Is I e Control broken?

[Diantane]

I’ve got two SO accuracy enhancements in each of my hold powers and I’m still lucky to affect anything above my level. Frostbite almost never hits. Just don’t use it anymore. The only power that works 100% is Ice Slick, because it doesn’t use accuracy. Thought of switching to another type of controller, but maybe they’re all bad.

[Hew]

10 minutes ago, Diantane said:

I’ve got two SO accuracy enhancements in each of my hold powers and I’m still lucky to affect anything above my level. Frostbite almost never hits. Just don’t use it anymore. The only power that works 100% is Ice Slick, because it doesn’t use accuracy. Thought of switching to another type of controller, but maybe they’re all bad.

 

A few problems. Any boss is going to require _two_ applications of a hold to mez. Period. Without hold duration in the power, overlapping sufficient mez status on a boss is dependent on multiple sources of mez, which means recharge, mez duration, and accuracy! 2 accuracy SOs does nothing for you to get overlap of mez duration sufficient to overcome mez protect/resist that bosses have. The same is true to a lesser degree with lts. You can mez them generally with a single application, but the mez doesnt (afaik) last as long as it would on a minion.

 

Soft control like ice slick works well because soft control, its not binary. Load up on things like slows and kd with ice control, and learn to work the soft control aspect of the set. 

[Aurora_Girl]

Also, and I might be wrong here, but a lot of the AoE controls are starting off at a much lower base accuracy than other powers from pretty much any set, that someone unfamiliar with control sets might not know about. I know for a fact Cinders (🔥) is a base 60% acc for +0, compared to 75% for like, Flares. 

 

As @Hew said: acc/recharge/Mez, in that order. Should see a world of difference. 

[Carnifax]

Ice is possibly the Controller set most calling out for a bit of  a revamp. That's not to say it can't be fun but Ice has a lot of "soft control" and lacks the "main AoE hard mez" things like Fire (Flashfire), Plant (Seeds), Gravity (Wormhole) and Dark (Heart of Darkness + Fearsome Stare) have. And that's not mentioning Earth, which has silly amounts of AoE control at the cost of damage (hell it's "Fall down" patch has the side effect of debuffing the enemies ToHit so even if they do get a shot off it's more likely to miss). 

 

Ice you get Ice Patch (which is great but things are going to get shots off), Shiver (AoE slow which everyone rightfully skips) and Arctic (sporadic confuses + Run-aways in a PBAoE aura, so it's risky). In many ways it reminds me of Elec Control where it's not "total aoe lockdown" but more "lots of different soft controls causing chaos". You really want to know how to leverage it while also staying alive. 

 

I think if I was going to pick one Control set for someone new to controllers I'd probably recommend Dark control. Good spread of controls, decent pets (Barkley lives up to his name though), nice secondary effect. No really weird powers. 

 

One way I handle AoE controls when levelling is frankenslotting Acc/[Mez]/Recharge IOs. For AoE holds you can easily slot 3 of these reasonably cheaply pre-sets. Top off with common IOs / SOs. 

 

*Edit, just to add : Don't forget Ices AoE Hold is actually PBAoE. In other words if you're standing a way back and triggering it it's likely you're hitting nothing. I always forget this 1st time when I take my Ice/Traps out for a spin. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Carnifax

[DougGraves]

I love ice because of ice patch being droppable outside of LoS.  But electric gets static field which is similar, so over time I've basically abandoned ice control.

 

I skip shiver.  If it did damage it would be great.  Ice lacks a lot of damage.  But it does not need another soft control.

[srmalloy]

5 hours ago, Hew said:

A few problems. Any boss is going to require _two_ applications of a hold to mez. Period. Without hold duration in the power, overlapping sufficient mez status on a boss is dependent on multiple sources of mez, which means recharge, mez duration, and accuracy!

And the judicious slotting of the Lockdown +2 Mag proc, which can bump your hold enough to grab a boss with one hit when it goes off (you get a 'Tesla Cage' style visual when it does, so you can tell). It's not a guarantee, though, and you'll still want to hit him at least once more to keep him held for more than a few seconds.

[Diantane]

This was my first experience of playing a controller. Hate to think I spent millions of inf on a dud. As you said, there is no to-hit debuffs here. I had to wait until melee players rushes in to take the alpha before casting a hold. If I did it first I would pull all the aggro (a deadly mistake since I had little protection). My job is to make the battle safer for others. If the others have to approach first, I'm not doing my job.  This wasn't what I signed up for. I remember last night that I hated this and quit the team I had led for several hours.

 

Gonna create one of the controllers you mentioned. Thank you!

Edited September 20, 2021 by Diantane

[Carnifax]

For an Ice controller (actually most of them) the AoE Hold is your least important / panic button AoE control. 

 

Dropping Ice Patch is your 1st move. Although letting the meleers eat the alpha is fine as you do. That's what those brainless slabs of gristle are for. 

 

In fact letting them cosy up for a heartbeat or two is almost always better. Let them get all close in and snuggly. THEN AoE Control time. The meleers will probably survive. 

 

Don't fall into the noob trap of spamming your AoE Immob immediately and then wondering why the bad men shot you and why the Willpower Tank is sobbing gently to himself. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Carnifax

[Hew]

14 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

Don't fall into the noob trap of spamming your AoE Immob immediately and then wondering why the bad men shot you and why the Willpower Tank is sobbing gently to himself. 

 

Thats why the tank/brute should have lots of recharge and fold space!

[Carnifax]

3 minutes ago, Hew said:

 

Thats why the tank/brute should have lots of recharge and fold space!

I once killed a Willpower Brute by Folding away his Regen batteries on my Warshade 🙂They kept charging ahead a spawn and Fold Space has a BIG radius. 

 

In fairness I'd no idea they were Willpower.

 

[Without_Pause]

9 hours ago, Diantane said:

As you said, there is no to-hit debuffs here.

What is your secondary? That's where the debuffs come from. If you want to take alpha strike as a controller, you need to know what you are doing and be built for it. That is made easier with IOs and Incarnates. It is also made easier if you are Illusion as PA can take alpha strike. I wouldn't worry so much about the melee types taking alpha strike depending on who they are. They are built for it. A controller is built to control the battle and not necessarily initiate it. Plus, you can learn the art of pulling although controllers tend not to be built for it. 

[Xenosone]

If it waant for streakbreaker i would hit far less than 50% of the time. Thats Xcom, baby!

[Doomguide2005]

On 9/20/2021 at 6:27 AM, Diantane said:

I’ve got two SO accuracy enhancements in each of my hold powers and I’m still lucky to affect anything above my level. Frostbite almost never hits. Just don’t use it anymore. The only power that works 100% is Ice Slick, because it doesn’t use accuracy. Thought of switching to another type of controller, but maybe they’re all bad.

     Random thoughts in no particular order:

1) If you are missing consistently with your Hold(s) especially with 2 Acc SOs and particularly with your single target Hold accuracy is NOT the biggest problem.  Block of Ice has a base accuracy of 1.2 (even the Immobilize at 0.9 is only slightly below normal) and you're then adding another ~0.6 to 0.7 accuracy on top of that.  That should be plenty unless a) your To Hit is getting debuffed or b) you are fighting mobs well over your level or worse c) both are happening.  OR your are hitting but mistaking the lack of a hold taking place due to (as pointed out up thread) not getting sufficient mag on the target to overcome their protection (not resistance).  Resistance to a mez shortens duration but has no effect on magnitude directly, but it does make it harder to stack magnitude to overcome the targets protection.  If it's a resistance issue you should at least briefly see the Hold take effect even if it's there and immediately gone again.  IF you are fighting foes well above your level (i.e. +4 or more) without To Hit buffs that will also cause final hit issues because that will put your base to hit at 39%, lower if you're SK'd and fighting +5's or greater as a result.  Either way if you are actually missing vs ineffectively hitting adding To Hit buffs is more likely to be an effective change (and only powers, such as Tactics, Aim etc., or the Kismet IO will add to your To Hit).

    PS: no one has yet mentioned that 20% of the time Controllers will "Overpower" and gain an additional +1 magnitude to their mez powers.  This will overcome the standard protection of a boss and one shot Hold/Immobilize a boss rank foe.

Whew that got longer than expected. 🙂

2) as @DougGravesmentions you can drop Ice Slick from around a corner, behind a crate or otherwise completely out of LoS.  I often do this on my Earth/* controllers.  But you do have to see with your camera where you are placing the patch's target bullseye in order to place the Ice Slick at that 'out of sight' location.

3) You have no stealth powers/capability in Ice Control.  Arctic Air is not a Steamy Mist or Shadow Fall clone and provides no (-)perception.  Ice Slick takes a relatively long time to animate and to take effect and roots you for the duration of the cast time.  Combine this with its range of 60ft unless you do place it while under cover you are at high risk of getting attacked before you finish placing it.  If you can't take cover either use those inspires or let those who can take aggro do so first.  And again unlike Steamy Mist, etc., there's no +defense or +resistance in Arctic Air.  I'd want some stealth some how in the build.  It won't stop return fire but it will let you gain situational knowledge -> maybe if I move behind the spawn to over there I can limit or eliminate the return fire.

[ZemX]

On 9/20/2021 at 12:18 PM, Carnifax said:

Don't fall into the noob trap of spamming your AoE Immob immediately and then wondering why the bad men shot you and why the Willpower Tank is sobbing gently to himself. 

 

Noob trap?   I'm fairly sure the only controllers/doms I've met who don't spam their AoE immobs are the ones who don't HAVE AoE immobs.

[Doomguide2005]

7 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Noob trap?   I'm fairly sure the only controllers/doms I've met who don't spam their AoE immobs are the ones who don't HAVE AoE immobs.

LOL 😆

But in fairness he said immediately.  I spam mine shortly after doing Stalagmites+Thunderclap usually 😜