Regen Debuff resistance for...Regen

[Battle]

I finished up a Regen Brute and pivoted to a Rad Armor Brute - and my Rad Armor Brute has more regen debuff resistance than my Regen Brute!

This is very wrong.  Regen should get the same levels of regen debuff resistance that SR gets in DDR.  Spread at least 60% around the other skills, and stick a huge chunk in IH.  Don't put any in Revive.

 

This is like going to Chucky's Rib Shack and they Don't Have Ribs. The signature dish is in the name. You should NEVER run out. It doesn't matter how busy it was.

 

[aethereal]

I don't know how I feel about this as a specific thing, for Regen, but I am pretty sure that I don't like a general rule of "you should have near immunity to debuffs in your area of armor strength."

 

Regen has two click heals (EDIT: And MoG!).  Why should it have any more regen debuff resistance than, say, Ninjutsu has DDR?  Even if it didn't have those, why should it be thematically the case that "regen always regens," instead of "the way to defeat a regenerator is it bring attacks that are hard to regen?"

 

Defense debuffs are ubiquitous, and regen debuffs aren't. The parallel with SR shouldn't be taken as canonical.

 

Regen clearly needs some buff, but I don't see much sign that this is it.

Edited August 15, 2021 by aethereal

[Outrider_01]

/jranger to save the cosmos

 

If you buff Regen, that's a nerf.

 

If you nerf Regen, that's a buff.

 

If one is done more than the other, it will destroy the universe.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Yeah have to say I dont like the idea of all tanker/scrapper type survival sets having built in immunity to being debuffed. SR is a special case because its pure defense, and when defense fails due to a debuff spiral its a certain death sentence with no real time to recover. I myself did not exactly like that fix and as I see SR as the "Flash" defense set, I felt it should of actually had a passive regen system that would actually at its full power rival Regen itself, but then again I also felt regen should have had a passive that worked a lot like a brutes fury bar before we got brutes, and still think regen itself should have a more I am beat up meaner I get passive aspect to it. I think that is where I differ with a lot of other regen users, I find it just about right sustain wise, I just think it doesnt do anything else but heal enough, and a lot of other sets do things to buff damage in some way while offering equal if not better survival power.

[SeraphimKensai]

Having played 3 Regen scrappers, 1 Regen brute, and 1 Regen sentinel over the years, yes. I completely agree that Regen should be the best powerset in the game at regenerating health. As the game exists now, Willpower is better at regeneration then Regen because it's a layered defense and helps minimize incoming damage while it regens.

 

Giving Regen toons a high level of Regen Debuff Resistance only makes sense as it let's them do their job. I find it harder to argue against Regen Debuff Resistance then adding absorb to regeneration abilities (but I even think that could have a legitimate place to a degree).

[Koopak]

I don't have a strong opinion on this, though some more -regen debuff resist would be good, it really wont matter. -regen is uncommon, and when it does exist its either small enough that the current ~25% resist is fine, or so big that even ~90% resist wouldn't actually matter.

Regen, when everything is properly handled, is VERY strong, comperable to some of the top performing sets, the issues are its vulnerability windows, which can be closes with pool powers, epic powers, and recharge. If Regen needs anything its something to offset the dps loss from using click powers, and maybe some debuff resist, namely -recharge or and -def

and before anyone jumps on the "regen shouldn't have -def resist" wagon let me point out that Regen struggles to hit defense caps, and defense by its very nature protects against everything. Defense cascades are 70% of my deaths on my Regen characters, and maybe 20% are -recharge, the rest are -end, -regen, and misplays like pulling to many mobs or mis timing powers.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Koopak

[Razor Cure]

On 8/15/2021 at 9:59 AM, aethereal said:

pretty sure that I don't like a general rule of "you should have near immunity to debuffs in your area of armor strength."

Elec armour says HI to end draid. Fire arm says HI to fire damage. Sr says Hi to def debuffs.

And those are sets that are seen as very good.

The fact a set named Regen gets utterly stomped BY -regen (when other sets have protection from it) makes zero sense.

[aethereal]

Just now, Razor Cure said:

Elec armour says HI to end draid. Fire arm says HI to fire damage. Sr says Hi to def debuffs.

And those are sets that are seen as very good.

The fact a set named Regen gets utterly stomped BY -regen (when other sets have protection from it) makes zero sense.

 

1.  People put waaaaaaaaaay too much weight on the name of the set.  Regeneration (the set) has heals, +hp, defense, a tiny bit of resistance, and recovery as well as regeneration (the attribute), and that's fine.

 

2.  Electric and Fiery Aura aren't good analogies here.  SR is a decent analogy, but:

 

a.  SR has fewer tools in its mitigation toolkit than Regeneration.  If you are significantly defense debuffed in SR, all you have is your scaling resistance.  Regen has two click heals and Moment of Glory if its regen gets debuffed.  A better analogy for Regen than SR are the other defense-oriented sets, like Energy Aura, Shield, or Ninjutsu, which have some DDR but not near-immunity to debuffs, in return for some heals and resistances.

 

b.  Defense debuffs are massively more common than regeneration debuffs, if SR didn't have high DDR it would be crippled not against an occasional troublesome foe, but against many common enemy groups in their entirety, including fuckin' Council.

 

c.  Defense debuffing may be higher impact than regen debuffing, with the rapid increasing/decreasing rewards curve of defense near softcap (I'm not sure about this: I don't know how regen debuffing works, is it multiplicative?)

 

d.  Even if points a-c weren't true, there's nothing that says that sets need to be analogous like this.  It's okay for Regen to be weak to something relatively uncommon like regen debuffs.  Sets have weaknesses.

 

3.  Regeneration needs a lot more than regen debuff resistance to be a good set, and any changes to regen should be focused on making it an actually good set, not in plugging a hole that's not that impactful.

 

It's entirely possible that Regen should get a bit more regen debuff resistance.  Should it get 90% RDR because SR gets 90% DDR?  I don't think so.

[Razor Cure]

2 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Electric and Fiery Aura aren't good analogies here

Why? Elec is basically immun to end debuffs.

 

3 minutes ago, aethereal said:

SR has fewer tools in its mitigation toolkit than Regeneration

True. BUT the only tools SR actually needs is Def and Def debuff resist..thats ALL it takes to make the set awesome. As you say, regen has way more tools...and isnt awesome at all.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Razor Cure said:

Why? Elec is basically immun to end debuffs.

 

Because end debuffs aren't a debuff to the primary mitigation technique of Electric, which is resistance.

 

1 hour ago, Razor Cure said:

True. BUT the only tools SR actually needs is Def and Def debuff resist..thats ALL it takes to make the set awesome. As you say, regen has way more tools...and isnt awesome at all.

 

I'm not arguing against buffs to Regen.  I just don't think that RDR is the right kind of buff.

[Razor Cure]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

I'm not arguing against buffs to Regen.  I just don't think that RDR is the right kind of buff.

Fair point. No idea how to 'fix' it either. But RDR cant hurt, and its arguably something Regen should have some (if not a shit ton) of.

[JayboH]

Slow and recharge debuff resist would also be ideal, no?

[SeraphimKensai]

13 hours ago, Koopak said:

I don't have a strong opinion on this, though some more -regen debuff resist would be good, it really wont matter. -regen is uncommon, and when it does exist its either small enough that the current ~25% resist is fine, or so big that even ~90% resist wouldn't actually matter.

 

Regen Debuffs are not small by any means, here's a few actual examples pulled from the lastest version of Mids Reborn, first numbers are PVE and 2nd numbers are PVP. I've used Defender Modifiers for the following:

 

Radiation Emission

• Lingering Radiation -500% and -865%.
• EM Pulse -1000% and -1297.5%.

Cold Domination

• Benumb -500% and -865%.

Dark Miasma

• Twilight Grasp -50% and -497.5%
• Howling Twilight -500% and -3000%

Kinetics

• Transfusion -50% and -497.4%.

Nature

• Spore Cloud -150% and -86.5%

Poison

• Envenom -50% and -497.4% *Envenom's Splash Debuff values: -25% and -248.7%

Thermal

• Heat Exhaustion -500% and -865%

Time Manipulation

• Time Crawl  -100% and -173%
• Time Stop -50% and -400%

Traps

• Poison Trap -1000% and -798%

Trick Arrow

• EMP Arrow - 500% and -648.8%

 

-Secondary-

 

Beam Rifle

• Disintegrate from Beam Rifle on a Defender causes -150% and -259.5%. 

 

 

 

So as you can see these values are pretty crazy when used against a Regen toon, as several of them can completely shut down a regen toon's ability to regen by themselves. Adding Regen Debuff Ressitance to Regeneration toons is something that could be very beneficial for them. One thing to take into consideration, a lot of Regen's powers are click based, so this list doesn't take into account recharge debuffs which there are numerous powers that cause that effect, which reduces one's ability to recharge their abilities they use to regen their health. That is why back in the glory days of PvP we used to roll up Rad/Psi Defenders to completely wreck Regen Scrappers and Stalkers.

[arcane]

Some -recharge resistance would seem to be optimal since regen is a great set as long as you keep cycling through your 4 powerful clicks.

[Koopak]

2 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

 

Regen Debuffs are not small by any means, here's a few actual examples pulled from the lastest version of Mids Reborn, first numbers are PVE and 2nd numbers are PVP. I've used Defender Modifiers for the following:

 

Radiation Emission

• Lingering Radiation -500% and -865%.
• EM Pulse -1000% and -1297.5%.

Cold Domination

• Benumb -500% and -865%.

Dark Miasma

• Twilight Grasp -50% and -497.5%
• Howling Twilight -500% and -3000%

Kinetics

• Transfusion -50% and -497.4%.

Nature

• Spore Cloud -150% and -86.5%

Poison

• Envenom -50% and -497.4% *Envenom's Splash Debuff values: -25% and -248.7%

Thermal

• Heat Exhaustion -500% and -865%

Time Manipulation

• Time Crawl  -100% and -173%
• Time Stop -50% and -400%

Traps

• Poison Trap -1000% and -798%

Trick Arrow

• EMP Arrow - 500% and -648.8%

 

-Secondary-

 

Beam Rifle

• Disintegrate from Beam Rifle on a Defender causes -150% and -259.5%. 

 

 

 

So as you can see these values are pretty crazy when used against a Regen toon, as several of them can completely shut down a regen toon's ability to regen by themselves. Adding Regen Debuff Ressitance to Regeneration toons is something that could be very beneficial for them. One thing to take into consideration, a lot of Regen's powers are click based, so this list doesn't take into account recharge debuffs which there are numerous powers that cause that effect, which reduces one's ability to recharge their abilities they use to regen their health. That is why back in the glory days of PvP we used to roll up Rad/Psi Defenders to completely wreck Regen Scrappers and Stalkers.

Using player powers is highly inaccurate to what PvE content is like. I didn't make my claim willy nilly. Regeneration has 25.95% RDR, a reasonable build sits between 500% and 600% regeneration before factoring in time limited effects like click powers or your Hybrid. So heres some examples from PvE content and not PvP where its perfectly reasonable for squishy supports to screw over one of the strongest PvP sets.

IDF Battle Orb:

*Mk 1-3: Plasma Blast - 50% -> 37.025%
*Mk3: Plasma Spray - 50% -> 37.025%

IDF Heavy Trooper:

*Plasma Strafe - 50% -> 37.025%
*Focused Burst - 50% -> 37.025%
*All Out Assault - 50% -> 37.025%

IDF ACU:

*Plasma Full Auto - 50% -> 37.025%
*Plasma Rifle Burst - 50% -> 37.025%

IDF WarWalker:

*Particle Burst - 50% -> 37.025%
*Heavy Particle Burst - 50% -> 37.025%
*Charged Shot - 50% -> 37.025%
*Orbital Lance - 50% -> 37.025%

Banished Pantheon Desire Shaman:

*Drain Psyche - 25% -> 18.5152%

Banished Pantheon Ravager:

*Frigid Enervation - 20% -> 14.81%

Malta Herc and Zeus Titans:

*Plasma Blast - Mag 100 (yes its listed that way) -> 1000% -> 740.5%
*Quad Plasma Blast - Mag 100 -> 1000% -> 740.5%

There is a good smattering of the various -regen sources you'll ACTUALLY encounter. As you can see my point holds, as most -regen sources, even stacked 2-3 times, aren't catastrophic. Additionally most of them last less than 10 seconds with most being about 5, and only one or two reaching 20. You'll also notice that one group in particular shows up a lot, the IDF, and that's because -regen is very uncommon.

The Malta Titans are why I said that -regen debuffs are either to small to be matter, or to big to stop. With -1000%, it would actually take the debuff resist cap to get that down to levels where it wasn't crippling. As it is, two Titans can shutdown even Instant Healing levels of regen. And since it was asked, @aethereal regen, like most things in CoX is entirely linear, its their -regen vs your +regen.

In the end there are a handful of uncommon enemies who can seriously hurt your Regen rate, and one or two enemy groups who can weaken it a bit consistently, this isn't an issue. This is so much the case that until a couple patches ago, Brutes didn't have this RDR AT ALL and no one seemed to notice for a loooong time. Regen's issues come from vulnerability windows when click powers are on cool down, and how much worse -def, -recharge, and -end can make that. Namely -recharge, though the raw dps increase from -def can be a problem, and enough -end can make things problematic as well. Really -recharge and -def are the core issues which is why you'll see most strong Regen builds slap several Winter IOs in to get 50-60% -recharge resist, and try to get as much resistance and defense as they can. ( Granting defense is generally more efficient, even against -def )

Edited August 18, 2021 by Koopak

[Razor Cure]

On 8/19/2021 at 12:36 AM, Koopak said:

Brutes didn't have this RDR AT ALL

Maybe because regen was not very common on Brutes, and the larger hp caps help somewhat.

I was just trying to see if Regen actually has any RDR in mids, but it isnt shown. However..i know Rad Armour has both regen and rech defuff resistance. Nearly everyone here is agreeing that regen's problems come from -rech (among others), so give the set some regen and rech resistance would help.

[Sakura Tenshi]

A very VERY common bit of -regen crops up that people forget that can persist from level 1-50 depending on the content you run: Praetorian Clockwork. Are their individual debuffs powerful? No, not really, but the thing is when you encounter Praetorian Clockwork, it's a huge mob and every single one will be showering you in -regen and you can be stuck fighting them from level 1-50 due to how common it is to encounter them in Praetorian related content.

[Koopak]

6 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Maybe because regen was not very common on Brutes, and the larger hp caps help somewhat.

I was just trying to see if Regen actually has any RDR in mids, but it isnt shown. However..i know Rad Armour has both regen and rech defuff resistance. Nearly everyone here is agreeing that regen's problems come from -rech (among others), so give the set some regen and rech resistance would help.

 

Check fast healing, the latest version of mids correctly reflects RDR of 25.95%

 

5 hours ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

A very VERY common bit of -regen crops up that people forget that can persist from level 1-50 depending on the content you run: Praetorian Clockwork. Are their individual debuffs powerful? No, not really, but the thing is when you encounter Praetorian Clockwork, it's a huge mob and every single one will be showering you in -regen and you can be stuck fighting them from level 1-50 due to how common it is to encounter them in Praetorian related content.

 

I mentioned this in my post, but WarWorks, aka Prae Clockwork, generally doesnt stack the debiff beyond 3-4 times, in my experience compared. Not much worse than general IDF.

 

In fact IDF or Seers by themselves tend to be more dangerous due to -def

Edited August 25, 2021 by Koopak