What is good dps in CoH?

[Marshal_General]

On 1/13/2022 at 8:02 PM, Snarky said:

Nooooo.  Talking about how much damage a chicken does is off topic.  Unless launched by a trebuchet.  And are we taking into account any pathogens the chicken might be carrying and the long term damage done to the target area?

You can really cluck someone up with a chicken if you know what you are doing. Its all in how you aim the pecker.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Marshal_General

[oldskool]

18 hours ago, Brawlin said:

So 150/200 is the average. 400 is the target for good/great. My original question was what is good dps in CoH, not what is passable.

 

I'll rephrase into mechanics you're more familiar with and that you have stated already. Plus, I play SWTOR so it is relatable to me. 

In SWTOR, parsing 21k is "good" but there is room for improvement when the top end players are pushing 26k+. 

 

Sub 20K in SWTOR; non-NIM raiding just having fun = 130 - 170 (This is effectively playing on single origins)
21k in SWTOR = 170 to 230 in CoH. (This a huge range of build tweaking from early IO investment even to some purples)

26k in SWTOR = 300+ in CoH. (Mostly high quality gear, focus on specifics of the build, practice with attacks per minute)

 

A fully purpled out IO build with plenty of practice behind it, is on par for looking at SWTOR parses of top players with gold augments. 

The DPS range in CoH is vastly larger on HC than it ever was in the live game. Also, you noted before that you're not looking for the best, and yet you're settling on 400 as a baseline. This is equal to top tier elite hardcore raiders in other MMOs. 

In other words, this discussion comes across like someone asking for an Edmund's report on a "good car" then making the final determination that the only good car in existence is the Porsche 911. My point here is this. The Porsche 911 is a top end performance machine with a cost that is prohibitive for the vast majority of the market. Is it something to strive for in your life? Sure. Is it attainable? Potentially. Will most people have one? No. Can you drive from point A to B for less? Absolutely. CoH builds are like cars. You can spend a fortune on high performance, but you don't need to do that if you're only driving to get groceries. 

If you're already touching 400 DPS with your own character, then that is actually amazing in the context of this game. If you're able to hit 230-270, then that is above the average. The latter is also mostly overkill for the majority of the game. 400 DPS is on the extreme side. 

In reality, "average" DPS is *less than* the regeneration rate of an AV*. It is FAR easier to hit slightly above average DPS on DPS characters, but it is a fallacy to assume that most players do hundreds of DPS in this game. A large group of players just like to roleplay or play for fun or whatever. And "dps" as a concept largely doesn't matter here anyway beyond e-peen stroking. Doing hundreds of DPS is most impressive for single targets, but the only enemies that comes close to mattering on is if you are soloing Archvillains or Giant Monsters. Otherwise, the high potential of area damage on an AT like the Blaster smooths out the rest. Furthermore, at some point the majority, or all, of your squad will be leap frogging a Judgment power and wiping enemies repeatedly. 

Hell, there is a really large thread in this forum full of builds that many people adore and almost all of those pull DPS well under the potential of what the kit is capable of. 

 

*Consider that CoH's old dev team wasn't really that great at balancing numbers. Fire Blast, for example, is an outlier set with far more damage packed into it than other sets. Ice Blast also has some outlier scalars that make it excel. There is a massive difference in performance between Fire Blast and almost everything else. Sets like Beam Rifle aren't necessarily high performers because of their base numbers, but the combination of base numbers plus effects. Some effects, like regeneration debuffing and resistance debuffing, are incredibly powerful for what they are.

Edited February 8, 2022 by oldskool
Added stuff. Just trying to explain why setting an expectation of 400 can lead to possible disappoint because DPS in this game is both a huge range of acceptable performance and also generally unnecessary due to the fundamentals of it all.

[ScarySai]

Enough aoe to melt fodder.

 

Enough single target to blow up the few bosses left.

 

(Bonus) Enough single target to solo AVs and higher reliably.

 

(Bonus 2) Able to do most of these things well at lower levels.

 

Lower the difficulty, the easier this standard is to meet.

Edited February 13, 2022 by ScarySai

[Zeraphia]

I think that DPS categories can be acceptable for certain ranges/builds for example (this assumes T4 Degen Core / T4 Alpha):

 

<150 DPS - You are likely running a non-proc (mind) Controller/completely unoptimized damage Tanker/or Z-DPS defender. This is extremely low and would probably feel like a slog in solo play.

150-200 - You are likely running a build that does not focus on damage as a Controller/Corruptor/Defender/etc. and your build pathing probably sacrificed too many procs/opportunities to push it to a better level. 

NOTE: this is acceptable in some circumstances if you bring substantial team impact in the form of team buffing/debuffing (Sonic Blast)

200-250 - You may have completely optimized some lower end DPSes with this damage threshold and this is the damage level you need to be able to kill an AV and solo efficiently. This is the "breakeven" point for most builds to be comfortable but not "hard carry" potential. It's a fine place to be. This is the lower end for Scrappers/Blasters/Stalkers/many Brutes/many Tanks.

250-300 - You probably have optimized most build potentials at this level and you are doing considerable damage. You probably won't be the top DPS on the team, but you'll be the reason a mission goes faster. 

300-400 - At this level, you're doing very well and have likely optimized a few medium-end potential DPSes. This is an excellent spot to be. You will carry with this level of DPS.

400-500 - You're getting into the high end territory now for what the mid-high optimized DPSes do. You will carry the vast amount of teams you join with this DPS.

500 - >600+ - You are playing a meta combination with hard carry potential. This is Fire/Fire Blaster / Energy Melee Scrappers / Street Justice Stalkers levels of damage. Some high end (kind of gimmicky) Storm Summoning builds. A lot of masterminds. This is peak performance. If you're achieving this as a solo DPS carry (Blaster/Scrapper/Stalker) you are at the top of the food chain. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Zeraphia

[Tahliah]

On 2/7/2022 at 9:31 AM, UltraAlt said:

That would have been sweet of you.

Yeah, that was my initial thought because I knew I hadn't insulted you, so I figured I must have responded to the wrong thread or something. It was only after reviewing my actual post and your response that I realized it was not "my bad," but yours.

 

I am sorry that you feel people are jumping on you, but I didn't and wouldn't (I have no idea who you even are, so why would I?).  That said, mistakes happen, and I'm not one to hold a grudge, so we're good in my book.  Now can we be besties? 😛

 

[UltraAlt]

On 2/19/2022 at 11:08 PM, Tahliah said:

Now can we be besties? 😛

 

Only if you can find me in game and team up with me.

Otherwise, we are still just forum acquaintances.

 

But there is a good bet that you have already teamed with me and didn't even know it 🙂

 

Oh, wait.

 

On 2/19/2022 at 11:08 PM, Tahliah said:

It was only after reviewing my actual post and your response that I realized it was not "my bad," but yours.

 

It's a one sided thing. I see.

We win or lose. 

 

Aren't there times when there is wrong on both sides?

 

Friends take the good with the bad or they aren't really friends.

 

Any how I'll still probably end up gaming with you or you with me without either one of us knowing it.

Edited February 21, 2022 by UltraAlt

[Shred Monkey]

On 2/15/2022 at 1:10 PM, Zeraphia said:

I think that DPS categories can be acceptable for certain ranges/builds for example (this assumes T4 Degen Core / T4 Alpha):

 

<150 DPS - You are likely running a non-proc (mind) Controller/completely unoptimized damage Tanker/or Z-DPS defender. This is extremely low and would probably feel like a slog in solo play.

150-200 - You are likely running a build that does not focus on damage as a Controller/Corruptor/Defender/etc. and your build pathing probably sacrificed too many procs/opportunities to push it to a better level. 

NOTE: this is acceptable in some circumstances if you bring substantial team impact in the form of team buffing/debuffing (Sonic Blast)

200-250 - You may have completely optimized some lower end DPSes with this damage threshold and this is the damage level you need to be able to kill an AV and solo efficiently. This is the "breakeven" point for most builds to be comfortable but not "hard carry" potential. It's a fine place to be. This is the lower end for Scrappers/Blasters/Stalkers/many Brutes/many Tanks.

250-300 - You probably have optimized most build potentials at this level and you are doing considerable damage. You probably won't be the top DPS on the team, but you'll be the reason a mission goes faster. 

300-400 - At this level, you're doing very well and have likely optimized a few medium-end potential DPSes. This is an excellent spot to be. You will carry with this level of DPS.

400-500 - You're getting into the high end territory now for what the mid-high optimized DPSes do. You will carry the vast amount of teams you join with this DPS.

500 - >600+ - You are playing a meta combination with hard carry potential. This is Fire/Fire Blaster / Energy Melee Scrappers / Street Justice Stalkers levels of damage. Some high end (kind of gimmicky) Storm Summoning builds. A lot of masterminds. This is peak performance. If you're achieving this as a solo DPS carry (Blaster/Scrapper/Stalker) you are at the top of the food chain. 

 

This looks accurate to me for someone who's min/maxing single target DPS which is what the OP wanted.  Just ignore the added fluff posted about how important single target DPS is or isn't, or how other things are more important.  CoH's greatest strength is that it is a game where it's absolutely fine for you to build and play *your* toon the way *you* want to play.

[Brawlin]

On 2/15/2022 at 1:10 PM, Zeraphia said:

I think that DPS categories can be acceptable for certain ranges/builds for example (this assumes T4 Degen Core / T4 Alpha):

 

<150 DPS - You are likely running a non-proc (mind) Controller/completely unoptimized damage Tanker/or Z-DPS defender. This is extremely low and would probably feel like a slog in solo play.

150-200 - You are likely running a build that does not focus on damage as a Controller/Corruptor/Defender/etc. and your build pathing probably sacrificed too many procs/opportunities to push it to a better level. 

NOTE: this is acceptable in some circumstances if you bring substantial team impact in the form of team buffing/debuffing (Sonic Blast)

200-250 - You may have completely optimized some lower end DPSes with this damage threshold and this is the damage level you need to be able to kill an AV and solo efficiently. This is the "breakeven" point for most builds to be comfortable but not "hard carry" potential. It's a fine place to be. This is the lower end for Scrappers/Blasters/Stalkers/many Brutes/many Tanks.

250-300 - You probably have optimized most build potentials at this level and you are doing considerable damage. You probably won't be the top DPS on the team, but you'll be the reason a mission goes faster. 

300-400 - At this level, you're doing very well and have likely optimized a few medium-end potential DPSes. This is an excellent spot to be. You will carry with this level of DPS.

400-500 - You're getting into the high end territory now for what the mid-high optimized DPSes do. You will carry the vast amount of teams you join with this DPS.

500 - >600+ - You are playing a meta combination with hard carry potential. This is Fire/Fire Blaster / Energy Melee Scrappers / Street Justice Stalkers levels of damage. Some high end (kind of gimmicky) Storm Summoning builds. A lot of masterminds. This is peak performance. If you're achieving this as a solo DPS carry (Blaster/Scrapper/Stalker) you are at the top of the food chain. 

Thanks for the reply! This is the kind of answer I was looking for.

[zenijos10]

Sometimes getting exact numbers is tough or counter productive.  For people who aren’t interested in specific numbers here is a non-scientific way to look at dps as a team member, which ignores any other things you might be doing on the team.  In this game when you join a team you never know what your gonna get, so what follows is relative. You might have a weak build, but be the strongest in the group, or you might have a strong build, but be the weakest link on the team.  Generally I go by how it feels on average over several levels and enemy types depending on my goals or niches.

 

 Dps needs work

I’m attacking, but it doesn’t seem like what I do matters.

 

If I stop attacking there will be no obvious change in speed or team effectiveness.

 

 Dps is good enough

I’m attacking and sometimes I  feel my damage is contributing usefully. I sometimes either see minions and Lts drop by AoE or I often feel like I am obviously a big reason Lts, bosses or tougher go down due to my single target attacks.

If I were to stop attacking, team speed and efficiency would suffer enough to be noticed.

 

 Dps is great

Im obviously a driver for damage.  When I attack, enemies go down as a result.  Either AoE drops the minions and Lts or I’m a boss killer or both!

 

If I stop attacking, then the teams efficiency and speed and possibly survival would obviously suffer.

 

 Dps is 1337

When I attack nothing survives.  There is no hope for the npcs. 
 

If the rest of the team stopped attacking, but I continued there would be no obvious drop in team efficiency or speed, either for AOE, Single Target, or both.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by zenijos10

[tidge]

From my PoV there are basically two categories for seeking MOAR DPS:

1. AV/GM fights
2. How many hits does it take to defeat a single MOB (any class)

As written above, AV/GM will need a certain amount of DPS (in the absence of certain debuffs, purple triangles, blah blah blah fishcakes) to defeat.

 

If the DPS can't be increased to the point that the character requires one fewer attack to defeat the MOB in question, from my perspective I don't sweat marginal differences in DPS.