Return of the 5th Column

[Black Talon]

I did a search to see if someone had introduced this topic at some point; there didn't seem to be any relevant posts on the subject.

 

On the afternoon of Friday, July 2, I had Black Talon zipping around Steel Canyon, looking for appropriate-level Clockwork to take out in order to fulfill a "Go.  Hunt.  Kill Clockwork," mission.  And I happened across some guys standing on the street in a group of about three/four, looking rather Nazi-ish.  I stopped for a moment - Black Talon has Super Speed, so he can get within reasonable viewing distance without attracting attention - anticipating that these guys were going to be the Council or somesuch, and I saw the name below the NPC rank titles: 5th Column.  I blinked a couple times, trying to make sure my eyes weren't tricking me, but it was truth.  Now, I didn't have my guy attempt to take them down - a) too great a level-gap on their side, and b) too many.  But I was considering, afterward, how current management may have taken matters into their own hands and decided to resurrect a group that, I felt, exemplified some of the most heinous and reprehensible conduct and attitudes in recorded human history.  In other words, damn good villains for anyone to take the fist to.

 

Has anyone else noticed this occurring?  Has the 5th Column - and I know that Manticore's origin is specifically tied to them; I was kind of surprised that it hadn't been ret-conned, and a couple of my alts back in the day were the result of this group's depravity as well, which I was thinking might not have relevance anymore - been put back into action as a major villain group that we can scrap on the streets, in missions and in Task-Forces (where we'll get to take on their AVs) as well?  If so, what instigated these changes?  Whoever did so gets major thumbs-up and calls of approval from me, but the question remains as to why, and over what time period, these alterations were made.  No matter what, good to see genuine sons-of-bitches back in action.  Have at you.

[Glacier Peak]

No exact dates off the top of my head, but this was a change that occurred back in the legacy days. 

 

Homecoming Wiki is your friend:

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/5th_Column

[Greycat]

Yes, this happened back on live. And there were some complaints about it back on live, since they and the Council will fight each other, which makes "defeat X council" missions a bit more tedious.

 

You'll also find references to (and missions with, directly or indirectly) their leader, the Center.

[Black Talon]

Glacier Peak, thank you for the link; it certainly provides some indications as to when this started to occur - the question remaining, in my opinion, anyway, is why?  The 5th Column had a clear and absolutely inhuman set of goals that have been exemplified by any number of human war-criminals, individual and cultural alike, over the centuries; the Nazis just happen to be the most modern, successful (at the cost of how many human lives, we may never have an accurate count), and relentlessly self-promoting.  I took a course on the origins, philosophy (if you want to call it such), and history of the Nazis in my last year at university, and one thing that struck me was how the upper echelons of the Third Reich was overpopulated with failed artists.  I felt that this aspect carried through to the 5th Column as well; the relentless branding of their image on stone, paper, people...it was an ever-present advertising assault, along with whatever militaristic moves they took, and this again was something the real-life Nazis pushed for endlessly.

 

The reason I'm going into this is because the "Council" seemed, to me, to be simply a generic bad-guy group with no real set of identifying concepts, aside from "We're going to take over the world.  Why?  'Cuz."  If Homecoming has indeed brought back this association of monstrous pseudo-beliefs, I'll be as happy as anyone else to throw the gloves aside and say, "Time to clean house and knock down a few columns."  Although some insight into not just when it happened but why would be kind of nice as well.

[ZorkNemesis]

The 5th Column were originally part of the launch game, but were removed for issue 3 since they were too close in concept to actual Nazis.  If I recall correctly they were swapped out for a less Nazi-ish facist group in order to sell the game in Europe, Germany specifically.  They were re-added later after what I believe was some relaxation of censorship or something.  I don't know the full details myself but i'm positive their initial removal was simply to sell the game internationally.

[Glacier Peak]

Yeah, so they were removed in Issue 3 and readded in Issue 16. These were changes made before the Homecoming team started up on the Issue 24 branch.

[Luminara]

9 hours ago, Black Talon said:

Glacier Peak, thank you for the link; it certainly provides some indications as to when this started to occur - the question remaining, in my opinion, anyway, is why?

 

Because players strenuously objected when the 5th Column was replaced by the Council and frequently requested their return, and Paragon saw an opportunity to do that while adding to the depth of the game and richness of the Column/Council story.

[Black Talon]

Much appreciated, self-teaching lover of learning...uh, Autodidactic Philomath, sorry (the spell-check here doesn't even recognize those words - oh, the limits of digital lexicons...).  I get the point about, "Bring the fricking 5th Column back, screwheads!" completely; I believe I voiced an opinion about it or two on the old CoH public forums Back In The Day.  Irrespective of the internal story behind the Council/5th Column conflict, from my standpoint, it's pretty much a big "yeah, whatever"; I'm just happy to have a bunch of total sociopathic jerks who aren't afraid to make clear advertisement of their ridiculous viewpoints and, just as delightful, are perfectly happy to have their butts kicked in a person-to-person (although the Vampyrs hardly qualify as such) stand-off to prove how tough they are.  Very hopefully get a chance to go back into one of those (as the first comics series confirmed) pre-fabricated bases and scrap ever-increasing levels of imitation supermen, leading up to a chance to show these wanna-be overlords that they can't so much as do the on-the-soapbox thing on the street corner without being hounded out of town on a rail.  Thank you again for the information.

[Tachstar]

"Oh, hey, here's some Council guys for my 'Defeat 40 Council guys' mission. Cool. Wait! What the hell? 5th Column?!? They killed the Council guys! You bastards!"

[Greycat]

On 7/3/2021 at 1:09 AM, Black Talon said:

The reason I'm going into this is because the "Council" seemed, to me, to be simply a generic bad-guy group with no real set of identifying concepts, aside from "We're going to take over the world.  Why?  'Cuz."  If Homecoming has indeed brought back this association of monstrous pseudo-beliefs, I'll be as happy as anyone else to throw the gloves aside and say, "Time to clean house and knock down a few columns."  Although some insight into not just when it happened but why would be kind of nice as well.

 

They were removed in issue 3. Which is also when Kheldians were introduced.

Running through the Kheld story arcs, you'll find Nictus (Arakhn and Requiem) pulling a lot of strings, even before the split. (Arakhn and the Center were leading things - there's 1-2 Kheld arcs where you see messages between them,) and Arakhn inducted Requiem into the Path of the Dark.)

 

Plus in... I think it's one of the Ouro arcs, I'm drawing a blank - there's a bit about the 5th going underground and waiting to emerge again, as I recall.

 

So... basic power grab, difference in goals, that sort of thing.

[ZorkNemesis]

5 hours ago, Greycat said:

Plus in... I think it's one of the Ouro arcs, I'm drawing a blank - there's a bit about the 5th going underground and waiting to emerge again, as I recall.

 

The Pilgrim, Ouroboros Initiation.  Mender Lazarus's mission during that arc has you recovering data from a 5th Column outpost where the goons are talking about becoming sleeper agents within the Council before the Column is absorbed.  This was the first time the Column had actually appeared since their removal, aside from the Oberst gladiator added as a bonus for having multiple anniversary badges.  They wouldn't appear again until Cimerora and the Imperious Task Force.

 

That mission also referenced a long-standing bug where occasionally NPC models failed to load correctly and would instead load the very first model in the list, which happened to be a 5th Column Mek Man.  "The robots are cloaked in a hard light hologram" indeed.

[Black Talon]

Greycat, my thanks.  Whatever the behind-the-curtains in-story story of the 5th Column/Council split, it's really nothing more than, at best, a matter of passing interest for me.  My friends and relatives and I - Back In The Day - would discuss how the Devs' possible rationale for switching things around was political correctness; I'd argue that, although, yes, the 5th Column does use a number of Germanic titles and military references, this is nothing more than a hold-over from their wanna-be-improved-Nazis image; the group was, is, and always will be indentifiably American, and clearly white-supremacist on top of that.  I don't recall seeing a single African American, Asian American, Indigenous or any other non-Western Caucasian group represented in their membership in the eight-plus years I was playing the game.

 

Again, I felt the 5th Column were pretty much a perfect in-game villain group; absolutely despicable, laughable in their over-the-top Nazi-inspired supremacist tactics, and so up-front in their approach that they couldn't help but be self-declared bad guys.  Your point about "the 5th going underground and waiting to emerge again", strikes me as a bit out of character for them - there's no way they could hold themselves back from declaring publicly, "We shall conquer all!" unless they'd been reduced to a point where toilet paper spitballs shot out of a straw was about the best weaponry they could put their hands on.  Something the Devs at the time grabbed on to as an, "Eh, good enough," explanation as to how things turned out the way they did, I would suppose.

 

In any event, I realize that this is essentially a discussion in a vacuum; there's absolutely nothing I can do, as a player, to influence in-game events aside from passing an argument's thesis on to the Homecoming team.  Otherwise, I'm just darned happy being able to put My Boys up against fictional individuals that we're never going to be sitting down with, a table between us, and discuss how we might reach a negotiated truce.  The 5th Column has their make-believe hearts set on the conviction that sheer strength and conflict determines who rules the world - fine, I'll be more than happy to be one of those that proves that they're never getting anything worse than a nosebleed from us as we slam their butts into a prison cell.  Don't bend over for the soap, guys...

[Greycat]

5 hours ago, Black Talon said:

Greycat, my thanks.  Whatever the behind-the-curtains in-story story of the 5th Column/Council split, it's really nothing more than, at best, a matter of passing interest for me.  My friends and relatives and I - Back In The Day - would discuss how the Devs' possible rationale for switching things around was political correctness; I'd argue that, although, yes, the 5th Column does use a number of Germanic titles and military references, this is nothing more than a hold-over from their wanna-be-improved-Nazis image; the group was, is, and always will be indentifiably American, and clearly white-supremacist on top of that.  I don't recall seeing a single African American, Asian American, Indigenous or any other non-Western Caucasian group represented in their membership in the eight-plus years I was playing the game.

 

 

(Bit of in-game and IRL history incoming....)

 

As I'm recalling, technically they're an *Italian* group. Not American in origin, though obviously they're using American recruits now and would have been for half a century plus, given their role in WWII in-game. And Italy makes sense. Birthplace of fascism (the fasces being an Italian symbol, a bundle of rods with an axe blade which was a symbol of power and authority, and Mussolini being an inspiration for other Fascist movements - Mussolini's "fasces" (at that time more a group or movement, and not the only one referred to as a fasces) being formed... eh, during or just after WWI. Reasonably sure I recall it as pre-1920, with the actual Fascist party forming afterward (20s.)

Whether this is to avoid the "They're nazis" bit or not... *shrug.* As I'll mention once in a while in game, nazis are fascists, but not all fascists are Nazis. All good for face-punching in game, though. So they do fit *that* role in game perfectly. :)

And yes, they'd be... as much as this term causes cringing... "racially pure." Fascists are far-right, typically anti-"liberal democracy," pro single strong leader, anti-Marxist and often focus on (among other things) a 'master race.' I also wouldn't expect to see female members, as they *tend* to lean towards "men doing manly things, women doing womenly things - typically at the home, to support them." Doesn't mean there won't be women *agreeing* and supporting this, but you're not usually going to see them fighting.

(As an aide, Arachnos also started out as an Italian organization. I don't recall off the top of my head if they had any ties to the 5th column organization or not. I don't believe so. Just that Recluse took over from the Weaver. I rather expect more mob-boss style.)   

Oh. Also, as far as "going underground," well - that *is* what a Fifth Column is. A hidden group of saboteurs, spies and the like, meant to undermine an organization (or army or nation or whathaveyou.) So... yeah, makes sense. It's actually odd for them to be *visible,* given the name - then again, Malta's a super-secret organization as well, just a rumor, right... except for the thousands of thousands of guys, plus giant stompy robots, that you defeat during the game. One of those things whose premise really works better in PnP than in MMO. :)

Edited July 5, 2021 by Greycat

[DoctorDitko]

IIRC, Cryptic swore up and down that the removal of the 5th Column has anything to do with sales in Germany.

 

Yeah, I didn't buy it back then, either.