Founder's Falls Safeguard, Reveal, and Vidiotmaps

[Rudra]

I'm not sure how to flag this because it makes no sense. On the Founder's Falls safeguard, if you run around exploring, the map fills in and matches your position in the safeguard. The map window layout is the same as the safeguard actual map. However, if you use the Reveal power, it pulls up the outdated Vidiotmaps map of the Founder's Falls safeguard. Why would the game have one map for the map window if you just play through and a different map if you use a specific power to show you the whole map on the map window?

 

I know I need to find an updated Vidiotmaps, but if the Vidiotmaps addon is overriding the map window, then... shouldn't it always show the Vidiotmaps map even if I don't use Reveal?

[TheZag]

edit:  ignore this,  it was a guess based off of incorrect information.

 

Probably because if you zone out the map is covered when you come back.  They would need to replace the current map with a new one or it wouldnt be able to make the fog come back when you leave the map.

Edited February 3, 2022 by TheZag

[Rudra]

I don't follow. The map in the map window should not be different just because I use the Reveal power. I already know using the Reveal power only shows the map until you leave, so if you leave the mission without completing it for any reason and re-enter, the map is hidden by fog of war again. However, the map in the map window should still be the same regardless of whether I uncover it by fully exploring it or by using the Reveal power. The game should only be pulling up a single map file for the zone, whether correct version or not.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add last line.

[TheZag]

Usually the first thing i say is do it without mods to make sure its a problem on homecomings end and not with the mod.  And i just gave a possible explination since the game achieves alot of functionality through methods that werent possible with the original code that feel unintuitive.  Like how a league cant actually exist with the original code and they did some janky spaghetti code to make it work. 

 

I went ahead and disabled my map mod and ran the safeguard.  The map is always the wrong one and since it hasnt been revealed and zoomed out yet it just looks like you are being tracked properly.  You can verify this by running along the force field boundary and not seeing the blue line for the edge on the minimap.  The player marker along with the bank marker and the marker for the exit van are correctly spaced for the portion of the map that the player can move around in.  To me it feels like the entire map was enlarged and all the markers along with the boundary were placed in the bottom left 1/4 of the minimap.  So there is a problem but its there from the start and just becomes easier to see once you use reveal.

[AboveTheChemist]

15 hours ago, Rudra said:

the outdated Vidiotmaps map of the Founder's Falls safeguard

 Can you please be more specific about what is outdated with the FF safeguard vidiotmap?

 

The last time I looked into this issue (this past summer), both the stock game map and vidiotmap for the FF safeguard mission were not showing the player's location correctly. Based on what I have been told, this is an issue that dates back to Live. I don't recall hearing that the devs fixed the stock game map so I assume it is still incorrect.

 

If possible, could you please post some screenshots showing your map window with the map cleared prior to using Reveal, and after using Reveal?

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, AboveTheChemist said:

 Can you please be more specific about what is outdated with the FF safeguard vidiotmap?

 

The last time I looked into this issue (this past summer), both the stock game map and vidiotmap for the FF safeguard mission were not showing the player's location correctly. Based on what I have been told, this is an issue that dates back to Live. I don't recall hearing that the devs fixed the stock game map so I assume it is still incorrect.

 

If possible, could you please post some screenshots showing your map window with the map cleared prior to using Reveal, and after using Reveal?

The version I had. The map was not rotated to match the instance's actual layout. (On the new version, there is a fair amount of map that is marked as outside the instanced area that you run around in, and the side mission points are mismarked or missing, but that is not relevant to this post and should be posted on the vidiotmaps thread.) So as I ran around the Founder's Falls safeguard without Reveal, the map layout as it was uncovered matched the instance's layout. Then when I used Reveal, the map was rotated in the wrong way and did not accurately show either where my character was or the bank, mission exit, or PPD station. So as I said, the game should only be pulling one map for the instance, not two different ones depending on what power you use.

[AboveTheChemist]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

The version I had.

Do you happen to know which version that was, or have a file date for that map? I don't see any rotation issues in the older versions I have. I'd like to try to replicate the issue if I can and I'd like to use the same map if possible.

 

Is this a bug that you are able to replicate?

[Rudra]

Uhm... the I24 and beyond one? I finally found an actual update buried in the vidiotmaps thread that corrected the map rotation (even though it has other weirdness going on), so I can't really say what version the map was. Sorry.

 

And yes, I was able to replicate the problem for an entire week before I finally found a rotated vidiotmaps map for the safeguard. (I was not bothering with safeguards until then. Don't like them.) Though both the vidiotmaps map and the other map still don't show the instance accurately, putting the player in a small corner that is mostly marked not reachable as opposed to the bulk of the map that shows as accessible and is not.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to change ! to I in I24.

[AboveTheChemist]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Uhm... the I24 and beyond one? I finally found an actual update buried in the vidiotmaps thread that corrected the map rotation

Can you please link where you found this update? The Founders Fall safeguard vidiotmap has had the correct rotation dating back at least to i23 (prior to shutdown). I can find no record of Blondeshell (the previous vidiotmap caretaker) having updated that map, and I know I have not updated it since I began updating vidiotmaps a little over a year ago. The only map that has changed rotation since then has been the Siren's Call map.

 

The issue you noted with map accuracy is, as I mentioned before, an issue that apparently dates back to live and plagues both the stock game map and the vidiotmap. The stock map and vidiotmap are scaled slightly differently (for reasons that are unknown to me), so perhaps that coupled with the fact that both maps are scaled quite incorrectly for that safeguard instance led you to believe that the map was rotated?

[Rudra]

The vidiotmaps version I was using prior was the link that kept coming up in searches. I24 and beyond. The first page of the updated Vidiotmaps thread. The corrected map was on page 20 of 21 of that thread.

 

 

[Placta]

The FF (and sometimes Atlas) safeguard has a weird issue where the markers on the map don't match up with their locations on the map (usually, last time I did it it worked fine), but the Vidiotmap I have (from that thread) is quite accurate if you look at the buildings, canals, etc. and match them up with what you see in the zone.

[AboveTheChemist]

13 hours ago, Rudra said:

The vidiotmaps version I was using prior was the link that kept coming up in searches. I24 and beyond. The first page of the updated Vidiotmaps thread. The corrected map was on page 20 of 21 of that thread.

Given that information, it appears you have been using the same and most current vidiotmap for the Founders' Falls safeguard the entire time. There is no corrected version of that map on page 20 of that thread, because I would have been the one to post it. As noted in my previous post, that map has not been updated since sometime prior to shutdown.

 

The image below shows the current stock FF safeguard map on the left, and the current vidiotmap (which dates back to at least i23) on the right. The vidiotmap is at a slightly smaller scale, but there are no rotation issues.

 

 

 

Below is the listing of the directory of safeguard maps that are used in the vidiotmap mod. The FF safeguard map (and most of the other safeguard maps) dates to July 29, 2009 (which is roughly Issue 15).

 

 

I am keenly interested in this issue because I have noted scaling issues with the Founders' Falls safeguard map for some time now, and several of your posts seemed to indicate that those might have been fixed. As the current caretaker of vidiotmaps, I would love to be able to update this particular map, but until those underlying scaling issues are corrected, there's not much I can do. As I noted before, I am interested in trying to replicate this potential bug on my end but I haven't seen sufficient data to convince me that this bug extends beyond the known map scaling issues.

 

If you are still having issues with the map window showing different maps before and after using the Reveal power, then it would be extremely helpful if you could post screenshots of your map window both before and after using the Reveal power. In general terms, I'd recommend including as many screenshots as possible (where applicable) when posting a bug report.

[Rudra]

I don't know what to tell you then. Prior to installing the file on page 20 of the thread, the map was rotated in the wrong direction. Regardless, this post was about the game using 2 different maps in the map window depending on whether Reveal was used or not.

[AboveTheChemist]

51 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I don't know what to tell you then.

No worries, I think a reasonable conclusion can be reached based on what's been posted, and the first sentence of the first post sums things up nicely. I am satisfied, at least, that the issue is unrelated to vidiotmaps. It's a shame you can't provide any screenshots, as there doesn't appear to be enough info available to reliably replicate the issue. But, I'll give it a shot the next time I am on Brainstorm.

[TheZag]

i went ahead and ran all over the map to reveal the player accessible portions.  2 screenshots here,  before and after reveal is used.  i turned the map mod off for this but the results are the same with it on.  nothing is rotated,  look at where the markers are and the uncovered portion of the map before reveal is used.

 

 

its is just a scale issue,  no new map, nothing is rotated,  nothing to do with vidiotmaps.  although i suppose if you remade the map to fit in the tiny corner of the first image then it would 'work'.

 

you feel like its 2 different maps because when you start,  the map isnt zoomed all the way out and it looks like everything is correct when there is fog.  when u use reveal and it automatically zooms everything out and suddenly looks out of whack when in reality it was like that the whole time.

[Rudra]

Sure. Except on my map window until I downloaded and installed the new vidiotmaps patch, it was rotated. It was not a question of zooming in or out, or fog or no. The BANK was at the NORTH on the map in the window when I used Reveal and at the WEST on the map when I did not use it.

 

I get it. You don't have that problem. Now that I have the maps from page 20 of the thread, I don't either. I should have taken a screenshot. I didn't. I screwed up on that. That still does not mean the devs should not check the Reveal power or the Safeguard or the game itself. Founder's Falls safeguard was pulling two different maps for the map window depending on whether I used Reveal or not at the time. It was annoying as hell watching the bank disappear from where it was marked on the map when I used Reveal and suddenly be somewhere else I knew it could not be. That needs to be reviewed.

 

I'm not saying vidiotmaps has a problem. I'm asking for the devs to check the map links for Founder's Falls safeguard, particularly for the Reveal power.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to remove confusing line. And separate run-on sentence.

[lemming]

So a simple check would be to back out the vidiotmaps and use the game ones.  If it has that issue, then yea, it's something for the devs to check into.

(I'll check tomorrow night if no one else has by then)

 

Do you remember if after you hit reveal if any other landmarks such as the badges and enemy locations were noted?

[Rudra]

Bank, university, and Red River icons are the only icons I saw move. I didn't see any badge markers on the map, but I also wasn't looking for it. I already had the safeguard explore, so I was only paying attention to primary reference points. Most notably, the bank so I could head off the villain.

 

I wish I could give more useful data, but I've given everything. Reveal loaded a different map when I used it on the Founder's Falls safeguard as opposed to the map the instance loaded. It did that for a whole week. I manually loaded a patch to the maps and the rotation stopped.

 

My games tend to have weird things happen. I'm pretty well known in Everlasting TFs for complaining about weird things happening. If the devs look into this and find something? Great, hope it is a quick fix. If they look into it and find nothing? Oh well, at least it is not happening any more. If they don't look into it? Oh well, at least it is not happening any more.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add "so I could head off the villain".

[AboveTheChemist]

Here's what I saw, using the vidiotmap for the Founders' Falls safeguard, and using a similar approach to TheZag's post above. The image on the left is what I could reveal by traversing the instance, and the image on the right is after using Reveal.

 

 

In the image on the left, no vidiotmap markers or symbols are visible that would clearly distinguish this map from the stock game map. The only subtle clue is the black border around the map (see the comparison I posted above), and that blends in with the black border within the map window itself. So, without using Reveal, the vidiotmap and stock game map are nearly indistinguishable unless examined closely.

 

12 hours ago, Rudra said:

The BANK was at the NORTH on the map in the window when I used Reveal and at the WEST on the map when I did not use it.

 

8 hours ago, Rudra said:

Bank, university, and Red River icons are the only icons I saw move.

 

These two new bits of info are extremely helpful. Those icons are not part of the vidiotmap (which contains only the exploration badge marker and the five square markers for the side mission key mobs). Those icons you mentioned are independent of the map image displayed beneath them. As far as I know they are completely server-side and no client-side mods (like vidiotmaps) can influence where they appear.

 

If those icons are what you saw rotate when you used Reveal, then that issue is unrelated to the map image displayed in the window.

 

If you saw the icons and the underlying map rotate, then the game must have rotated the map image for some reason. I established in a prior post that the Founders' Falls safeguard vidiotmap has not changed in 12+ years, and even though you updated your vidiotmap installation, the version of the Founders' Falls safeguard vidiotmap on your computer is still that same 12+ year old map. So, if the map image was rotated, it was the game's doing, and not because your previous vidiotmap file contained a rotated map.

 

The fact that your rotation issued stopped when you updated vidiotmaps might also be purely coincidental. Whatever change occurred to halt your rotation issues could certainly have happened around the same time, but I wouldn't rule out other factors.

 

Perhaps the rotation issue you saw is somehow related to the scaling issues that already exist on that map? I don't know how high up the bug list that one sits, but it's been reported repeatedly, and maybe fixing it (which I would love to see) would take care of this less-common rotation bug as well.

[lemming]

12 hours ago, Rudra said:

My games tend to have weird things happen. I'm pretty well known in Everlasting TFs for complaining about weird things happening. If the devs look into this and find something? Great, hope it is a quick fix. If they look into it and find nothing? Oh well, at least it is not happening any more. If they don't look into it? Oh well, at least it is not happening any more.

You might want to do a fresh install.  Make a backup so you can get your costumes, popmenus, powercust, screenshots, etc... back if wanted, but a fresh install may clear up some gunk that may be causing you issues and eliminate variables so that we can diagnose easier.