Loosen up Power Pools a bit

[Troo]

On 12/2/2021 at 4:48 AM, krj12 said:

I'm finding too often that I'm forced to take powers that will not be used, or of marginal use, simply because there is 

no better option.    Or unable to get powers I want due to build constraints.

Examples:

- Having to take kick or boxing to get access to Tough and Weave.

- Being forced to take only one travel power, since there is no room in many builds to allow access to another.     I usually like to have both flight/SS,  since they're both of use in different types of maps.

 

Suggestions:

1.  Allow selection of one more power pool than currently allowed.

2.  Remove the requirement to pick a lower level power to get to the actual needed one in a power pool.

 

Choices & Consequences. I thought these were understood aspects of the game.

 

Example: I made the biggest character I could, and dangit, doors, caves and stuff. (the game isn't broken, that's the result of a choice)

Another example: I made a maximum hit point build but now my recharge is less than desired. (choice = consequence)

 

Note: Min-maxing is the character-building strategy of maximizing a specific desirable ability, skill, or other power of a character and minimizing everything else, seen as undesirable. The result is a character who is excessively powerful in one particular way, but exceedingly weak in others.

 

[arcane]

24 minutes ago, Aeroprism said:

I was about to write a soapbox-tantrum explaining how the Healing pool just sucks anyways but the more I look at it, the more I think I want to try it in a heal-deprived tank build.  Try to go without Tough/Weave for once and have a way to get some HP back.  

 

Well.  Hello, new alt.

 

Edit: Holy Molly activation time STATESMAN.  

 

I might reconsider my soapbox after all.

Aid Self is absolutely no slouch, *especially* with Field Medic taken too.

[Aeroprism]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

Aid Self is absolutely no slouch, *especially* with Field Medic taken too.

 

 

I'm among the least min-max people you'll ever meet, all I really want is to have fun in the game but you still have to admit, that it one HECK of a chain breaking activation time there.

 

Unless you like going HEAL-PBAOE-HEAL-PBAOE-HEAL-PBAOE-HEAL ad nauseam in where you would pretty much be invincible but your missions would take years to complete.

[arcane]

17 minutes ago, Aeroprism said:

 

 

I'm among the least min-max people you'll ever meet, all I really want is to have fun in the game but you still have to admit, that it one HECK of a chain breaking activation time there.

 

Unless you like going HEAL-PBAOE-HEAL-PBAOE-HEAL-PBAOE-HEAL ad nauseam in where you would pretty much be invincible but your missions would take years to complete.

I’m extremely skeptical that’s correct... at the very least the heal kicks in way quicker than that.

 

Anywho, you don’t have to only cast it right in the middle of combat. Run around the corner when you have a heal or endurance emergency. The game is much more tactical than just standing in melee executing a chain, if you try to play it that way. Either way, in game performance has not been bad.

 

If you don’t need the heal enough to take it as is, and don’t see yourself executing any maneuvers more tactical than sitting in melee, then where’s the problem?

Edited December 3, 2021 by arcane

[aethereal]

CoD says about Aid Self:

 

Cast time 4.333 seconds

Interrupt time 1.0 seconds

Animation time 3.333 seconds

Animation time before effect 0.033 seconds

[arcane]

1 minute ago, aethereal said:

CoD says about Aid Self:

 

Cast time 4.333 seconds

Interrupt time 1.0 seconds

Animation time 3.333 seconds

Animation time before effect 0.033 seconds

Fair enough. So the heal is basically instant, but sure, slows down your chain. 
 

And ofc it is always slotted with 1-2 interrupt IO’s.

Edited December 3, 2021 by arcane

[aethereal]

Just now, arcane said:

Fair enough. So the heal is basically instant, but sure, slows down your chain. 

Well, it's after a 1.0 second interrupt time.  So not entirely instant.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, aethereal said:

Well, it's after a 1.0 second interrupt time.  So not entirely instant.

Well under half a second once IO’d tho

[aethereal]

14 minutes ago, arcane said:

Well under half a second once IO’d tho

My understanding -- which may not be correct, it comes from a random forum post (but I glanced at the wiki and it seemed to confirm) -- is that interrupt-time-reduction enhancements do not actually reduce the total window of interrupt time, they just reduce the amount of it which is interruptible.

 

So:  If you have a 1 second interrupt time, no matter what happens, it's 1 second before your power starts playing its activation.  If you have 100% interrupt time reduction, the first 0.5 seconds are actually interruptable (ie, if you move or get hit, the power is canceled) and the rest of it is just, you know...  time.

Edited December 3, 2021 by aethereal

[BurtHutt]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

 

So right now, many builds (particularly ones without many/any defense powers in their primary/secondary) want Hasten + four or five defense powers in their pools -- this allows them to build for softcap defense and also pick up 37.5% global recharge with LotG (and 70% with Hasten).  It's a bit tough right now if your primary/secondary doesn't support you:

 

Fighting gets you one defense power (but it's double-strength, and people generally want Tough as well)

Leaping gets you one defense power (and people like that one a lot, with its low endurance cost and good combat mobility)

Flight gets you two, but only with a three power commitment (and hover doesn't necessarily work with a bunch of builds, and EM doesn't give defense in combat)

Leadership gets you one (and people like tactics as well)

Concealment gets you up to three (one of which affects others), but people maybe don't like them very much

 

So if you regard Speed and Fighting as must-picks, and you want 4 (or 5) total defense powers, then you need to pick up 3 or 4 defense powers in two pools.  This can get fairly tight (people probably WANT to get Leaping and Leadership, but that's only two defense powers).  Being able to dip into Leaping and Concealment to pick up CJ and Stealth, while not being locked out of Leadership/Fighting/Speed (or sub in Flight there for whatever, if the character works well with flight) would result in some power creep.  There are also powers like Rune of Protection which are at least arguably somewhat balanced by not being in a pool that includes any defense powers (and also not being in Speed of course).

 

I get this. Totes.

 

What I was thinking is picking up some random power. Some of the powersets have some very skippable powers. So adding some fun pick would be nice as opposed to taking a t9 power that is not useful.

 

Maybe that would be an option. Instead of your t9, you can reach into a pool power instead. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ...

[wjrasmussen]

2 hours ago, Aeroprism said:

I say we turn Boxing and Kick into travel powers, a bit like you could use rocket launchers to jump higher in Quake.

 

Boxing = You like to pretend you're too cool for brawl yet, you're just a super strength wannabe.  You punch an enemy so ridiculously so ineptly hard that the recoil sends you flying in a random direction.

 

Kick = You thought you could chose this power although you didn't pick Martial Arts as your main?  Well guess what? Kicking correctly is HARD. You miss so badly that you and up completely elsewhere.

 

 

Yup.

 

I think hasten should have some defense because you can react faster.  Also, allow it to then take def enh.

[wjrasmussen]

13 minutes ago, BurtHutt said:

 

I get this. Totes.

 

What I was thinking is picking up some random power. Some of the powersets have some very skippable powers. So adding some fun pick would be nice as opposed to taking a t9 power that is not useful.

 

Maybe that would be an option. Instead of your t9, you can reach into a pool power instead. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ...

Why not have two power choices at T9?

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

I think hasten should have some defense because you can react faster.  Also, allow it to then take def enh.

Respectfully, hell no

[wjrasmussen]

Just now, arcane said:

Respectfully, hell no

I was just kidding so your hell no to me just kidding about it means you are serious about wanting my suggestion.....

[Aeroprism]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I’m extremely skeptical that’s correct... at the very least the heal kicks in way quicker than that.

 

Anywho, you don’t have to only cast it right in the middle of combat. Run around the corner when you have a heal or endurance emergency. The game is much more tactical than just standing in melee executing a chain, if you try to play it that way. Either way, in game performance has not been bad.

 

If you don’t need the heal enough to take it as is, and don’t see yourself executing any maneuvers more tactical than sitting in melee, then where’s the problem?

 

For me, seeing will be believing: I'm going to roll that tank, try it and see. 

[arcane]

15 minutes ago, Krimson said:

If you take the medicine pool, you need Field Medic active for the self heal to work. Then double click that self heal because for some reason it does not want to trigger sometimes. I have it on my Minf/Poison Controller and I'm probably going to dump it and just slot for more armor. 

The only thing Field Medic does to Aid Self is give it a +end effect. So not sure why you say you ‘need’ it for it to work at all.

[wjrasmussen]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

The only thing Field Medic does to Aid Self is give it a +end effect. So not sure why you say you ‘need’ it for it to work at all.

I am just kidding with you.  Don't take it seriously.

[Aeroprism]

17 minutes ago, arcane said:

The only thing Field Medic does to Aid Self is give it a +end effect. So not sure why you say you ‘need’ it for it to work at all.

 

According to Mids:

• Permanently removes the interrupt time Aid Other  (which can be make-or-break for someone with low defense does that even exist in CoH2021?) 
• Adds Endurance recovery to Aid Self (never a bad thing I guess)
• Grant a powerful boost in the effectiveness of your healing powers (25% more)
• Reduce your resistance to healing debuffs.

But yes, it's three powers to get a heal that, once enhanced, will give you about 65% of your health for a 3.33 (initial) + 4.33 (each cast) seconds cast.  If you want people to stop making cookie-cutter Kick/Tough/weave builds, making this pool more palatable might be a good start.

 

Healing is, by far, CoH's least interesting and least effective form of damage mitigation. Therefore, Aid Other is a joke.  Aid Self might be a fun thing, if it was a bit more accessible, but it's super hard to go there without encouraging even more power-creep and invincible builds.  

 

To be clear: I am absolutely against OP's proposal. Making god-tier builds is already easy enough.  What I'd want, personally, would be for pool powers to be more interesting, not more uber.  But I can 100% admit that I lack the science and knowledge necessary to suggest feasible ways.  I'm just really good at complaining.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Aeroprism

[PeregrineFalcon]

50 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

I think hasten should have some defense because you can react faster.  Also, allow it to then take def enh.

Agreed. In addition to the extra attack per round, Hasten should also give you a bonus to initiative, to hit and armor class.

 

😁

[Akisan]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

Nothing is presently disallowing you or anyone else from picking those pools.

 

And I do pick them.  My main has Injection, Aid Other, and Resuscitate.  But unlike a lot of the other pools (like Fighting), there's a definite sense of giving something up by taking those powers.  And, as @aethereal has mentioned, you're already very tight on pool selections if you want to softcap anything, which makes that feeling even worse. 

 

4 hours ago, Aeroprism said:

Edit: Holy Molly activation time STATESMAN. 

 

Not just any activation time, it's interruptible activation time.  Hope you're at the defense soft-cap if you want to use that in combat...

[arcane]

17 minutes ago, Akisan said:

 

And I do pick them.  My main has Injection, Aid Other, and Resuscitate.  But unlike a lot of the other pools (like Fighting), there's a definite sense of giving something up by taking those powers.  And, as @aethereal has mentioned, you're already very tight on pool selections if you want to softcap anything, which makes that feeling even worse. 

 

 

Not just any activation time, it's interruptible activation time.  Hope you're at the defense soft-cap if you want to use that in combat...

You mention soft cap, so you’re already outside of the realm of thinking about viability and more in the realm of meta min-maxing. Medicine is viable yes. It is not the min-maxer’s friend, no. But it’s literally impossible for all powers to be the min-maxer’s friend by definition. That viewpoint inherently has to relegate some fraction of a game’s stuff to the trash heap, because that’s what min-maxers are.

 

I’m a viability type player, because trying all the pretty powers has inherent value to me. Min-maxing seems boring AF.

Edited December 4, 2021 by arcane

[Aeroprism]

38 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Agreed. In addition to the extra attack per round, Hasten should also give you a bonus to initiative, to hit and armor class.

 

😁

 

You can't just drop a line like that without some form of foreplay beforehand.

 

It's just... wrong.  And hot.

[Akisan]

25 minutes ago, arcane said:

You mention soft cap, so you’re already outside of the realm of thinking about viability and more in the realm of meta min-maxing. Medicine is viable yes. It is not the min-maxer’s friend, no. But it’s literally impossible for all powers to be the min-maxer’s friend by definition. That viewpoint inherently has to relegate some fraction of a game’s stuff to the trash heap, because that’s what min-maxers are

 

I mention it, yes, but my main has *no* interest in getting to it.  I run a blaster at +3x6 with "only" 25% def/all, and stay alive in tough fights by virtue of positioning, /Ice's sustain with its 40% slow & 14% damage debuff, and 2x ST holds to keep the bosses (or key lts.) out of the fight.  Some of my toons though?  Yeah, I want that 59% incarnate softcap, so I can hop on at 3 AM and run a few missions without worrying about mis-timing a power or my target priority being off.  For those builds, yes, off-pool picks can very definitely get them killed.