damage numbers from the KB days. That said, I don’t find that it does *too much* damage even with KD, but would be interested to hear what the devs think of it. 

Edited June 8, 2021 by arcane

[Solarverse]

11 minutes ago, arcane said:

Immobilizes with -KB do not allow the foe to even be knocked down, neutralizing the mitigation tool entirely.

 

Bonfire is not immediately comparable to Ice Slick or Earthquake because, even though they function similarly after you pop a KB->KD in Bonfire, Bonfire was designed with KB in mind - meaning it was not intended to always be doing all that damage. The damage was only originally occurring with the occasional tick of KB out of the patch, and now you get all of it. It is obvious that its damage numbers mean wildly different things depending on KB vs KD, which is why one could conclude it is broken with KD if using the damage numbers from the KB days. That said, I don’t find that it does *too much* damage even with KD, but would be interested to hear what the devs think of it. 

Ah okay, I see. Well then wouldn't it make more sense to lighten the damage and not so much the KB to KD IO? I understand it was not meant for KD, however, neither was any of the other powers that can use a KB to KD IO.

P.S. I am not really all that experienced with Fire for Trollers/Doms, so some of this is kind of new to me.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Solarverse

[Naraka]

53 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Why would they nerf that and not Ice Slick or Earth Quake?

Ice Slick and Earth Quake isn't 100% mitigation on targets with no KB protection.  There are periods where the foe can get a shot off or move a short distance because the KB chance isn't 100%.  Bonfire w/ KB>KD pulses the KD 100% before the targets get up because it's meant to be KB.  It also pulses damage which might lean into why you prioritize it over the -ToHit in Earthquake or -def in EQ and Ice Slick.

 

To get off that topic, I honestly don't care that Bonfire can do crazy things.  I tend to not slot that IO in the power (for the Blaster version.  I don't have a Fire Controller) but that is just personal preference.  Back on sleeps, I'd prefer to buff enemies to make sleeps more advantageous but if that isn't possible, changing the sleeps to provide the user greater benefit for using them as sleeps would be my preferred choice but then you still wouldn't be using sleep powers off cooldown.

[Naraka]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

Ah okay, I see. Well then wouldn't it make more sense to lighten the damage and not so much the KB to KD IO? I understand it was not meant for KD, however, neither was any of the other powers that can use a KB to KD IO.

As a positioning tool, that can seem like a punishment to control ATs that bury foes into a corner and keep them popping in a corner using Bond Fire.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Naraka said:

Ice Slick and Earth Quake isn't 100% mitigation on targets with no KB protection.  There are periods where the foe can get a shot off or move a short distance because the KB chance isn't 100%.  Bonfire w/ KB>KD pulses the KD 100% before the targets get up because it's meant to be KB.  It also pulses damage which might lean into why you prioritize it over the -ToHit in Earthquake or -def in EQ and Ice Slick.

 

To get off that topic, I honestly don't care that Bonfire can do crazy things.  I tend to not slot that IO in the power (for the Blaster version.  I don't have a Fire Controller) but that is just personal preference.  Back on sleeps, I'd prefer to buff enemies to make sleeps more advantageous but if that isn't possible, changing the sleeps to provide the user greater benefit for using them as sleeps would be my preferred choice but then you still wouldn't be using sleep powers off cooldown.

Sounds like to me it needs to be brought in line with Ice Slick and Earth Quake and then the damage needs to be brought WAY down. However, I don't see them taking the ability to put a KB to KD in it going well with players. Just sounds like a balancing issue to me.

So should I not play Fire then? I mean, one of the reasons I am taking fire is for the KD of Bonfire, if they are just going to nerf it in a way that negates that KD, then I would be better off with Stone.

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, Naraka said:

As a positioning tool, that can seem like a punishment to control ATs that bury foes into a corner and keep them popping in a corner using Bond Fire.

What have the Devs said about it?

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Ah okay, I see. Well then wouldn't it make more sense to lighten the damage and not so much the KB to KD IO? I understand it was not meant for KD, however, neither was any of the other powers that can use a KB to KD IO.

P.S. I am not really all that experienced with Fire for Trollers/Doms, so some of this is kind of new to me.

Yeah it would. But I’m not too bothered by it either way. As a damage patch it still is never quite overwhelming. And my Plant/Psy Dom clears Bloody Rainbow a good bit quicker than my Fire/Kin Troller nowadays. If it is overpowered, it’s perhaps not by much. Bigger fish to fry.

[Naraka]

2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Sounds like to me it needs to be brought in line with Ice Slick and Earth Quake and then the damage needs to be brought WAY down. However, I don't see them taking the ability to put a KB to KD in it going well with players. Just sounds like a balancing issue to me.

So should I not play Fire then? I mean, one of the reasons I am taking fire is for the KD of Bonfire, if they are just going to nerf it in a way that negates that KD, then I would be better off with Stone.

 

Bonfire has been like it is for a while.  If it does change, it probably won't be anytime soon but even if it does change, if you find it fun, use it while you can.

 

I remember when the P2W proc enhancement that knocked down was 100% chance and I played my Shield/DM with that enhancement slotted in Shadow Maul and abused it for the lolz all the way from level 1 to 38.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Naraka said:

 

Bonfire has been like it is for a while.  If it does change, it probably won't be anytime soon but even if it does change, if you find it fun, use it while you can.

 

I remember when the P2W proc enhancement that knocked down was 100% chance and I played my Shield/DM with that enhancement slotted in Shadow Maul and abused it for the lolz all the way from level 1 to 38.

The thing is, I spent a LONG time trying to figure out what to pair with /Thorn and Fire was my eventual primary that I decided on. So I plan to play this particular character long term and right now he is only level 20 since I have only soloed with him so far by doing the story arcs. However, eventually I will be teaming with him, getting him all decked out and such and I honestly don;'t want to continue playing him if they are going to nerf one of the key functions that was a determining factors for choosing it in the first place, heh. So if it's going to get nerfed, I would kind of like to know about it so I can re-roll now before he gets any higher level, I'm sure you can get where I am coming from there...we have all suffered that demise at one time or another, lol.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Are you talking about AoE Immob + KB/KD patches like Bonfire, Ice Slick or Earthquake? If so that is incorrect. For Controllers at least this was patched some time back where the AoE Immobilize no longer cancels the patches effects. They prevent movement but allow the flopping.

I kind of thought so too, but I didn't want to make a point out of it until I found out for 100% fact.

[Naraka]

1 minute ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Are you talking about AoE Immob + KB/KD patches like Bonfire, Ice Slick or Earthquake? If so that is incorrect. For Controllers at least this was patched some time back where the AoE Immobilize no longer cancels the patches effects. They prevent movement but allow the flopping.

Then that would mean that, without the KB>KD IO, Bonfire would just knock the target out of the patch regardless of the immobilize.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Naraka said:

Then that would mean that, without the KB>KD IO, Bonfire would just knock the target out of the patch regardless of the immobilize.

I think what he is saying, is that it would cause them to knock down instead of knock back. Basically, it serves the same purpose as the KB to KD IO. But, if you fail to use the AoE Immob, it would fling them all over the place. That's if my assumption is correct, I have not tested this so I am not 100% on this.