Minor Improvement to Archery: Improved Aim

[oedipus_tex]

This is a suggestion for a small tweak to Archery to make its secondary effects fit better with the archetype system, and also hopefully introduce new and interesting Archery builds.

 

Archery currently has no secondary effects on its blast powers. The set's special gimmick is slightly better base Accuracy in every power. However, this extra base Accuracy does not flex with archetype modifiers. In addition, it is tightly confined to the Archery blasts themselves.

 

 

I suggest that instead of extra Accuracy being built into each blast, Archery's Aim power receive a lingering ToHit buff around the strength of what you'd get from Combat Teleport for around 30 seconds. If current modifiers were used, the results would be:

• Blaster: +10% 
• Corruptor: +10%
• Defender: +12.5%

 

The justification for this would be that Archers naturally have keen eyesight, so for several seconds longer than other blast sets after taking Aim, all of their powers are more likely to hit. This would allow them to apply their extra aim to powers in Kinetics, Cold, the Blaster Manipulation sets, and anything else that rolls ToHit. 

[Aurora_Girl]

As a multiple-AT Archery fanboy, I 100% love this idea. 

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

The justification for this would be that Archers naturally have keen eyesight, so for several seconds longer than other blast sets after taking Aim, all of their powers are more likely to hit. This would allow them to apply their extra aim to powers in Kinetics, Cold, the Blaster Manipulation sets, and anything else that rolls ToHit. 

I know I'm going to get blasted for this... ... but here goes.... *dons Devil's Advocate horns* *dons flak vest and raincoat* *prays to survive*

 

Okay, archers are not inherently keen sighted for being archers, neither are all archers actually keen sighted. Though I will grant that every comic archer character I know of has ridiculously keen eyesight, but I only know Hawkeye, Green Arrow, and Red Arrow/Speedy. (Some would argue inhumanly, supernaturally keen eyesight on these normal human characters, at least as Hawkeye is portrayed in the movie, but I digress.) However, so too do the gunners. Not the random schmuck thug with a gun, but the named individuals like Deadshot. So are you going to ask for this bonus to be applied to AR as well? Or Dual Pistols? (Since that is closer to Deadshot for his twin arm... whatever you want to call them....

 

*takes off Devil's Advocate horns*

 

Okay, that said, I found archery as a set pretty damn boring. I don't think boosting ToHit on it is really going to change that or really improve its theme. I am open to just about anything that would make it a more interesting set to play though. I wish I had ideas for what, but I don't. Apologies.

 

*preemptively calls funeral parlor and starts pricing coffins*

Edited February 28, 2022 by Rudra

[A Cat]

Boosting to-hit is boring though. How about random crits? You get a nice injection of endorphins when you see it fire off. 

[Ston]

Not opposed to this idea. Don't see any power creep or harm in improving the Aim power. 

 

Also gonna shamelessly plug my archery suggestion here:

 

 

[biostem]

Maybe give aimed shot some toxic damage.  Perhaps turn ranged shot into a very narrow cone, to kind of simulate being able to shoot through multiple enemies.

[Marbing]

I like this idea. Archery and AR got left behind when they made all nukes crashless. Because their nukes were already crashless (which was a huge plus) now they are just meh sets in need of some real love. Or… just make all the non-weapon blast set nukes crash again! 😃

[Akisan]

On 3/1/2022 at 11:44 AM, th0ughtGun said:

Archery and AR got left behind when they made all nukes crashless. Because their nukes were already crashless

 

Very much this, just as Electrical Blast got left behind when everyone got free Fitness (one of the great perks of running an E3 blaster was not needing that pool, so you got 3 "extra" powers).  I don't know the exact numbers for nerfing other set's nukes vs. buffing Archery/ARs' when nukes went crashless, but it definitely feels like Archery and AR lost out on that deal.  Maybe since Electrical's been brought up to speed, they'll run a balance pass over these?

 

As for OP's suggestion, I'm rather ambivalent about it.  Once you start getting set bonuses (or even 2x yellow SOs) in your powers, that +10% to-hit will fill largely the same role as the +0.10x ACC : Offsetting high enemy defenses (or level differences).  To-hit's arguably better, but they'll feel about the same.  A "minor" thing that could really make Archery's Aim stand out is adding a lingering +Perc. to it (again, that keen-sightedness).  Being able to pop Aim to take out fleeing CoT ghosts or to offset a smoke grenade would be very in-theme for an Archer to do.

[Rudra]

If all you're looking at is Aim, here's a couple wild or dumb ideas:

 

1) What if Aim gave a recharge reduction like a weak Haste when used? Justification: Ancient war archers had to be able to accurately rapid fire multiple arrows back to back. (See old stone carvings showing archers on chariots holding three arrows with their bow hand while firing another.) Why give a haste effect to archery and not other sets? Firearms have their rate of fire built into them. Inherent blast attacks are dependent on the individual's body to be able to produce the effect. Fast archery depends on technique and training.

 

2) What if Aim gave a temporary range boost? Justification: During the 100 Years War between France and England, English longbowmen consistently out ranged their French crossbowmen counterparts. (Until late in the war when crossbows got much better range, but at the cost of rate of fire. See idea 1 above.) Increasing a bow's ability to hit accurately at longer distances requires training on the archer's part and reflects how bows were used historically compared to other ranged weapons.

 

Honestly, neither option I provided would make archery as a set fun for me. (Please, someone make archery as a set fun for me. I really want to like it.) Either could meet your need for an Aim tweak though that fits the theme of archery without relying on only archers being keen-sighted and all archers being keen-sighted.

 

Edit: A large part of archery was training, not keen-sightedness. That was the advantage of the crossbow and then the gun. They required much less training to be used. However, a skilled archer could perform feats pushing the capabilities of their weapon that would not really be matched until individuals started pushing what their guns could do, such as with palming the hammer on a pistol to rapid-fire a weapon not designed for that rate of fire.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Rudra

[biostem]

Is there some way to make attacks ignore a certain amount of damage resistance, to simulate armor penetration?  Maybe some sort of debuff "pierced", which applies a damage resistance debuff, but only for your archery attacks...

[Rudra]

Only way I can think of is to convert some of the damage to untyped.

 

Edit: Before anyone gets out the torches, pitchforks, rope, burning oil, tar, feathers, or what have you, I am not advocating for untyped damage. I am just answering a question.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Rudra

[Marbing]

I wouldn't mind an improved Aim that adds a lingering ToHit buff. But why not something more like this?: (numbers can obviously be tweaked but you will get the general idea)

Archer's Focus

Click

+30% Perception for 30 seconds

+20% Recharge for 30 seconds

+40% ToHit for 10 seconds

+30% Damage for 10 seconds

+20% Range for 10 seconds

+30% Damage for 30 seconds

+10% Tohit for 30 seconds

+10% Range for 30 seconds

90 Second Cooldown

 

This would be a nice unique Aim for Archery that would give it a much needed boost IMO. It gives you the initial big boost to dmg and tohit then after 10 seconds it cuts down to a more moderate boost that lingers for awhile. This would be a more traditional Aim style clicky.

 

 

But you could go with some a little different, like this : (again numbers can be adjust, they are just here to give you a general idea)

Archer's Focus
Toggle
+30% Perception

+10% Tohit

+30% Damage

+20% Recharge

+20% Range

 

cost 0.33 end/sec

 

This solution would get rid of burst damage (i know i know) but would give a constant boost to all effects for the duration of the toggle. It would make Gaussians less effective also. 

 

 

Okay I am ready for the flame wars now...

 

[oedipus_tex]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. 🙂
 

 

17 hours ago, biostem said:

Is there some way to make attacks ignore a certain amount of damage resistance, to simulate armor penetration?  Maybe some sort of debuff "pierced", which applies a damage resistance debuff, but only for your archery attacks...

 

 

Technically the answer is yes, powers can ignore Resistance. It's not necessarily always a bonus, though. Damage that ignores resistance ignores resist debuffs as well. This could hurt Archery on Defenders and Corruptors. Your suggestion is interesting though.

 

 

On 3/4/2022 at 3:44 AM, Akisan said:

As for OP's suggestion, I'm rather ambivalent about it.  Once you start getting set bonuses (or even 2x yellow SOs) in your powers, that +10% to-hit will fill largely the same role as the +0.10x ACC : Offsetting high enemy defenses (or level differences).  To-hit's arguably better, but they'll feel about the same.  A "minor" thing that could really make Archery's Aim stand out is adding a lingering +Perc. to it (again, that keen-sightedness).  Being able to pop Aim to take out fleeing CoT ghosts or to offset a smoke grenade would be very in-theme for an Archer to do.

 

 

I don't entirely agree with you about the value of +ToHit. IMO +ToHit is always valuable, because it allows you to skimp on slotting elsewhere in the build. Where I'll agree with you is I don't think adding it to Archery is a huge buff; you're possibly correct that Archery needs more than just that. However, since Archery's gimmick has always been "the extra accurate set" I think it's a small ask to change that from the current implementation to a global +ToHit buff that would be more applicable.

 

I'd be fine with extra affects like +Perception, +Range or other things being in there as well, if that's needed. I'd also be fine with something unusual like the +ToHit applying in an AoE to all teammates, essentially like "free" clickable Tactics.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts everyone. 

[ashenlost]

It would be cool if activating Aim gave your powers something like a 5% chance for instant recharge after being used......

[SwitchFade]

So I'm, I built my arch/TA to exemp. Last night I was exemp to a Croatoa team. I ended up carrying the team of 5-8 for hours, alpha up every 16-18 seconds, knockdown, stun/end drain, slows. My defenses at that level were over cap to ranged and 40% s/l...

 

I only mention this, because the perception that archery is behind other blast sets is, from direct play experience, not quite accurate. Granted the damage type is a bit more resisted, but the speed at which it can unload damage and mitigate incoming damage is incredible.

 

That said, if you want to give DreadNock even more uber-leetness, please do. It just makes it easier to hit when I alpha every group and basically wipe everything.

Edited March 10, 2022 by SwitchFade

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

That said, if you want to give DreadNock even more uber-leetness, please do. It just makes it easier to hit when I alpha every group and basically wipe everything.

The only thing I can see about Archery that I think could be improved is the way mobs you use Rain of Arrows on aggro before you finish the animation, even when you're far enough away to avoid drawing aggro with any other attack until it either hits or misses, and even when you're fully invisible. The change to the 'flight time' made in HC made the power more viable, reducing the likelihood that the group would leave the beaten zone before the arrows landed, but with that version, mobs didn't aggro until after you'd finished the animation, slightly before the arrows landed. If I had to guess, I'd say that the only change was to reduce the flight time to zero, leaving the target aggro occurring slightly before the arrows hit -- which makes it happen before the animation finishes.

[SwitchFade]

5 hours ago, srmalloy said:

The only thing I can see about Archery that I think could be improved is the way mobs you use Rain of Arrows on aggro before you finish the animation, even when you're far enough away to avoid drawing aggro with any other attack until it either hits or misses, and even when you're fully invisible. The change to the 'flight time' made in HC made the power more viable, reducing the likelihood that the group would leave the beaten zone before the arrows landed, but with that version, mobs didn't aggro until after you'd finished the animation, slightly before the arrows landed. If I had to guess, I'd say that the only change was to reduce the flight time to zero, leaving the target aggro occurring slightly before the arrows hit -- which makes it happen before the animation finishes.

Agreed, aggro timing needs to be adjusted

[Naraka]

On 3/5/2022 at 6:02 PM, Rudra said:

If all you're looking at is Aim, here's a couple wild or dumb ideas:

 

1) What if Aim gave a recharge reduction like a weak Haste when used? Justification: Ancient war archers had to be able to accurately rapid fire multiple arrows back to back. (See old stone carvings showing archers on chariots holding three arrows with their bow hand while firing another.) Why give a haste effect to archery and not other sets? Firearms have their rate of fire built into them. Inherent blast attacks are dependent on the individual's body to be able to produce the effect. Fast archery depends on technique and training.

 

 

I would kind of do the reverse and give each attack of the set a bonus that slightly reduces Aim's recharge.  You can also give a lingering +ToHit to Aim OR make it similar to Kinetic Melee's buff power that stockpiles buffs every time you attack...only thing I'd limit is a kind of duration boost to a separate +ToHit buff (the lingering ToHit) instead of a higher stacking ToHit buff that increases with every stack.  Namely because I am not a fan of the "stack up then use the biggest attack at max stacks" mentality of that power.  So, in essence, to get that lingering +ToHit, you have to shoot stuff while Aim is active and the more you shoot the longer it lingers....+ while Aim is down, your attacks are getting Aim up quicker.

 

On 3/5/2022 at 6:02 PM, Rudra said:

 

2) What if Aim gave a temporary range boost? Justification: During the 100 Years War between France and England, English longbowmen consistently out ranged their French crossbowmen counterparts. (Until late in the war when crossbows got much better range, but at the cost of rate of fire. See idea 1 above.) Increasing a bow's ability to hit accurately at longer distances requires training on the archer's part and reflects how bows were used historically compared to other ranged weapons.

 

 

I would likely push that idea as a utility bonus to Assault Rifle instead of Archery.  +Range and +perception in some fashion...