Sentinels. Why???

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Where do Stalkers get Hide from?  Free power they start with in addition to the normal T1 secondary?

 

Ugh. You are absolutely correct on dinging me on that. Edit 2: And for the record, yea, the inclusion of Hide created a completely new powerset called Stalker-SR that shouldn't exist. Hide should be part of the inherent and not part of the armor.

 

Here's the side by side on brute vs stalker SR:

Brute:

Stalker:

 

I knew there was another reason I always hated stalkers.

Stalker order would follow the other AT order with the exception of the power removed to make way for Hide.

So stalker order *would* be:

Hide

FF

FS

Agile

PB/MB

Dodge

Evasion

Quickness

Elude

 

Edit: Since I'm waxing philosophical at this point, the order for Tank/Brute/Scrapper *should* be:

FF

FS

Evasion

PB/MB

Quickness

Dodge

Agile

Lucky

Elude

 

And stalker:

Hide

FF

FS

Evasion

PB/MB

Quickness

Dodge

Agile

Elude

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Chaos String]

 

9 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Hide should be part of the inherent and not part of the armor.

 

 

If Hide is inherent, how do I escort hostages?  Call a brute?

[Nightmare Shaman]

It's always the same - People who either have never played or just don't play Sentinels complaining about Sentinels.  They're fine.  They are a niche and offer a different playstyle.  The complainers ALWAYS say "why play Sentinel when I can be a Blaster" or just complain about the damage OR the target caps.  (Target caps are annoying, I admit.)

 

Essentially, the answer is simple.  You play a Sentinel if you want ranged damage plus full mez protection AND damage mitigation that you cannot achieve on the other ranged AT's.  No, they're not perfectly designed.  What AT is?  No, they're not over-powered.  But, nothing should be overpowered.  

They have enough unique elements to make them stand out and what they have works just fine.  My AR/Elec Sentinel has 75% resists to S/L/E/F/C/Psi and around 61% NE and 30% toxic.  That's without any incarnate powers, just IO bonuses.  It hits hard with 4 inherent AOE's plus two from Mu Patron all with full mez protection, high resists to the main problem damage types, from range.  (Not to mention very high regen and a heal up around every 45 seconds - although I almost never use the heal anymore.)  I can solo +8/+2 without blinking.  I can do +4, but it's just more annoying and takes longer.  There are many builds that cannot do that.  

There are several individual sentinel builds that could use some work.  Some elements of certain builds are counter-productive.  e.g. Builds were most of your damage comes from being in melee.  But, they are fun and effective to those who enjoy them.  If you haven't played one, you should take a look.  You have to really go through each and every primary and secondary because most have been altered in significant ways.  For example, AR has aim on Sentinels along with Full Auto having a 90 degree cone versus the 20 degree on blasters.  This makes a huge difference in how it's used.  Also, bean bag is gone and there is a new power called incinerator that is a high damage single target attack.  

If you don't like them, it's probably because you either are hung up on the design or just don't like the mechanics.  I don't like playing controllers anymore.  So, I don't play them anymore.  Simple.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Chaos String said:

If Hide is inherent, how do I escort hostages?  Call a brute?

 

Excellent question. You'd need click that allowed you to turn off hide as the P2W now has a power than allows you to turn off all powers. Since we know it can be done, it can be done.

[ZemX]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Excellent question. You'd need click that allowed you to turn off hide as the P2W now has a power than allows you to turn off all powers. Since we know it can be done, it can be done.

 

It's been done. 

 

Domination.

[PhaseZero]

18 minutes ago, Chaos String said:

 

I almost died laughing i think i broke something laughing so hard

 

If Hide is inherent, how do I escort hostages?  Call a brute?

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, PhaseZero said:

I almost died laughing i think i broke something laughing so hard

 

And so easily fixed. Imagine that.

[Blackbird71]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

And so easily fixed. Imagine that.

No more extra-clicky fiddly bits from P2W/Null to patch powers, please!

[PhaseZero]

19 minutes ago, Nightmare Shaman said:

It's always the same - People who either have never played or just don't play Sentinels complaining about Sentinels.  They're fine.  They are a niche and offer a different playstyle.  The complainers ALWAYS say "why play Sentinel when I can be a Blaster" or just complain about the damage OR the target caps.  (Target caps are annoying, I admit.)

 

Essentially, the answer is simple.  You play a Sentinel if you want ranged damage plus full mez protection AND damage mitigation that you cannot achieve on the other ranged AT's.  No, they're not perfectly designed.  What AT is?  No, they're not over-powered.  But, nothing should be overpowered.  

They have enough unique elements to make them stand out and what they have works just fine.  My AR/Elec Sentinel has 75% resists to S/L/E/F/C/Psi and around 61% NE and 30% toxic.  That's without any incarnate powers, just IO bonuses.  It hits hard with 4 inherent AOE's plus two from Mu Patron all with full mez protection, high resists to the main problem damage types, from range.  (Not to mention very high regen and a heal up around every 45 seconds - although I almost never use the heal anymore.)  I can solo +8/+2 without blinking.  I can do +4, but it's just more annoying and takes longer.  There are many builds that cannot do that.  

There are several individual sentinel builds that could use some work.  Some elements of certain builds are counter-productive.  e.g. Builds were most of your damage comes from being in melee.  But, they are fun and effective to those who enjoy them.  If you haven't played one, you should take a look.  You have to really go through each and every primary and secondary because most have been altered in significant ways.  For example, AR has aim on Sentinels along with Full Auto having a 90 degree cone versus the 20 degree on blasters.  This makes a huge difference in how it's used.  Also, bean bag is gone and there is a new power called incinerator that is a high damage single target attack.  

If you don't like them, it's probably because you either are hung up on the design or just don't like the mechanics.  I don't like playing controllers anymore.  So, I don't play them anymore.  Simple.

Yes your correct i believe they do 100 percent of promised when you start one.  I think some people who started a sent bought an SUV and than at some point they think the SUV should really behave like a sports car.  The only thing i think is wrong with the game balance compared to sents is blasters hitting a defense cap. It is a general easy  issue to fix even though it is not popular they can simple clamp stats to the scaling results they want through all AT's, of course this removes the art work in game balancing and the fun we all having complaining 🙂

[drbuzzard]

21 minutes ago, Nightmare Shaman said:

If you don't like them, it's probably because you either are hung up on the design or just don't like the mechanics.  I don't like playing controllers anymore.  So, I don't play them anymore.  Simple.

Or perhaps they have tried them and found them lacking. 

 

I've got, oh, 20ish sentinels decked out to at least 50+3 (with IOed builds of course). Almost all of which didn't get any PLing. I've tried all the secondaries to 50, and only energy blast didn't get pushed to 50 (because I didn't want to annoy myself with the KB>KD tax). 

I've played them through all sorts of content, incarnate, leveling up, TFs, hard stuff (not 801 though) and easy stuff. As I said in the second post of this thread, sents are fun for the ride to 50, but once there, fall behind other classes. They simply lack in damage. When HC popped up, my first this to build was a sentinel. Then I built sentinel after sentinel seeking the holy grail of something which was impressive at 50. They were always OK at 50, but no better than that. 

 

After a while I started with blasters (never liked them on live since they were so squishy). The damage was eye opening, and with some planning, IOs and incarnates, you can be plenty tough enough for stuff at 50. I have trouble taking seriously people who actually compare blaster to sentinel damage based on the scalars. There's also inherents and other factors which made a big difference. Just the inherents create a much larger gap than .95 vs. 1.125. This topic has been beaten to a bloody pulp over on the sentinel forum, so this rather long thread is quite redundant. 

 

Oh, and anyone who brings up stalkers or scrappers in comparison to sentinels simply makes me laugh. Those are two of the highest damage ATs in the game (yes, blasters are higher). Sentinels, manifestly are not. 

[drbuzzard]

9 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

 

Odd, tried to edit and it posted a response. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by drbuzzard

[Blackbird71]

9 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

Or perhaps they have tried them and found them lacking. 

 

I've got, oh, 20ish sentinels decked out to at least 50+3 (with IOed builds of course). Almost all of which didn't get any PLing. I've tried all the secondaries to 50, and only energy blast didn't get pushed to 50 (because I didn't want to annoy myself with the KB>KD tax). 

I've played them through all sorts of content, incarnate, leveling up, TFs, hard stuff (not 801 though) and easy stuff. As I said in the second post of this thread, sents are fun for the ride to 50, but once there, fall behind other classes. They simply lack in damage. When HC popped up, my first this to build was a sentinel. Then I built sentinel after sentinel seeking the holy grail of something which was impressive at 50. They were always OK at 50, but no better than that. 

 

After a while I started with blasters (never liked them on live since they were so squishy). The damage was eye opening, and with some planning, IOs and incarnates, you can be plenty tough enough for stuff at 50. I have trouble taking seriously people who actually compare blaster to sentinel damage based on the scalars. There's also inherents and other factors which made a big difference. Just the inherents create a much larger gap than .95 vs. 1.125. This topic has been beaten to a bloody pulp over on the sentinel forum, so this rather long thread is quite redundant. 

 

Oh, and anyone who brings up stalkers or scrappers in comparison to sentinels simply makes me laugh. Those are two of the highest damage ATs in the game (yes, blasters are higher). Sentinels, manifestly are not. 

 

So what you're saying is, the problem with Sentinels is IO sets? 😜

[drbuzzard]

Just now, Blackbird71 said:

 

So what you're saying is, the problem with Sentinels is IO sets? 😜

Well actually you do address one issue there. The sentinel ATOs are pretty much crap. Now admittedly ATOs vary in value by AT with some being downright transformational for the AT (scrapper is probably the standout). The sentinel ones are completely meh. The procs from the sets are quite meh, and the set bonuses are only so so. Yes, I do use them, but that's because they get you a decent recharge bonus. However one glaring fault is that ignore that many sentinel sets are resistance based, and give no resistance bonuses. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

27 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

No more extra-clicky fiddly bits from P2W/Null to patch powers, please!

 

Don't you have to click off hide for escorts now? How would that be different than a click you get with the inherent to suppress hide when needed?

[ZemX]

17 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

Oh, and anyone who brings up stalkers or scrappers in comparison to sentinels simply makes me laugh. Those are two of the highest damage ATs in the game (yes, blasters are higher). Sentinels, manifestly are not. 

 

Who said they were?  Certainly, I didn't.   So what's  to laugh at about comparing Sentinels to the two closest ATs in the game to... Sentinels?  Seems to me if you're balancing ATs, you look at similar ATs and try to fit them all in the spectrum somewhere.  Sentinels being roughly as sturdy as a Stalker but able to fight at range suggests to me they should do as much damage as Stalkers.  Ditto for Scrappers.

 

That's not to say they do enough damage already.  It's saying they shouldn't be boosted beyond Scrappers or Stalkers because... what would justify that?

[PhaseZero]

4 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

So what you're saying is, the problem with Sentinels is IO sets? 😜

No i think he might be saying the do as promised. But not sure what he was getting at by most dmg. all scale 10 dmg classes have the same dmg bonus cap of 500 percent. In a league setting blasters do less dmg than a corruptor. Corruptors actually have a higher base dmg to the same power than a blaster by about 3 percent. The plus bonus dmg on a blaster's inherent is what makes they do so much dmg in a non league setting. a blaster inherent basically is null in void once the dmg cap is reached. But a corruptors crit is not. I am assuming the dmg bonus is 400 percent on a sent. 

[PhaseZero]

4 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Who said they were?  Certainly, I didn't.   So what's  to laugh at about comparing Sentinels to the two closest ATs in the game to... Sentinels?  Seems to me if you're balancing ATs, you look at similar ATs and try to fit them all in the spectrum somewhere.  Sentinels being roughly as sturdy as a Stalker but able to fight at range suggests to me they should do as much damage as Stalkers.  Ditto for Scrappers.

 

That's not to say they do enough damage already.  It's saying they shouldn't be boosted beyond Scrappers or Stalkers because... what would justify that?

I guess they could completely rework them and just make them like a vanguard in SWOTR. Or maybe increase their defense to a brute lvl. or keep them as they are and just add a teaming component to them just the veats and the heats.  

[drbuzzard]

4 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Who said they were?  Certainly, I didn't.   So what's  to laugh at about comparing Sentinels to the two closest ATs in the game to... Sentinels?  Seems to me if you're balancing ATs, you look at similar ATs and try to fit them all in the spectrum somewhere.  Sentinels being roughly as sturdy as a Stalker but able to fight at range suggests to me they should do as much damage as Stalkers.  Ditto for Scrappers.

 

That's not to say they do enough damage already.  It's saying they shouldn't be boosted beyond Scrappers or Stalkers because... what would justify that?

I doubt anyone is making a case for that. Even the OP didn't exactly do that, he just opted for a very simplistic fix ('give them blaster damage'- but really what does that mean in this complicated a situation?). 

 

Though honestly I might make a case that VEATs, if built for ranged damage, are probably the closest thing to sentinels (but with good team buffs). 

[ZemX]

8 minutes ago, PhaseZero said:

I am assuming the dmg bonus is 400 percent on a sent. 

 

No, I think it's 500 percent.  The wikis don't appear to have been updated to include Sentinels on the Limits article.  City of Data lists "StrMax" for all damage types as 5.0 on Sentinel. Same as Corruptors, Blasters, Stalkers, and Scrappers.  Brutes are 7.0.   So I am pretty sure I'm looking at the damage enhancement cap there.

 

[drbuzzard]

6 minutes ago, PhaseZero said:

No i think he might be saying the do as promised. But not sure what he was getting at by most dmg. all scale 10 dmg classes have the same dmg bonus cap of 500 percent. In a league setting blasters do less dmg than a corruptor. Corruptors actually have a higher base dmg to the same power than a blaster by about 3 percent. The plus bonus dmg on a blaster's inherent is what makes they do so much dmg in a non league setting. a blaster inherent basically is null in void once the dmg cap is reached. But a corruptors crit is not. I am assuming the dmg bonus is 400 percent on a sent. 

I'm curious what the assumed value is for scourge as a damage multiplier. 

I mean just comparing the scalars at 500%, it's got to be hefty. 

 

.75*5 =3.75

1.125*5=5.625

5.625/3.75 =1.5 so it better boost damage by 50% over time to make your case. 

[ZemX]

1 minute ago, drbuzzard said:

I'm curious what the assumed value is for scourge as a damage multiplier. 

I mean just comparing the scalars at 500%, it's got to be hefty. 

 

.75*5 =3.75

1.125*5=5.625

5.625/3.75 =1.5 so it better boost damage by 50% over time to make your case. 

 

Scourge effectively multiplies Corruptor damage by 1.25 if averaged over a long enough period of time.

[drbuzzard]

1 minute ago, ZemX said:

 

Scourge effectively multiplies Corruptor damage by 1.25 if averaged over a long enough period of time.

So then on a league at max damage, blasters do more damage. 

[ZemX]

3 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

So then on a league at max damage, blasters do more damage. 

 

I should think so.

[PhaseZero]

1 hour ago, drbuzzard said:

I'm curious what the assumed value is for scourge as a damage multiplier. 

I mean just comparing the scalars at 500%, it's got to be hefty. 

 

.75*5 =3.75

1.125*5=5.625

5.625/3.75 =1.5 so it better boost damage by 50% over time to make your case. 

Damage - Paragon Wiki Archive

Link above is basically the scaler you see when you make a character i believe is directional correct but really is not used in any mechanic in the game. When the game was new back when there there was like 4 tank power sets, no IO, inherent abilities or even a villain side it was pretty close to being correct.  For example a WS range dmg is 1.2 which the scaler would suggest they do more dmg than a blaster but they do not since they do not get above a T-3 attack in nova form. I would suggest if your curious for a compare just make a blaster and corruptor lvl 1 review the same powers and move the lvl scale to 50  to see the base dmg difference at 50.

[Snarky]

I'd kill to play a Sentinel right now.  Give me the game back lol.  Even thought of one.  A theme actually, would love to see (be part of) an army of space marines.  Beam Rifle Invulnerability with very similar costumes....