Cant decide Elec/Nin or Savage/Nin or SR - Shield better?

[Erratic1]

On 12/28/2021 at 4:55 AM, Chelsea Rorec said:

I made a EM/EA brute and i have to say EA is utter garbage.

The claims made that EA is easier to soft cap are untrue and it is more of an end hog than Dark armour.

Energy drain DOES NOT help in the slightest.

 

Unless Energy Aura got powers/values utterly out of line with every other implementation on other ATs you are doing something horribly wrong.

[subbacultchas]

On 12/28/2021 at 4:55 AM, Chelsea Rorec said:

I made a EM/EA brute and i have to say EA is utter garbage.

The claims made that EA is easier to soft cap are untrue and it is more of an end hog than Dark armour.

Energy drain DOES NOT help in the slightest.

 

Ninjitsu/SR is less of an end hog than this. Never have i had to eat some many blues just to stay in a fight in my life.

This is the reason Dread has slotted a Panacea,Miracle,Numina in health and it still dosn't help.

Don't trust the word of a person who slots boxing past the initial slot.

 

Straight to the No1 slot of the worst armours i've played.

How? I just can't see this, and don't see it either of the current EA characters I'm running. I'm only running a single perf shifter proc in stamina, but between energy drain and energize I will never need more. Plus a decent amount of end res debuff means not worrying so much about sappers.

Are you judging the set pre-energy drain and energize maybe? I feel like if you have issues with a 15 second or so full end recharge, and perma ~60% end reduction to all powers, you must be dragging an entire map of clocks or freaks behind you.

[subbacultchas]

On 12/16/2021 at 5:21 AM, FUBARczar said:

I would take Stone Armor over EA now-a-days. Some is better all around with better defensive numbers and psi defense and his the HP cap  

 

In most cases I would also take Shield over SR.  In my experience it's sturdier plus you get +DMG.  SR gives more n freedom for creative builds.

 

Never take Ninja on a stalker, pure tin foil armor.

Big time current stan for Stone Armor, I can't lie about it. So I absolutely agree with you here.

But in all the years I've played this, never gave EA a shot before, even on live. So currently in the middle of a romance with the set. 

[Erratic1]

10 minutes ago, subbacultchas said:

Are you judging the set pre-energy drain and energize maybe? I feel like if you have issues with a 15 second or so full end recharge, and perma ~60% end reduction to all powers, you must be dragging an entire map of clocks or freaks behind you.

 

And you do not even need to get to perma-Energize, just close enough that combined with Energy Drain you never run out of endurance. I pull that routine on my Elec/Rad tanker (Electrical Armor is the resistance mirror set to Energy Aura) who has Energize recharging every 40s. 

[DreadShinobi]

On 12/28/2021 at 2:55 AM, Chelsea Rorec said:

I made a EM/EA brute and i have to say EA is utter garbage.

The claims made that EA is easier to soft cap are untrue and it is more of an end hog than Dark armour.

Energy drain DOES NOT help in the slightest.

 

Ninjitsu/SR is less of an end hog than this. Never have i had to eat some many blues just to stay in a fight in my life.

This is the reason Dread has slotted a Panacea,Miracle,Numina in health and it still dosn't help.

Don't trust the word of a person who slots boxing past the initial slot.

 

Straight to the No1 slot of the worst armours i've played.

 

Haha, oh wow.

[Without_Pause]

On 9/25/2021 at 5:42 PM, Chelsea Rorec said:

Just from reading this there are some people who don't understand certain sets so call them rubbish or under powered.

If you don't like them that's fine.

 

On 12/28/2021 at 5:55 AM, Chelsea Rorec said:

I made a EM/EA brute and i have to say EA is utter garbage.

The claims made that EA is easier to soft cap are untrue and it is more of an end hog than Dark armour.

Energy drain DOES NOT help in the slightest.

 

Ninjitsu/SR is less of an end hog than this. Never have i had to eat some many blues just to stay in a fight in my life.

This is the reason Dread has slotted a Panacea,Miracle,Numina in health and it still dosn't help.

Don't trust the word of a person who slots boxing past the initial slot.

 

Straight to the No1 slot of the worst armours i've played.

 

Oh, do tell how you came to this conclusion since you seem to understand both sets and are willing to call EA rubbish.

 

SR and EA both have three toggles for defenses which each cost 0.13 end and thus 0.39 end overall. SR has no mez toggle and PB costs 10.4 end to click. Both offer +20% recharge. The only way you are using more end on a EA build is if you are using Disrupt, which is highly skippable. I don't have it in my build and have no plans on adding it into a build as I just find the power replaced with something else. This says nothing about Energize or End Drain. To say "Energy drain DOES NOT help in the slightest" is negligence is being kind. "Never have I had to eat some many blues just to stay in a fight in my life." (glares at Shield)

 

FYI, one can skip one of the control toggles from Dark and still use .468 end and that's not even factoring in DR's 33.8 end usage.

 

It is fine to not like a set, but spreading false information which can easily be looked up and countered isn't the fertilizer you think it is. 

 

[DreadShinobi]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Unless Energy Aura got powers/values utterly out of line with every other implementation on other ATs you are doing something horribly wrong.

 

It actually does! 

 

Stalker Kinetic Shield = 16.5% S/L def, 2.63% En def

Scrapper Kinetic Shield = 12.75% S/L def, 1.88% En def

Brute Kinetic Shield = 10.63% S/L def, 1.57% En def

 

Stalker Power Shield = 16.5% E/F/C def, 12.75% Neg def

Scrapper Power Shield = 15% E/F/C def, 10.5% Neg def

Brute Power Shield = 12.5% E/F/C def, 8.75% Neg def

 

Stalker fully saturated Energy Drain = 3.75% def-all except psi

Scrapper fully saturated Energy Drain = 3.75% def-all except psi

Brute fully saturated Energy Drain = 3.15% def-all except psi

 

Stalker Kinetic Dampening (combines Dampening Field+Energy Protection into single power pick) = 7.5% S/L res, 11.25% En res, 9.38% Neg/Tox res

Scrapper Dampening Field + Energy Protection (2 power picks) = 9.38% S/L res, 16.88 En res, 9.38% Neg/Tox res

Brute Dampening Field + Energy Protection (2 power picks) = 7.04% S/L res, 12.67% En res, 7.04% Neg/Tox res

 

Stalker Hide = 1.88% def-all except psi

Scrapper Energy Cloak = 3.75% def-all

Brute Energy Cloak = 3.13% def-all

 

Stalker Energize = 59.6% endurance discount

Scrapper Energize = 59.6% endurance discount

Brute Energize = 47.68% endurance discount

 

There are other differences as well, including regen value based on archetype base hp, there are differences in defense debuff resistances, overload is also weaker on brutes, and stalker access to disrupt, which is usually skipped but can be useful to a primary that has stuns like MA, EM, KM, RM where disrupt can allow your mag 3 stun attacks to affect bosses while also stunning all the minions.

 

The differences here are why I am very skeptical about the potential/eventual port of energy aura to tankers, because we do not know what version of energy aura would be ported. The base values on Kinetic Shield and Power Shield are extremely high for Stalkers - 16.5%, which I detailed in the second post of this thread. For comparison to Tankers, Shield's Deflection/Battle Agility are 15%, and Ice Armor's Frozen Armor and Glacial Armor are 17%. Stalkers basically got tanker level treatment in their energy aura base values and it is a large part in how energy aura has found itself being an S tier set for Stalkers. If Energy Aura was ported to tankers what do you think the base values would be?

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, DreadShinobi said:

It actually does! 

 

Does not look like it to me. It gets better values on Kinetic Shield and Power Shield, equivalent to Scrapper and better than Brute on Energy Drain, comparable to Brute and behind Scrapper on Kinetic Dampening.

 

And the complaint was about Endurance costs, which do not look to be any different.

[DreadShinobi]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Does not look like it to me. It gets better values on Kinetic Shield and Power Shield, equivalent to Scrapper and better than Brute on Energy Drain, comparable to Brute and behind Scrapper on Kinetic Dampening.

 

And the complaint was about Endurance costs, which do not look to be any different.

 

Keep in mind those are base values and the gap widens significantly when they are enhanced. Having all your stats coming from less powers also means that heavily enhancing those powers is more slot effective than needing to slot up multiple powers to get the same benefit.

 

Also endurance:

Stalker Energize = 59.6% endurance discount

Scrapper Energize = 59.6% endurance discount

Brute Energize = 47.68% endurance discount

 

Also Brute endurance, since chelsea posted about Brute energy aura in a stalker thread, is that Energy Aura is one of those brute sets that doesn't have a damage aura, and brutes just get so much mileage out of having a fury boosted damage aura, which is one of the most endurance friendly ways to dispatch critters, especially in lower level content.

[subbacultchas]

I love it on stalker and its fine on brute so far. But having a little buyers remorse for not picking stone instead for the brute. Mid 30s and the lack of damage aura and HP cap is noticeable. But ill stick it out since ive already got stone scrapper and tank.

[DarknessEternal]

Where's the offense in Incandescence?  Ageless has recharge.

[Erratic1]

5 hours ago, subbacultchas said:

I love it on stalker and its fine on brute so far. But having a little buyers remorse for not picking stone instead for the brute. Mid 30s and the lack of damage aura and HP cap is noticeable. But ill stick it out since ive already got stone scrapper and tank.

 

EA does not have a damage aura but it does have +Recharge which does buff damage throughput since attacks cycle faster.

[DarknessEternal]

10 hours ago, subbacultchas said:

I love it on stalker and its fine on brute so far. But having a little buyers remorse for not picking stone instead for the brute. Mid 30s and the lack of damage aura and HP cap is noticeable. But ill stick it out since ive already got stone scrapper and tank.

You notice damage auras?

[subbacultchas]

24 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

You notice damage auras?

Last tick on enemies at times. Especially with groups of them, yeah. In the case of Rad Melee's Irradiate Ground, it can be a damned fine proc machine.

Edited December 30, 2021 by subbacultchas
grammar

[Erratic1]

23 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

You notice damage auras?

 

Handy for knowing when Master Illusionists are solid enough to punch. 

 

My Elec/Rad Tanker has two auras and they do add up to something noticeable. Proc'ing them out is my next goal.

[DreadShinobi]

10 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

Where's the offense in Incandescence?  Ageless has recharge.

 

There is no higher dps increase than instantly summoning your entire team directly on top of the mission objective. There is nothing that can replicate the power and speed of incan.

[DarknessEternal]

1 hour ago, DreadShinobi said:

 

There is no higher dps increase than instantly summoning your entire team directly on top of the mission objective. There is nothing that can replicate the power and speed of incan.

There's nothing instant about it.  You have to walk there, so can they.  Everyone has stealth.

[Redletter]

5 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

Everyone has stealth.

Surely you mean "Everyone *can CHOOSE to take stealth IF they WANT to", yeah?

[Without_Pause]

6 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

You notice damage auras?

Try one or two on a Brute. You can lean all the more on procs as Fury helps with damage by default. My Rad/bio is a death machine of orange numbers.

[Chelsea Rorec]

I did the WST this week and then helped a friend do all the TF's right across the range to get TFC.

In each TF i was constantly using blues and +recovery temps just to stay up.

Posi was the worst and my insp tray was just all blues and my def with just the EA shields was in the 30% range.

Yin was just a nightmare, shields kept dropping constantly.

 

No fighting pool just EM/EA with CJ,hasten.

3 slot stamina and pancea/miracle in health.

It's just trash.

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 9/19/2021 at 1:14 AM, DreadShinobi said:

and it has access to some of the most powerful endurance sustain abilities in the game, which Nin, SR, and SD have zero endurance management tools. 

 

Point of order! All of the T9s in Nin, SR and SD provide +recovery! (Don't take Elude and Kuji-In Retsu, people. Bad juju there.)

 

Also... didn't know until just now that stalker Nin doesn't get Seishinteki Kyoyo. Shows how much I look at stalkers in Mids.

[Erratic1]

29 minutes ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

I did the WST this week and then helped a friend do all the TF's right across the range to get TFC.

In each TF i was constantly using blues and +recovery temps just to stay up.

Posi was the worst and my insp tray was just all blues and my def with just the EA shields was in the 30% range.

Yin was just a nightmare, shields kept dropping constantly.

 

No fighting pool just EM/EA with CJ,hasten.

3 slot stamina and pancea/miracle in health.

It's just trash.

 

 

 

Posi? The TF where even assuming the higher level of the two you are capped at level 16 maximum, do not have half your powers just barely one-quarter of your slots?

 

You're judging a powerset by how it plays at level 16? 😲

[Chelsea Rorec]

So i have just done a side by side comparison of EM/SR and EM/EA with just IO's on stalkers.

Up to level 30

 

SR Def 33% melee/ranged

End use 0.43/s

 

EA Def 30% S/L/F/C, 35% NRG, 24% Neg

End use 0.61/s

 

Energy drain only raises the def by 1%

 

Ninjistsu with both toggles up to level 30 is only 0.50 end/s

 

Past lvl 30 EA gains nothing where as SR gains Evasion which is AOE def/Def Debuff pushing AOE def to 38%

End drain on both is 0.61/s

 

Conculsion

EA is an end drain early on with lower defence

SR has higher def and less end drain early game

 

Both gain from the 2 Res/Def IO's but SR is closer to the cap than EA

 

Even past lvl 30 with set IO's added end useage on SR drops to 0.50/s

In no way is that an end hog.

 

Now someone is going to say "omg Energize and energy drain pwnz" yeah.. no not really.

Energy Drain in mids says 2% def no matter how many mobs are around you and is +Endurance only.

And Energize is a heal  with an endurance discount. Even with hasten it's a recharge of 40 seconds.

At some stage you will be reaching for the blue insps or have to heavily slot health like Dread had to.

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Chelsea Rorec

[Haijinx]

On 9/19/2021 at 1:14 AM, DreadShinobi said:

Between Ninjitsu, Super Reflexes, and Shield Defense, I would choose Energy Aura.

 

 

This is an Epic statement, lol 

[Haijinx]

15 minutes ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

So i have just done a side by side comparison of EM/SR and EM/EA with just IO's on stalkers.

Up to level 30

 

SR Def 33% melee/ranged

End use 0.43/s

 

EA Def 30% S/L/F/C, 35% NRG, 24% Neg

End use 0.61/s

 

Energy drain only raises the def by 1%

 

Ninjistsu with both toggles up to level 30 is only 0.50 end/s

 

Past lvl 30 EA gains nothing where as SR gains Evasion which is AOE def/Def Debuff pushing AOE def to 38%

End drain on both is 0.61/s

 

Conculsion

EA is an end drain early on with lower defence

SR has higher def and less end drain early game

 

Both gain from the 2 Res/Def IO's but SR is closer to the cap than EA

 

Even past lvl 30 with set IO's added end useage on SR drops to 0.50/s

In no way is that an end hog.

 

Now someone is going to say "omg Energize and energy drain pwnz" yeah.. no not really.

Energy Drain in mids says 2% def no matter how many mobs are around you and is +Endurance only.

And Energize is a heal  with an endurance discount. Even with hasten it's a recharge of 40 seconds.

At some stage you will be reaching for the blue insps or have to heavily slot health like Dread had to.

 

 

on SO's only Neither of those are all that good.

 

I am not sure Mids models how Energy Drain works correctly though, based on some of the crazy screenshots I have seen.  Personally I sit over 45% all the time now anyway so I never really test it.