Scrapper Moonbeam - Please Fix Hit Timing

[Bill Z Bubba]

Damage lands before projectile hits target. Quite maddening. Thanks much.

-BZB

[Glacier Peak]

41 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Damage lands before projectile hits target. Quite maddening. Thanks much.

-BZB

I'm imagining the travel time from the moon may induce some lag time 😁

[Bill Z Bubba]

29 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I'm imagining the travel time from the moon may induce some lag time 😁

 

You'd think but Noooooooo. Damage occurs as soon as the game thinks you clicked the attack.

[Aurora_Girl]

Butbutbut if you cast, then combat teleport to target, you can RACE THE MOON. 

[battlewraith]

Why is this a problem? And if it is a problem, wouldn't it be a general problem with how powers activate ingame rather than moonbeam specifically?

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 10/9/2021 at 10:17 PM, battlewraith said:

Why is this a problem? And if it is a problem, wouldn't it be a general problem with how powers activate ingame rather than moonbeam specifically?

 

It's a problem because it's ugly and dumb. And, no, powers have specific timings that can be altered. See below where Animation Time before Effect is lower than the Animation Time. Edit: Even that doesn't explain it though as the critter takes damage immediately.

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

It's a problem because it's ugly and dumb. And, no, powers have specific timings that can be altered. See below where Animation Time before Effect is lower than the Animation Time. Edit: Even that doesn't explain it though as the critter takes damage immediately.

 

 

Somebody's notion of ugly and dumb is a pretty subjective criteria upon which to prioritize changing something. And when I asked about it being a general problem, I was alluding to the fact that there are other powers with similar timing issues. You're asking the developer's to specifically address moonbeam because it irritates you--rather than a general request that damage effects of powers more closely match the animation timing of said powers.

 

As long as the power is consistent, I would want them to leave it alone. Functionally it either doesn't matter when the damage hits or the instant damage is a bonus. If I'm trying to spike a target with the maximum amount of damage in the smallest window of time, powers that have wack timing like this may be viable in an attack chain when the expected timing would be undesirable. For example, a long-cast but instant damage power could be used as the last attack in a chain because, at that point, the target is either dead or was able to get away. Waiting for the animation at that point, after the damage, isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if the damage registered with the timing of the animation then that power might be a much less desirable option. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Somebody's notion of ugly and dumb is a pretty subjective criteria upon which to prioritize changing something.

 

If it's broken, it needs fixing. It's broken. Any other powers in the game broken in this way should also, of course, be corrected.

 

Edit: And it seems I should add that gaining advantages from broken code tend to be frowned upon in general.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

If it's broken, it needs fixing. It's broken. Any other powers in the game broken in this way should also, of course, be corrected.

 

Edit: And it seems I should add that gaining advantages from broken code tend to be frowned upon in general.

 

Well, first of all I dusted off one of my scrappers with moonbeam and I'm not seeing this issue. The projectile is firing, it's hitting the target, and then damage numbers are appearing. I don't really see any difference between instant cast and regular snipe either. Now the scrapper I used was largely stripped of enhancements--there were only a couple of damage SOs in there. Perhaps the issue you're having relates to procs firing off?

 

Secondly, it's not broken. Mismatched animation or not, the power works just fine. Your complaint is an aesthetic one. The current Devs can do whatever they like with the game, but if they're going to worry about this being broken AND be at all systematic in their approach, they would need to address not only the powers that hit early but that ones that are delayed as well. A substantial commitment of development time to address somebody's gripe with their snipe animation, which is probably occurring while they're soloing a task force on a scrapper. I personally frown upon such irony in general.

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

24 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

I don't really see any difference between instant cast and regular snipe either.

 

It's only with insta-snipe. Regular snipe, damage shows up with the hit as expected.

 

Also, yea, yea, standard code rant. I'm not telling the devs how to prioritize their fixes. I'm asking them to get it on the backlog and if the powers team already have corrections like this in the pipeline, then they have another task to add to the list.

[Bill Z Bubba]

27 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

A substantial commitment of development time to address somebody's gripe with their snipe animation, which is probably occurring while they're soloing a task force on a scrapper.

 

Ummm, no. This happens while solo or teamed, in radio missions or TFs. It happens 100% of the time with insta-snipe. No need to try to downplay the actual broken code by blaming it on me "doing things I'm not supposed to be doing" while trying to get the fix stopped because you enjoy utilizing broken powers for undue advantages.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Ummm, no. This happens while solo or teamed, in radio missions or TFs. It happens 100% of the time with insta-snipe. No need to try to downplay the actual broken code by blaming it on me "doing things I'm not supposed to be doing" while trying to get the fix stopped because you enjoy utilizing broken powers for undue advantages.

 

I tested insta-snipe. After reading your message, I logged on and tested it again. Same result. It works the same as the snipe--the projectile is cast, it hits the target, and then the damage occurs. Again, maybe the issue is something that happens due to an interaction with procs, ATOs, or something. When I'm sniping things on my unenhanced scrapper, I'm not experiencing this issue at all.

 

I didn't mean to imply you only experienced this on TFs. I'm just pointing out how you're complaining about what you see as a broken power in what is a generally broken game--something that you enjoy because you can legitimately do broken things like soloing content meant for teams. 

 

I don't enjoy utilizing broken powers for undue advantages. In pve, my only concern about moonbeam would be getting it to fire off before the rest of the team nukes everything into oblivion. In pvp, melee in general and scrappers in particular are subpar in group encounters. The soul pool is generally the preferred set to take for some ranged damage. If what you're saying about moonbeam is correct, then scrappers can get one ranged instant-damage power that is on a par with what other ATs can have in their primaries or secondaries.  Scrappers and stalkers are still not going to be that competitive but maybe viable in a more casual setting. Your "fix" would make all melee builds based on this pool marginally worse. And what would be gained? Bill would have the satisfaction of seeing the orange numbers match the blob of smoke hitting the target.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

13 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

I'm just pointing out how you're complaining about what you see as a broken power in what is a generally broken game--something that you enjoy because you can legitimately do broken things like soloing content meant for teams. 

 

Broken games become less broken when broken code is corrected. PvPers whining about broken powers being corrected are not a concern of mine. As you say, wanna PvP? Don't use builds not suited for this game's PvP.

The bug that needs fixing has been logged in the bugs forum as requested by the devs. The bug is repeatable and constant in builds people actually use. Are we done now?

[TheZag]

I bet that time before effect had its 1 deleted somewhere along the way.  There might be something buried down in its actual code for why its instantly doing damage though.

[arcane]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

somebody's gripe with their snipe animation, which is probably occurring while they're soloing a task force on a scrapper. I personally frown upon such irony in general.

 

 

Why is this relevant?

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Why is this relevant?

Because I think it's relevant to look at his complaint in light of the big picture. He initially complained that he wanted this power fixed because it was "ugly and dumb". I guess he realized his personal preferences weren't gonna cut it so he pivoted to it being broken (which it isn't). The point is that the question of whether of not something is broken is often largely subjective. This was initially a team game with ATs that were intended to complement each other. The fact that individuals can solo content that was intended for teams is a break with that design philosophy. This break has ramifications for overall game balance but he obviously is fine with that because it suits his interests.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Broken games become less broken when broken code is corrected. PvPers whining about broken powers being corrected are not a concern of mine. As you say, wanna PvP? Don't use builds not suited for this game's PvP.

The bug that needs fixing has been logged in the bugs forum as requested by the devs. The bug is repeatable and constant in builds people actually use. Are we done now?

 

OR...you could simply stop using moonbeam if you think it's dumb and ugly. The only one whining here is you. You want the utility of a power affected because you don't like how it looks and you've got zero empathy for other players may be affected. 

 

That aside, are we done now? No. You're filing a bug report but you're ignoring the fact that this bug doesn't occur on my unenhanced character. What does that tell you? To me it suggests that the power is not bugged in general. It may be a general effect of certain enhancements or how certain enhancements interact with that particular snipe. 

 

"The bug is repeatable and constant in builds people actually use."

 

Which involves what slotting of moonbeam? 

[arcane]

This is a pretty embarrassingly bad look to a random passerby, battlewraith.

[PeregrineFalcon]

20 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

OR...you could simply stop using moonbeam if you think it's dumb and ugly.

OR... you could simply stop abusing exploits in PvP.

 

 

Yes, using and relying on a power which is obviously bugged, not reporting it (and then coming the forum and... shall we say... shading the truth a bit in order to discourage people from reporting it as a bug), is abusing an exploit.

[battlewraith]

58 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

OR... you could simply stop abusing exploits in PvP.

 

 

Yes, using and relying on a power which is obviously bugged, not reporting it (and then coming the forum and... shall we say... shading the truth a bit in order to discourage people from reporting it as a bug), is abusing an exploit.

 

Except these are not exploits or bugs. This is simply how these powers work and have worked for years, both in pvp and pve. And you are stumbling on to the subject now. Here is a breakdown that is from the stickied pvp resources section that lists some commonly used powers (moonbeam isn't even on the list):

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18cNntfcyoaC9DUVS9B-4XYS6ogDRtT44H2o4GGTf4mM/edit#gid=0

 

Cast time, projectile speed, root time all factor in to why a power is preferable in a pvp context. Fractions of a second in timing matter when chasing someone down who is moving fast, about to phase, etc. The use of these powers still entails animation time before another power can be cast, rooting, etc. But by all means, ride your high horse to the nearest dev and ask them if the use of these powers is an exploit. That would at least involve some effort to actually become informed rather than slandering someone else's motives purely out of your own ignorance and bias.

 

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

This is a pretty embarrassingly bad look to a random passerby, battlewraith.

 

I'm sorry random passerby, but I think it speaks more to a lack of shared common experience. 

 

When I read about this bug, I was initially surprised because I never noticed it myself. I was actually intrigued because, if this is true it would be a very small plus in moonbeam's favor.

 

Bill is more or less correct about the state of pvp. The majority of builds do not work. A lot of ATs see very little if any use. If it isn't well suited to pvp, you don't use it. Now picture if PVE were like that. You needed the most optimal of builds in order to even participate. Now picture some sort of tier of build that maybe can function at a sort of ok level. But then some player wants something changed to the detriment of a power because THEY think it's dumb or ugly. That superficial of a reason is going to affect your gameplay. 

 

I did test this power on an unenhanced character. I did not see any issue with it. If Bill coughs up his preferred slotting, I will slot mine and test it again. I don't think it's an issue with the power itself. My purpose here is not to discourage a bug report. I'm making the case that instant cast damage might have value that outweighs someone's aggravation for how the in-combat version of the power looks.

[PeregrineFalcon]

8 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Except these are not exploits or bugs. This is simply how these powers work and have worked for years, both in pvp and pve. And you are stumbling on to the subject now.

Most of the powers in this game that have a travel time to the target inflict their damage on the target roughly around the time that it takes for the projectile to reach the target. This makes it appear to be the intended behavior for powers in general. This makes it appear to be a bug that this power, unlike others, inflicts its damage out of synch with the animation/projectile. Neither your google doc, nor your statements to the contrary, have convinced me otherwise.

 

16 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Cast time, projectile speed, root time all factor in to why a power is preferable in a pvp context. Fractions of a second in timing matter when chasing someone down who is moving fast, about to phase, etc.

Yes, I am aware of this. You see, I am not some n00b who is merely stumbling unaware upon this subject now, as you claimed. I have PvP'd before, both in this game and in others. Reasonable explanations as to why a power is preferable in PvP does not alter whether it's a bug or not.

 

19 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

But by all means, ride your high horse to the nearest dev and ask them if the use of these powers is an exploit. That would at least involve some effort to actually become informed rather than slandering someone else's motives purely out of your own ignorance and bias.

Reporting the events as they honestly appear to me is not "riding your high horse." It's simply reporting the events as they appear to me.

 

Also, you have no idea whatsoever how much effort I've put into becoming informed about PvP in this game or not, whether I like PvP or not, and what my bias' are. You're simply making assumptions about my motivations.

 

Also, it would be libel. Slander is when it's spoken. Libel is when it's written. But what do I know? I'm ignorant and biased, right?

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

No. You're filing a bug report but you're ignoring the fact that this bug doesn't occur on my unenhanced character.

 

I'm not ignoring it. I'm betting you tested nothing and have chosen gaslighting as your preferred mode of forum PvP and since we don't run unenhanced characters around here, it's a damn moot point. But it's easy enough to test and get a video even though it will STILL be meaningless just like your opinion on what a bug is or isn't.

 

28 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

That would at least involve some effort to actually become informed rather than slandering someone else's motives purely out of your own ignorance and bias.

 

Says the pot that entered the thread with such crap from the get go.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

If Bill coughs up his preferred slotting, I will slot mine and test it again.

 

Oh sure, why not? Go for it. Here's the whole damn build.

 

Spoiler

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.6.0
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Mindy Marauder: Level 49 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Energy Melee
Secondary Power Set: Bio Armor
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Energy Punch -- SprScrStr-Rchg/+Crit(A)
Level 1: Hardened Carapace -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(19), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(19), UnbGrd-Max HP%(23), GldArm-3defTpProc(37), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(37)
Level 2: Bone Smasher -- SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprScrStr-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), SprScrStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), TchofDth-Dam%(7)
Level 4: Inexhaustible -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(7), Prv-Absorb%(9), PrfShf-EndMod(9), PrfShf-EndMod/Rchg(11), PrfShf-End%(11)
Level 6: Fly -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 8: Environmental Modification -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(13), LucoftheG-Def(15), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(15), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(37), Rct-ResDam%(39)
Level 10: Adaptation
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 14: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), GssSynFr--Build%(49)
Level 16: Ablative Carapace -- Prv-Heal/Rchg(A), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(17), DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(17)
Level 18: Whirling Hands -- Obl-Acc/Rchg(A), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(40), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Obl-%Dam(48)
Level 20: Evolving Armor -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(21), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(21), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 22: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(25), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(25), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(36)
Level 26: Total Focus -- SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprCrtStr-Dmg/Rchg(27), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), SprCrtStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), SprCrtStr-Rchg/+50% Crit(31)
Level 28: DNA Siphon -- Acc-I(A), DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(31), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(31), Prv-Heal/Rchg(40)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(34), LucoftheG-Def(36), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(36)
Level 32: Energy Transfer -- Hct-Dmg/Rchg(A), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Hct-Acc/Rchg(33), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Hct-Dam%(34), TchofDth-Dam%(34)
Level 35: Genetic Contamination -- Arm-Dmg/Rchg(A), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Arm-Acc/Rchg(45), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Arm-Dam%(46)
Level 38: Parasitic Aura -- Acc-I(A), DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(39), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(39), Prv-Heal/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Moonbeam -- Apc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Apc-Acc/Rchg(42), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Apc-Dam%(43), GldJvl-Dam%(43)
Level 44: Shadow Meld -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(47)
Level 47: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(48), Mrc-Rcvry+(48)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-EndMod/Rchg(46), PrfShf-End%(47)
Level 1: Energy Focus
Level 49: Quick Form
Level 10: Defensive Adaptation
Level 10: Efficient Adaptation
Level 10: Offensive Adaptation
Level 6: Afterburner
------------

 

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

21 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

I'm making the case that instant cast damage might have value that outweighs someone's aggravation for how the in-combat version of the power looks.

 

Also, unless EVERY insta-snipe in the game also lands damage as soon as the power is clicked, then it makes this a functionality bug on TOP of being a graphical bug. 🙂