aethereal Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 44 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said: I know this thread is about Sentinels, but since the concept of "inherent Hide" was brought up again by BillZ's quest to make every version of a powerset identical across ATs (something I don't personally agree with, for the record), the idea of a "free" inherent power already exists with Dominators. All Hide would have to be is a free, unslottable toggle power like how Domination is a free, unslottable click power. Hide already softcaps your AoE defense while active (and invisible) so it needs no slots there, it already costs nothing to run so no slots there either. All you actually lose is a "free" LotG proc mule, which might be worth getting one of the other powers originally lost from the set back. Hide gives in-combat defense that is enhanceable, for whatever that's worth. Not a ton, but some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Justice Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 Seems like blasters and sentinels could coexist if there was a 40% defense hard cap. Considering the consensus that there isn’t an issue until full IO builds and incarnates come into play, and the internal balance issues of def vs res. Guardian survivor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbuzzard Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said: Seems like blasters and sentinels could coexist if there was a 40% defense hard cap. Considering the consensus that there isn’t an issue until full IO builds and incarnates come into play, and the internal balance issues of def vs res. Hard 40% for everyone? I'd pity the defense based tanks then. It would also cut the already limited popularity of bubblers. Also, how would a sentinel based on defense be any better off than a blaster who get to that hard cap via IOs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarky Posted June 23, 2021 Author Share Posted June 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said: Seems like blasters and sentinels could coexist if there was a 40% defense hard cap. Considering the consensus that there isn’t an issue until full IO builds and incarnates come into play, and the internal balance issues of def vs res. This is a horrid deviation from the current state of affairs to perform a “fix” for a relatively new AT that has not received a tuning. Why would you change the entire “normal” for everyone to “possibly” find the “perfect fix” for this situation. Nurse Ratchet, bring me my mallet, I must anesthetize the patient!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Justice Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 1 minute ago, drbuzzard said: Hard 40% for everyone? I'd pity the defense based tanks then. It would also cut the already limited popularity of bubblers. Also, how would a sentinel based on defense be any better off than a blaster who get to that hard cap via IOs? It would be 40% for non tank types. 45% for tank/brute. 43% EATs. 45% defense is “equivalent” to 90% resistance. 40% defense is “equivalent” to 75% resistance. 43% defense is “equivalent to 85% resistance. The sentinel could have DDR and would have mez protection. Those two things become much more valuable when you are below the 45% softcap. Leaving a valuable space of durability vs dps between the blaster and sentinel. Guardian survivor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 13 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said: Seems like blasters and sentinels could coexist if there was a 40% defense hard cap. Considering the consensus that there isn’t an issue until full IO builds and incarnates come into play, and the internal balance issues of def vs res. 2 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said: It would be 40% for non tank types. 45% for tank/brute. 43% EATs. 45% defense is “equivalent” to 90% resistance. 40% defense is “equivalent” to 75% resistance. 43% defense is “equivalent to 85% resistance. The sentinel could have DDR and would have mez protection. Those two things become much more valuable when you are below the 45% softcap. Leaving a valuable space of durability vs dps between the blaster and sentinel. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbuzzard Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Brutal Justice said: It would be 40% for non tank types. 45% for tank/brute. 43% EATs. 45% defense is “equivalent” to 90% resistance. 40% defense is “equivalent” to 75% resistance. 43% defense is “equivalent to 85% resistance. The sentinel could have DDR and would have mez protection. Those two things become much more valuable when you are below the 45% softcap. Leaving a valuable space of durability vs dps between the blaster and sentinel. Umm, I question your math. If you want something which scales to 75%, then 37.5 defense is your number. Though nerfing every other AT (save tanks and brutes) for the sake of sentinels will fly about as well as a neutronium baloon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Justice Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, Snarky said: This is a horrid deviation from the current state of affairs to perform a “fix” for a relatively new AT that has not received a tuning. Why would you change the entire “normal” for everyone to “possibly” find the “perfect fix” for this situation. Nurse Ratchet, bring me my mallet, I must anesthetize the patient!! Because the 45% soft cap available to all archetypes creates issues of devaluation for more than just sentinels. It creates issues even within the same archetypes. Dark blast vs fire blast as one example. Guardian survivor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Justice Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, drbuzzard said: Umm, I question your math. If you want something which scales to 75%, then 37.5 defense is your number. Though nerfing every other AT (save tanks and brutes) for the sake of sentinels will fly about as well as a neutronium baloon. You are correct 40% defense is still stronger than 75% resistance. That’s why I put it in quotes. Its for for more than just sentinels. Edited June 23, 2021 by Brutal Justice Forgot the last line Guardian survivor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbuzzard Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 Yeah, just not going to fly. I mean if you really want the trinity on all teams, this is your path. Though that would certainly upset the apple cart. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Justice Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, Apparition said: You didn’t like my oxygen levels recommendation so I had to go back to one that was more relevant. 🐳 🦑 Guardian survivor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Justice Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, drbuzzard said: Yeah, just not going to fly. I mean if you really want the trinity on all teams, this is your path. Though that would certainly upset the apple cart. Do you already need a trinity when you play a resist based sentinel or scrapper? Guardian survivor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbuzzard Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said: Do you already need a trinity when you play a resist based sentinel or scrapper? Not on a sentinel since I can stay at range and pull little enough aggro due to lower damage. On a scrapper? I'd say yes. I've played exactly one, and it died like a mayfly because I played it like the rest of my melee builds which are generally either softcapped or at 90% resistance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 Brutal Justice's Law: As an online discussion grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of Brutal Justice posting a 40% defense hard cap as the solution to the problem raised in the thread becomes more likely. Sentinels don't do enough damage? Lower everyone's defenses to 40%! Masterminds' pets die too quickly? Lower everyone's defenses to 40%! There's a day job missing in Kings Row? Lower everyone's defenses to 40%! Too many catgirls in Pocket D? Lower everyone's defenses to 40%! 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverLaxx Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 55 minutes ago, aethereal said: Hide gives in-combat defense that is enhanceable, for whatever that's worth. Not a ton, but some. So does Combat Jumping, but the value you start with is so small that it's not worth slotting for Defense anyway. I was just speaking to how there's nothing worth slotting so making it an unslottable free power wouldn't really impact anything beyond losing a potential LotG mule. Which is, admittedly, something that certain builds will probably miss. That said, it's not really pertinent to the thread at hand and I don't think it's the "answer" to Stalkers anyway. It just fits how BillZ wants a Stalker to be since he generally doesn't like playing Stalkers in the first place and wants them to change so he might be more likely to pick one. In other news, Brutal Justice is back with his 40% defense cap talking point so I expect this thread to go even further off-topic. exChampion and exInfinity player (Champion primarily). Current resident of the Everlasting shard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Justice Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, drbuzzard said: Not on a sentinel since I can stay at range and pull little enough aggro due to lower damage. On a scrapper? I'd say yes. I've played exactly one, and it died like a mayfly because I played it like the rest of my melee builds which are generally either softcapped or at 90% resistance. I appreciate you recognizing the imbalance between defense and resistance on non tank/brute. With our current levels of power I am not about to recommend 90% resistance hard caps for all. I would rather curtail the power creep than continue its current inflation. Guardian survivor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Justice Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, Apparition said: Sentinels don't do enough damage? Its been mentioned several times in the thread now that sentinels do enough damage and that the issue is actually blasters become too durable for the gap in dps between the two. Not by me. Guardian survivor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZemX Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said: Its been mentioned several times in the thread now that sentinels do enough damage and that the issue is actually blasters become too durable for the gap in dps between the two. Good news! That's completely wrong! People can stop worrying about Blasters vs. Sentinels because it's Tankers vs. Sentinels. Here's what we've established so far in this thread about Sentinels and Tankers: Tankers: - Do more damage - Are way tougher - Can control aggro with taunt - Hit way more targets with their AoEs. Sentinels: - *checks notes*... umm... Blasting is "fun". Yeah, that's all I've got. Edited June 23, 2021 by ZemX 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Justice Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, ZemX said: Good news! That's completely wrong! People can stop worrying about Blasters vs. Sentinels because it's Tankers vs. Sentinels. Here's what we've established so far in this thread about Sentinels and Tankers: Tankers: - Do more damage - Are way tougher - Can control aggro with taunt - Hit way more targets with their AoEs. Sentinels: - *checks notes*... umm... Blasting is "fun". Yeah, that's all I've got. You also forgot that tanks have more hair on their chest. Which arguably could be argued as a good thing or a bad thing. Guardian survivor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Z Bubba Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 2 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said: His "simple fix" starts getting complicated really quickly once you go further down the rabbit hole than I think he realizes. No, I realize completely how complicated it would be. A huge amount of coding would have to be tweaked in every area of the game. It's just something I wish the devs had thought about early on. Would have made balancing issues far simpler to deal with moving forward. Instead, we get the mess we have now. One made messier with the creation of Sentinels and how their powersets were further altered from the originals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarky Posted June 23, 2021 Author Share Posted June 23, 2021 (edited) Wait? Didnt we already cover Sentinels do crap damage in the flame war section of this thread? Damn i hate the circular nature of these conversations Edited June 23, 2021 by Snarky 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZemX Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 7 minutes ago, Snarky said: Wait? Didnt we already cover Sentinels do crap damage in the flame war section of this thread? I'm pretty sure some joker covered that in like... the first post or something. Whoever that guy was. It was so very long ago, Snarky. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Z Bubba Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 36 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said: It just fits how BillZ wants a Stalker to be since he generally doesn't like playing Stalkers in the first place and wants them to change so he might be more likely to pick one. Again, wrong. You should really stop trying to put words in my mouth. I dislike stalkers specifically because Hide hides my costume and because their AoE output is generally garbage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siolfir Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 12 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said: So does Combat Jumping, but the value you start with is so small that it's not worth slotting for Defense anyway. I was just speaking to how there's nothing worth slotting so making it an unslottable free power wouldn't really impact anything beyond losing a potential LotG mule. Which is, admittedly, something that certain builds will probably miss. Yes and no - it's small (1.875%) in combat. Out of combat however, the extra defense is equivalent to Weave for all but AoE, where it's 37.5% instead, which is certainly worth slotting when you want to get to a position (and maybe use an interruptible melee power) without getting hit. Which is why I said just make it a slottable inherent like Sprint and let people decide if they want to put their limited slots - which are usually at more of a premium - in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexquisite Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 Clearly, there is only one solution that everyone can agree on. Nerf Regen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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