Prestige sucks! - Or, revamping and creating a useful SG ranking/info system.

[Greycat]

Every once in a while, we get a "Bring back prestige" thread - new or necro'd. The reason tends to boil down to "I want a big number to show how cool my SG is." (There are occasional add ons to it to "earn" things for SGs, but (A) I don't like that idea and (B) we don't need another currency, quite frankly.)

 

The thing is, that number is meaningless. The "Top 100 SGs?" Shows how much prestige was made of converted INF when that was active. And that doesn't tell you a blasted thing. It could be a really active SG. Or it could be someone AFK farming 24/7. You can't tell. And, back in the day (when Prestige was free below... what, 20, 25, and needed for base building,) having SGs just invite people, then kick them out once the prestige earnings dropped (since it'd cut into your INF) wasn't unheard of... and not the sort of behaviour I'd think should be encouraged.

 

SGs themselves are ... mostly fine. I think the ranking system needs to be more fine-grained and to have permissions revisited, useless ones tossed out, etc. I'm not touching that here, though.

 

Final opening note. This would be fairly extensive and revamping several things - touching on SG creation and description as well as ranking. I don't expect this to really be implemented because it *would* be a lot of work. I'd like to see some of it (like some changes in the listings to make them useful,) but overall this is mostly - eh, a thought experiment, a wish list, a "way to give something more useful than the old prestige to rank an SG."

 

First, the SG finder / top 100 window.

 

Yes, the one that cuts off descriptions. And names. This hot mess, if I remember to put the screenshot in.

 

You can resize it, somewhat, vertically. You can't resize it horizontally. It cuts off long SG names, currently just alphabatizes them, and you can't read longish descriptions. (Though you can hover over.)  It is, in short, useless. You get three columns - Name (can be resized slightly,) Prestige (can't be resized,) and Description (can be slightly resized.) You can search by SG name, but only SG name. And that's ... *it.* How entirely useless is that?

 

This window needs love. This window needs options. (And those options are going to tie into SG creation and the description window.)

 

First, make it resizeable. Wider, move the corners, the works.

 

Second, make the columns completley resizeable - and selectable. We're going to have more options here.

 

Third, put some options that the SG can select (and the user can sort by.) The name should be clickable to go to an info page for more information on the searcher side. (Can be disabled by the SG.)

The user can search by, and the SG can enable/disable/designate:
- Visible/Invisible. Obviously not a search option, but if the SG absolutely doesn't want to be listed, they should have the option.
- Open/Closed. Are they taking anyone, or not taking requests to join?
- Flags for RP, PVP, "Setting" (things like, say, parks, city streets - things that aren't really SGs, but places to meet or RP or whatnot.)
- Maybe public/private. (For instance, I wouldn't want my 'alt container' listed, but my RP SG, absolutely.)
- Base passcode! Both listing it, having it visible, and possibly choices to "Visible public/coalition/SG only."
- Contact - Defaults to whoever has the big red star, can be "all leaders" or specific rank (or some sort of flag in the SG) as well.
- Description - expandable, also shows te whole thing on hovering over (current one does this for the description but not name.)
- Remove "top 100 supergroups" and just make it a search window.

The search window

 

For this, sure, you can search by name if you want. But it should also use those flags. Want a SG that PVPs? Select the PVP flag. Searching for a nice out of the way park or a forgotten temple deep in the jungle for a setting? Use the setting flag, and so forth.

 

And then if you want to rank them? Let's make that useful. Now, yes, these still have some issues and/or can be skewed a bit, but I think a lot of the skewing would actually even out a bit... plus having the rest of the information available should help the searcher decide. A lot of this should be activity based.

 

Let's say you want to see actual membership. Some ratio of "Characters / Accounts / On in *time period* (set to,say, week, last 30 days, last 90 days, last 6 mo) - if you want a busy SG, one guy with 30 alts in an SG with two other people who don't show up, well, that's not really "active."

Maybe a "stability" or "growth" ranking - number of characters and/or accounts added or lost over some time period. If you see it stable, it's probably pretty established. Growing - or losing a bunch of people - could influence your decision.

 

How about activities. Time active in PVP zones and arena for how many accounts over time. Does it seem to run WSTs, raids, etc. frequently or not. These would be a little tougher, both to come up with and to track.

 

Why would these be useful or better than prestige?

 

Prestige, as I've said before, counts nothing but INF (or alternative-to-inf.) One guy farming with SG mode on (another issue with prestige...) can make a SG a lot of prestige, but that doesn't tell you how good or bad of a fit the SG is... or even how busy it is. Having some searchable parameters - both simple on off flags (PVP on/off, RP on/off) and seeing some sort of activity indicator (is it PVP because the leader likes to but nobody else does? It wouldn't show that much activity, then) would be far more useful - and if you put your parameters in and tell it to show you the "top 10/20/50/100" that match your parameters...

 

Well, now you have something actually useful to you.

 

Plus we have an SG search window that's actually helpful and descriptive (and a passcode phonebook that doesn't require someone to know to put it on a forum or wiki, AND lets members see it!)

 

Like I said. A lot of work, on a lot of different areas. Much of this would be simple flags, and I'm reasonably sure is information that can be looked up now (so no new tracking systems really needed.) And no, I don't actually expect this to be implemented...

 

Though I'd certainly like a more useful SG search window, if nothing else.

[Akisan]

I can't even remember the last time I even looked at that registry, since it's been mostly useless for a long, long time.  Couple of possible search options for rankings though:

 

For PvP SGs, Prestige could still be used (as-is, or with some tweaks), as a buy-in for SG vs. SG events.  The ranking system could use that value for determining the top PvP groups.

For Settings bases/groups, rankings could instead be based off of something similar to a "like" system - upvote the bases you enjoyed, so they're easier for others to find.

 

But those are minor.  An in-game listing for various SG bases (and passcodes) to go explore would be amazing to have - there's so many hidden gems out there that people have made.

[Excraft]

Hard pass on all of this from me.  Pride and prestige of a supergroup should be coming solely from the satisfaction of its members and the joy/fun they have in playing with their fellow SG mates.  We do not need some arbitrary set of numbers on a screen that people are only going to farm for and do not tell you anything truly important about the group in my opinion.

[Greycat]

4 minutes ago, Excraft said:

Hard pass on all of this from me.  Pride and prestige of a supergroup should be coming solely from the satisfaction of its members and the joy/fun they have in playing with their fellow SG mates.  We do not need some arbitrary set of numbers on a screen that people are only going to farm for and do not tell you anything truly important about the group in my opinion.

 

So, you didn't read it. Good to know.

[Excraft]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

So, you didn't read it. Good to know.

 

I did read it.  It's not something that I personally see as needed, so I'm going to disagree with it.  If that's ok with you of course?

[Greycat]

6 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

I did read it.  It's not something that I personally see as needed, so I'm going to disagree with it.  If that's ok with you of course?

 

No. From your comment, you most certainly did *not* read it anywhere near enough to "disagree" with it. Perhaps you saw the word prestige in the subject and stopped there.

 

If you *had* read it, you'd see at least half of it is dealing with the SG search window and improving it and the way SGs self-describe and self-select, to make looking for and connecting with SGs better.

 

Know how I know you didn't read it?

 

16 minutes ago, Excraft said:

We do not need some arbitrary set of numbers on a screen that people are only going to farm for and do not tell you anything truly important about the group in my opinion.

 

Which is the *old* prestige, which I specifically point out as being useless (and have a history of describing as such.)  While, if you actually DO read past the first word in the title, you'll see a wider array of things for a SG to describe itself as - none of which has to do with "pride in the supergroup" or "numbers on a screen people are only going to farm for."

 

Unless you'd like to describe how people farm for a button that lists the group as, say, an RP focused group?

 

Or farm for showing an SG passcode in the group listing?

 

Or farm for being able to resize the window itself?

 

You'll also note, where I do mention showing activity, the suggestions go for things over time and percentage of the group actually involved in it.

 

So, no. While I don't mind an honest disagreement? Yours is not. Your comment indicates "I saw prestige named, I hate prestige so I'm going to say I disagree." Hint: *I don't like prestige either.* Which you'd be able to tell if you'd read... the second paragraph.

[TheZag]

The SG search window is pretty pointless.  Ive used it twice in a year.  Once when i was fairly new and once when i was trying to remember where i saw that SG search thing.  If there is time to give it a fresh coat of paint then that would be great.

[JasperStone]

I am all for this.

All SG window suggestions are great. I am future thinking, in coming new players would/may use it.

BUT FIRST

Step one- Rename it (it triggers old timers) I am a runner. Every single post in my social media where someone is looking for new headphones there is that person who goes on a rant about how you should not wear headphones etc. That was not the question. The question was.... we got this thing, let's find a way to use it.

 

Step two - Redirect its purpose. Badges are pointless(not my actual belief) and you can be successful in the game without them. They do add small boosts to your character that are nice, however. Why not find a way to use prestige this. 

 

The SG search window does need some loving, old time players may not use (I do not, but do peek in every now and then) - restating that a new player may.

 

SECOND

Read the patch notes. No, read them. Our amazing volunteers did a bunch of stuff that I call "behind the scenes and quality of life" like fixing the music in certain areas ... guess what is on my list. Yup, visit those areas to hear it.

 

The SG window and Prestige(turned off) exist why not find a way to renew and use.

 

THIRD

Almost everything in this game is an option.

So is.

If this is not your cup tea, understood.

 

 

 

[Excraft]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

No. From your comment, you most certainly did *not* read it anywhere near enough to "disagree" with it. Perhaps you saw the word prestige in the subject and stopped there.

 

If you *had* read it, you'd see at least half of it is dealing with the SG search window and improving it and the way SGs self-describe and self-select, to make looking for and connecting with SGs better.

 

Know how I know you didn't read it?

 

 

Which is the *old* prestige, which I specifically point out as being useless (and have a history of describing as such.)  While, if you actually DO read past the first word in the title, you'll see a wider array of things for a SG to describe itself as - none of which has to do with "pride in the supergroup" or "numbers on a screen people are only going to farm for."

 

Unless you'd like to describe how people farm for a button that lists the group as, say, an RP focused group?

 

Or farm for showing an SG passcode in the group listing?

 

Or farm for being able to resize the window itself?

 

You'll also note, where I do mention showing activity, the suggestions go for things over time and percentage of the group actually involved in it.

 

So, no. While I don't mind an honest disagreement? Yours is not. Your comment indicates "I saw prestige named, I hate prestige so I'm going to say I disagree." Hint: *I don't like prestige either.* Which you'd be able to tell if you'd read... the second paragraph.

 

No, you didn't read what I wrote and you're incorrectly assuming what I meant and attacking me because I disagree with you, which to be honest doesn't surprise me on these forums anymore.  Instead of asking for clarification or trying to engage in discussion, you took my disagreement as some personal slight against your idea, assumed what I wrote and then accused me of not reading your post. 

 

You saw the word prestige in my post and ignorantly assumed I meant the old in game prestige system.  I did read your post and I wasn't discussing prestige as in SG currency at all.  I know your suggestion has nothing to do with the old prestige system.  I was addressing some of your suggestions on what you were considering to show measures of activity.  People with several accounts farming or running alts through TFs isn't going to be an accurate measure of activity.  Those kinds of things can be farmed or can be misleading and arbitrary measures of activity.  Also, bigger/more members doesn't always mean better and doesn't necessarily tell you anything other than the group plays a lot or a little. 

 

I also don't think PVP or RP flags are necessary either.  At least to me, it seems like a lot of work on something that in my experience gets little to no use.  The forums here are a much better place to advertise and showcase your SG/VG in my opinion.  Were it up to me - and I personally think this a better suggestion - remove the registrar window entirely.  It doesn't serve much of a purpose and never really has in my experience, even when prestige was a thing.

 

Next time, try engaging in discussion instead of assuming.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Currently, SGs are unranked, right?  What value is there in having them ranked again, even if by your measures?  Is it to decide which one to join?  Or is it for bragging rights?

 

If it's just a different way to rank your standing, I'd rather go back to the old prestige way.  As you say, that's about how much inf you have and that is certainly my core competency. 

 

That said, I'm even happier now with no rankings of note whatsoever.

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

I also don't think PVP or RP flags are necessary either.  At least to me, it seems like a lot of work on something that in my experience gets little to no use.  The forums here are a much better place to advertise and showcase your SG/VG in my opinion.

 It gets "little to no use" because it shows absolutely no information that's *of* any use.

 

And not everyone comes to the forums. Having people completely forget the forums exist is a thing, going from conversations in the help channel, even with a link right on the launcher. Better to have an in-game resource that's *right there* for people to use.

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Currently, SGs are unranked, right?  What value is there in having them ranked again, even if by your measures?  Is it to decide which one to join?  Or is it for bragging rights?

 

If it's just a different way to rank your standing, I'd rather go back to the old prestige way.  As you say, that's about how much inf you have and that is certainly my core competency. 

 

That said, I'm even happier now with no rankings of note whatsoever.

 

Nope. I don't want anything done for "bragging rights." It's one of the primary drawbacks of the prestige system - and that isn't even really about how much INF you have.  I was trying to work out a system where the people doing the searching can pick something (how active, how much is PVP involved if they're into that, etc. as well as just being able to see what the group describes *itself* as better.

 

In my mind, you could have ten different people looking for SGs, putting in what they're looking for, and get multiple different "best match" sort of results.  Someone searches for, say, activity only, they get a ranking (probably not the *most* useful) of groups that have had activity of, say, 30 of the last 30 days, then 29, etc. They select "RP" for RP groups, that list changes, they move that to 60 days, the list probably changes, add "number of accounts" (for instance) and suddenly the groups that just have one or two actual people behind them drop way down, etc... making it an actual search and "custom" ranking of sorts.

[Excraft]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

 It gets "little to no use" because it shows absolutely no information that's *of* any use.

 

And not everyone comes to the forums. Having people completely forget the forums exist is a thing, going from conversations in the help channel, even with a link right on the launcher. Better to have an in-game resource that's *right there* for people to use.

 

What you're suggesting to do doesn't give it any more useful information especially since most of the metrics you landed on are definitely misleading.  Active supergroups who are recruiting are advertising here, in game, on Discord and other social media.  That's reaching a broad audience and those people are much more informative a resource about a particular group than any info screen in game would ever be.  I'd also wager that given how prestige was removed from the game allowing for people to make solo SGs for their alts, these are more prevalent than huge SGs.  I don't have any hard data to back that up, it's just my personal observation so take that with a grain of salt.  

[Glacier Peak]

Eh, not seeing SG UI as broken or worth trying to reinvent. Cool thought experiment though!