Two possible changes for Stalker...

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, PainX said:

i think alot of AT's can accomplish that with enough willpower between OP incarnates and IO's really anything with those two is borderline OP maybe not MM since pets tend to still drop like flies and dont get truly broken IO bonuses due to their mechanics and AI fighting you every step of the way could probably do it just think it would be horrible i guess

Haha yeah, for me MM is my biggest nightmare to play.  And those pets on +4/8, Good Luck, especially the minions spawning at 48+1 (they are nigh useless IMO).  

 

But given that other ATs do it as well, it's nothing special that Stalkers can.  A buddy just did it with a Illusion/Storm last week.  For me that is also a nightmare.   Anyhow when I do it again it will not be on a tank or stalker.  😜

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, FUBARczar said:

Just saying, your first post stated:

 

Anyhow, yeah fixing older sets would be AWESOME.  I don't think Stalkers need a buff, but if the quick AS could be made more reliable that would be AWSEOME!

 

For instance I'd love to see MA get Dragon's Tail. 

 

Or Ninja Blade getting a PBOE so its not weaker than Katana, 

 

It just seems kind of anti-climatic that an actual Ninja, on the Ninja style AT  Say NIN/NIN Stalker, is a weaker choice than picking Kat/NIN on a scrapper. 

 

And its a waste of the coolest looking assassin strike power. 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

You could.  But not "Tank Gods" style where the enemies are buffed.  I tried that for fun and got stomped, badly.  

 

But just +4x8 using inspirations?  I'm sure you could, the only problem I see is the last Romulus fight and that #*)@)& Auto-hit nictus.  

 

Blasters and Defenders have solo'd ITF also

see this  

 

 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

Or Ninja Blade getting a PBOE so its not weaker than Katana, 

 

It just seems kind of anti-climatic that an actual Ninja, on the Ninja style AT  Say NIN/NIN Stalker, is a weaker choice than picking Kat/NIN on a scrapper. 

 

And its a waste of the coolest looking assassin strike power. 

What's more is that IMO Scrapper's and Sentinel's Ninjitsu > Stalker's Ninjitsu.  That's another slap in the face.

 

Stalker's Ninjitsu should be updated last year already.  Drop Smoke Flash for Bo Ryaku and add the movement buff from Shinobi-Iri to Bo Ryaku as well.

[Madae]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

but also less threat.

 

I'd argue this has more to do with being primarily ST with a majority of their power sets, and when they do get AoE, you're comparing it to AT's that are much better at holding aggro by virtue of having a more complete toolset, on top of Stalkers generally not being the first to hit to avoid the alpha strike that they more often than not can't survive through. Stalker is about being cautious and ambushing strong targets, not gathering up as much aggro as they can, which is less and less effective the further back in time with the power sets you go. Maybe there is a numbers game going on behind the scenes that someone has documented, or maybe it's even in the power info, I've never looked, but granting this as a "strength" of the AT seems rather silly considering how they are supposed to play. Every other AT can practically drop an aggro nuke on every single group you encounter, very few Stalker powersets can boast of the same thing.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Madae

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Madae said:

 

I'd argue this has more to do with being primarily ST with a majority of their power sets, and when they do get AoE, you're comparing it to AT's that are much better at holding aggro through virtue of having a more complete toolset, on top of Stalkers generally not being the first to hit to avoid the alpha strike that they more often than not can't survive through. Stalker is about being cautious and ambushing strong targets, not gathering up as much aggro as they can, which is less and less effective the further back the power tree you go.

 

I play my stalker exactly like a scrapper, other than leveraging my buildups / crits / ato stuff.  I never use slow AS. 

 

I rerolled my MA/EA as a STJ/EA and never looked back so I'd get scrapperish AOE

 

I charge forward ahead of the team and just attack with no plan.   

 

And Aggro still sheds off me like water off a duck's back.  As soon as the team members catch up the baddies ignore me and attack them.  Its actually hilarious. 

[Madae]

Just now, Haijinx said:

I never use slow AS.

 

I'm glad you said this, because it emphasizes the point I've been trying to make the whole time that I think Stalkers need a buff in two particular areas; Assassin's Focus (more of consistence thing) and a more attractive Assassin's Strike. Everything else this thread has stirred up seems to be, more or less, by the fact that I mentioned "buff", without considering the context of said argument.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Madae said:

 

I'm glad you said this, because it emphasizes the point I've been trying to make the whole time that I think Stalkers need a buff in two particular areas; Assassin's Focus (more of consistence thing) and a more attractive Assassin's Strike. Everything else this thread has stirred up seems to be, more or less, by the fact that I mentioned "buff", without considering the context of said argument.

 

Its just too slow.  I'd never use it even if buffed probably.  Besides the Quick AS puts me back in Hide after I use crushing uppercut, etc.   That get's more accomplished in less time. 

 

Its like a slow snipe.  Only really useful when soloing.   And if I'm soloing might as well just lower the difficulty and not use the slow stuff then either. 

[Madae]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Its just too slow.  I'd never use it even if buffed probably.  Besides the Quick AS puts me back in Hide after I use crushing uppercut, etc.   That get's more accomplished in less time. 

 

Its like a slow snipe.  Only really useful when soloing.   And if I'm soloing might as well just lower the difficulty and not use the slow stuff then either. 

 

And this is why I suggested the damage be increased to something equivalent of the rotation you'd take to get a fast AS, but others had good ideas too with some sort of buff/debuff aura, among other things. The suggestion box is open for what people think would be a good change for slow AS to be interesting again (and also consider this change would "fix" placate and make it more useful, too). People would rather argue the word "buff" though, or go with this strange scheme of changing numerous power sets to include generalized powers instead of trying to find solutions to this one simple issue, and the only thing that makes Stalker unique from the rest of the pack... why would anyone want to kill this uniqueness just to make a scrapper with hide? I don't get that.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Madae

[Haijinx]

12 hours ago, Madae said:

why would anyone want to kill this uniqueness just to make a scrapper with hide? I just don't get that.

 

That was basically my point.

 

They already have done that.  It was the end result of all the stalker buffs over the years.  Culminating in those newer sets with scrapper type AOE powers (not all of the new sets) and the way the ATOs work, favoring a fast paced, scrapperlock style play. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Haijinx

[Madae]

Just now, Haijinx said:

That was basically my point.

 

They already have done that.  It was the end result of all the scrapper buffs over the years.  Culminating in those newer sets with scrapper type AOE powers (not all of the new sets) and the way the ATOs work, favoring a fast paced, scrapperlock style play. 

 

But they haven't, because you yourself just stated you never use slow AS. Can we agree on that? Are you implying that you can't think of anything that would make you use slow AS again? Whatever point you're trying to make by dodging this question I don't really care about. What would YOU do to fix slow AS so you would use it again? That's what I want to know.

[Omega-202]

32 minutes ago, Madae said:

 

I'd argue this has more to do with being primarily ST with a majority of their power sets, and when they do get AoE, you're comparing it to AT's that are much better at holding aggro by virtue of having a more complete toolset, on top of Stalkers generally not being the first to hit to avoid the alpha strike that they more often than not can't survive through. Stalker is about being cautious and ambushing strong targets, not gathering up as much aggro as they can, which is less and less effective the further back in time with the power sets you go. Maybe there is a numbers game going on behind the scenes that someone has documented, or maybe it's even in the power info, I've never looked, but granting this as a "strength" of the AT seems rather silly considering how they are supposed to play. Every other AT can practically drop an aggro nuke on every single group you encounter, very few Stalker powersets can boast of the same thing.

Nope, Stalkers have a lower aggro modifier.  It's way more to do with the fact that Scrappers literally genenerate 1.5x the threat of Stalkers.

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Threat

 

You don't seem to know how the game works on a base level.  Another reason I can't take this thread seriously. 

[Haijinx]

Just now, Madae said:

 

But they haven't, because you yourself just stated you never use slow AS. Can we agree on that? Are you implying that you can't think of anything that would make you use slow AS again? Whatever point you're trying to make by dodging this question I don't really care about. What would YOU do to fix slow AS so you would use it again? That's what I want to know.

 

My point is you are arguing against a general trend that started way back on live.  And led us to where we are now.  Stalkers were made to be more like scrappers on purpose. 

 

Because due to power creep there is no real room on teams for the slow, tactical, deliberate type of combat that the slow Assassin's Strike belongs to.  No one is going to wait for you to sneak up to set up attacks.  Why should they?  There is no real threat from the baddies. 

 

Its mentioned in earlier posts here.  That its only valuable at low level.  Well that make sense since its only at lower levels are you in the sort of danger that requires stuff like tactics planning, strategy, and so on.  At higher levels its just Banzai!  All over the place at a much much more frenetic pace. 

 

There is no actual game for the slow AS to play in the team oriented zerg rush steamrolls we get.   Buffing AS or Stalkers won't help you.  Because the only way to make that slow assassination type play relevant is to make the game harder.  So that tactics matter again.  And that's never going to happen. 

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Omega-202 said:

Nope, Stalkers have a lower aggro modifier.  It's way more to do with the fact that Scrappers literally generate 1.5x the threat of Stalkers.

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Threat

 

You don't seem to know how the game works on a base level.  Another reason I can't take this thread seriously. 

 

Its kind of amazing actually.  Considering how Stalkers have pretty decent armor sets.  But it does explain why Stalkers are just as sturdy as scrappers on mixed teams from a practical standpoint.    

[Madae]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

 

My point is you are arguing against a general trend that started way back on live.  And led us to where we are now.  Stalkers were made to be more like scrappers on purpose. 

 

Because due to power creep there is no real room on teams for the slow, tactical, deliberate type of combat that the slow Assassin's Strike belongs to.  No one is going to wait for you to sneak up to set up attacks.  Why should they?  There is no real threat from the baddies. 

 

Its mentioned in earlier posts here.  That its only valuable at low level.  Well that make sense since its only at lower levels are you in the sort of danger that requires stuff like tactics planning, strategy, and so on.  At higher levels its just Banzai!  All over the place at a much much more frenetic pace. 

 

There is no actual game for the slow AS to play in the team oriented zerg rush steamrolls we get.   Buffing AS or Stalkers won't help you.  Because the only way to make that slow assassination type play relevant is to make the game harder.  So that tactics matter again.  And that's never going to happen. 

 

The problem we have here is that rather than come up with a solution, and possibly looking like a fool as people jump all over you like you're jumping all over me for merely suggesting that Stalker could have an interesting change to an interesting ability, you'd rather just avoid it and argue some other asinine point about how things can never change because "reasons". I don't care what the trend is, or what you think it is, I care about what things we can discuss to make this particular part of a Stalker fun again, and if just so happens to lead to a change, we'll all be the better for it... but, nah, let's just argue and call each other names like Omega thinks we should do.

[Omega-202]

3 minutes ago, Madae said:

 

The problem we have here is that rather than come up with a solution, and possibly looking like a fool as people jump all over you like you're jumping all over me for merely suggesting that Stalker could have an interesting change to an interesting ability, you'd rather just avoid it and argue some other asinine point about how things can never change because "reasons". I don't care what the trend is, or what you think it is, I care about what things we can discuss to make this particular part of a Stalker fun again, and if just so happens to lead to a change, we'll all be the better for it... but, nah, let's just argue and call each other names like Omega thinks we should do.

Never called you a name.  You just don't know what you're talking about.  

[Madae]

I'm going to act like you no longer exist for that incredibly trollish post, Omega. Feel free to stop talking to me whenever you get tired of trying.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Madae said:

 

The problem we have here is that rather than come up with a solution, and possibly looking like a fool as people jump all over you like you're jumping all over me for merely suggesting that Stalker could have an interesting change to an interesting ability, you'd rather just avoid it and argue some other asinine point about how things can never change because "reasons". I don't care what the trend is, or what you think it is, I care about what things we can discuss to make this particular part of a Stalker fun again, and if just so happens to lead to a change, we'll all be the better for it... but, nah, let's just argue and call each other names like Omega thinks we should do.

 

I'm not jumping over you.  

 

I'm just stating the way things have been trending over the years when it comes to the game and to stalkers.

 

The game has been on a steady climb towards more and more power creep, reducing the relative challenge of encounters and reducing the time of individual encounters with Mobs of baddies.  Thus speeding up play.  You seem to want a style of play that is more deliberate.  That's just not how things have been going.  All the stalker buffs went the other way.  They turned Stalkers who were already very scrapperish more scrapperish.  

 

And so they have a fairly high level of power.  Because scrappers are in a really good place.  So if stalkers are very close to that ... etc.  Thus my stating that Stalkers do not need buffed. (Again.  They have already been buffed several times) 

 

I'm all for making the game much much harder.  Then you can bring the assassin and sniper stuff in I guess.  But I don't see it happening.   

[Madae]

Just now, Haijinx said:

 

I'm not jumping over you.  

 

I'm just stating the way things have been trending over the years when it comes to the game and to stalkers.

 

The game has been on a steady climb towards more and more power creep, reducing the relative challenge of encounters and reducing the time of individual encounters with Mobs of baddies.  Thus speeding up play.  You seem to want a style of play that is more deliberate.  That's just not how things have been going.  All the stalker buffs went the other way.  They turned Stalkers who were already very scrapperish more scrapperish.  

 

And so they have a fairly high level of power.  Because scrappers are in a really good place.  So if stalkers are very close to that ... etc.  Thus my stating that Stalkers do not need buffed. (Again.  They have already been buffed several times) 

 

I'm all for making the game much much harder.  Then you can bring the assassin and sniper stuff in I guess.  But I don't see it happening.   

 

That's fine a dandy, but none of that means we can't talk about it or offer suggestions. You can start by coming up with something too so we're back on topic.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Madae said:

 

That's fine a dandy, but none of that means we can't talk about it or offer suggestions. You can start by coming up with something too so we're back on topic.

 

Okay.  Buff several Baddie types to have much higher defense.  Defense that doesn't work if the attacker is Hidden. 

 

There now Assassin Strikes and Sniper attacks have more utility. 

[Madae]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

Okay.  Buff several Baddie types to have much higher defense.  Defense that doesn't work if the attacker is Hidden. 

 

There now Assassin Strikes and Sniper attacks have more utility. 

 

That's quite a bit more of a far-reaching change than just changing Assassin's Strike, probably more to do with your earlier argument about the game being made harder to adjust to these "sweeping Stalker changes". Maybe if it was possible to apply a "negative defense" stat, or something else, to the strike instead that acted like this suggestion, maybe that would be better/easier, almost like an accuracy bonus, but only applying in specific circumstances or something.

[Lockpick]

 

 

8 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

You don't seem to know how the game works on a base level.  Another reason I can't take this thread seriously. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

Never called you a name.  You just don't know what you're talking about.  

 

He clearly articulated the the challenges with AS, so he knows what he is talking about from the AS standpoint.  Not knowing the aggro modifier is a minor point (which I admit I didn't know either), but that does not indicate that Madae does not understand the base game,  That is a ridiculous statement to make.  I've been playing the game since launch and I still learn things on a regular basis.  It doesn't mean a lack of understanding of the base game.

 

Dismissing the entire argument over a little known mechanic and replying in an uncivil manner makes it seem like you are only interested in trolling.  If that is all you want to do why don't you take that shit somewhere else or just stop replying?

 

I'm actually interested in seeing some suggestions on how to address the original points around AS. 

 

[tidge]

I'm perfectly fine with where Stalkers are in the game; I prefer my Stalkers over my Scrappers.

 

Like every other AT there are some primary/secondary power sets that could stand some tweaking (or availability) but as far as revisiting the AT inherents and ATOs: Stalkers would probably have the lowest priority.

 

This is not meant to be snarky: I suggest the OP try several other ATs to REALLY hone that sense of righteous indignation.

[ZemX]

10 hours ago, Haijinx said:

There is no actual game for the slow AS to play in the team oriented zerg rush steamrolls we get. 

 

Not at all true.  The thing about AoE is that it hits everything the same.  That means it kills minions first, LTs second, and bosses dead last.  By a lot.  Bosses have several times the HP and more damage resistance.  If the team has AoE covered, most Stalkers should switch to ST mode and go after bosses first.  That complements the team.  And the slow AS can still be used here if you run just 3 seconds ahead of the team.  Tankers already know to do this when they want to begin bunching up the next spawn for the nukers.  Just go with them and assassinate a boss.

 

Animation time doesn't mean diddly if it happens before the fight starts.  If you've done it right, the team is arriving to drop their bombs just as or after your AS is landing.  ST chain some bosses, then leave for the next.

 

It works.  But that said... good grief is it boring.  When people on forums tell me "every" team is like this, my only thought is... why?  Find different teams folks!  Exemplar.  Do weird stuff.  Don't you get bored of just +4/x8ing radio teams or ITFs all the time?  At some point that ceases to be playing and just becomes Progress Quest: The Search for Rewards.

 

Maybe it's me, but I have to break that up with oddball mission teams at lower levels.  Weird pick-up team composition?  That's a feature, not a bug!  Or take a break soloing/badging which Stalkers are also fantastic at.  I've tried to play Scrappers and they're great too, but just not as interesting to me.  

[Naraka]

13 hours ago, Lockpick said:

 

Read through the thread and it seems this post has some people up in arms.  Not sure why since it is just an opinion.  You are articulating my experience with Assassin's Strike especially in teams.  I wouldn't mind seeing some fix there.

 

I don't agree that stalkers are terrible at everything else.  On Live I played on Scrappers; here I am playing more Stalkers.  I do think Stalkers have gaps compared to Scrappers, but I like the stealth aspect of the AT and they can be built pretty sturdy with the right investments.

 

I don't agree with some in the thread that Stalkers are OP.  I'm not seeing stalkers soloing ITF at +4/8, but definitely seeing threads with tankers doing it.  I expect Brutes and Scrappers are as well.

 

Lol I guess I'm one of those "up in arms" too?

 

I think the funny thing is, the OP asked for me to elaborate but wanted me to respond his way. There's a saying about beggars not being choosers or some such...

 

And when people say "OP", it's likely being used broadly or hyperbolic. Even if Stalkers are OP, there are a lot of other OP factors across other powersets/ATs that should be addressed before stalkers. And even if Stalkers aren't literally OP, that isn't a damned free pass to add stuff for practically no reason besides "that'd be cool". You can suggest it all day, but don't call foul when you get a dissenting opinion.