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Thorny assault underperformed badly on 2 pylon defeats - Is redraw responsible?


EnjoyTheJourney
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I tried two pylon defeats on a mind / thorn / soul dominator (beta server build). The numbers shown in COD and in Mids don't line up with how the combo actually performed. Here are the times ...

 

Pylon defeats:

6:05, 233 DPS

5:52, 237 DPS

 

Here are the damage numbers given in Mids for the main single target powers (a check for some Mids base damage values and cast times seems to line up with what's in COD, FWIW) ...

 

skewer: 275 with 1 AT +damage IO stack, 397 with build up engaged and Gaussian's build up proc activated, 1.056 seconds arcanatime cast speed

dominate: 328 with 1 AT +damage IO stack, 399 with BU engaged and Gaussian's build up proc activated, 1.32 seconds arcanatime cast speed

impale: 382 with 1 AT +damage IO stack, 550.6 with BU engaged and Gaussian's build up proc activated, 1.584 seconds arcanatime cast speed

thorn barrage: 568.7 with 1 AT +damage IO stack, 827.5 with BU engaged & Gaussian's build up proc activated, 2.244 seconds arcanatime cast speed

 

Soul drain was used whenever it was up and it had close to 50% uptime. Also, this is with T4 musculature radial and T4 degenerative core active, no other damage adders from incarnates, inspirations, pets, or other sources. Even without build up pylons should be going down noticeably faster. With build up having about 40% uptime it doesn't seem possible without major and repeated errors for pylon defeats to take this long. I'm not a top tier pylon defeater, by any means, but I'm not *that* bad at it. 

 

The only thing I can think of to explain these pylon times is that redraw might be an issue. Is that likely to be the case and is there any remedy, in case that is the problem? Or, am I missing something else? 

 

Thank you in advance for any insight provided. 

 

Here is the build, for reference ...

 

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.1.2.5
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Dominator
Primary Power Set: Mind Control
Secondary Power Set: Thorny Assault
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Force of Will
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Mesmerize -- CaloftheS-EndRdx/Sleep(A)
Level 1: Thorny Darts -- HO:Nucle(A)
Level 2: Dominate -- OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End(A), GldNet-Dam%(3), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(3), NrnSht-Dam%(5), UnbCns-Dam%(5), GldJvl-Dam%(25)
Level 4: Skewer -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), Hct-Acc/Rchg(7), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(23), Hct-Dam%(23)
Level 6: Confuse -- MlsIll-Acc/Rchg(A), MlsIll-Acc/EndRdx(9), MlsIll-Acc/Conf/Rchg(9), MlsIll-EndRdx/Conf(11), MlsIll-Dam%(11)
Level 8: Mass Hypnosis -- CaloftheS-Acc/Rchg(A), CaloftheS-Acc/EndRdx(13), CaloftheS-EndRdx/Sleep(15), CaloftheS-Acc/Sleep/Rchg(15), CaloftheS-Heal%(17)
Level 10: Impale -- Apc-Dmg(A), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), Apc-Acc/Rchg(29), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Apc-Dam%(36), SprAscoft-Rchg/+Dmg%(36)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Ksm-ToHit+(21), Rct-ResDam%(21)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 16: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(17), GssSynFr--Build%(19)
Level 18: Mighty Leap -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 20: Weaken Resolve -- Acc-I(A)
Level 22: Unleash Potential -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RechRdx-I(25), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 24: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Terrify -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(27)
Level 28: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31), UnbGrd-ResDam(37), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(43), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(50)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(31), ShlWal-Def(31)
Level 32: Mass Confusion -- CrcPrs-Conf(A), CrcPrs-Conf/Rchg(33), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg(33), CrcPrs-Acc/Rchg(33), CrcPrs-Conf/EndRdx(34), CrcPrs-Conf%(34)
Level 35: Ripper -- Arm-Dmg(A), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Arm-Acc/Rchg(37), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Arm-Dam%(39), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(39)
Level 38: Thorn Barrage -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(40), GldJvl-Dam%(40), FrcFdb-Rechg%(42), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(42)
Level 41: Dark Embrace -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(43), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(43), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(45), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 44: Soul Drain -- SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(46)
Level 47: Dark Obliteration -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg(A), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(48), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(48), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), PstBls-Dam%(50)
Level 49: Dark Consumption -- PreOptmz-EndMod/Acc/Rech(A), PreOptmz-Acc/Rech(50)
Level 1: Domination 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(19), Mrc-Rcvry+(27), Prv-Absorb%(42)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 14: Takeoff 
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon 
Level 50: Degenerative Core Flawless Interface 
Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany 
Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment 
------------

Edited by EnjoyTheJourney
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I don't recall Thorny Assault being looked on as a top tier assault set.  The lack of flexibility of a snipe is a minus plus I prefer Power boosting abilities on doms although Build Up is a nice little power itself.  

 

Here's a few things I always will do with some of those powers I'm familiar with that you have. 

 

With Weaken Resolve I just slot the Achilles Proc since it would have a 90% chance to fire and 27.5 -resist is always better than just 7.5 -res.  Trust your built in accuracy and tohitt plus team buffs to carry that one.  For Unleash Potential I like to slot 4 Shield Walls +5 all with recharge/defense and the unique and on doms I'll leave an extra slot for a LotG.  

 

On Soul Drain I will slot that Armageddon set to 5 there since the damage proc fires nice and consistent on this one, if I lack Tactics or a BU power I'd slot the Gaussian proc 6th.  On Dark Consumption I'll slot that winter set to 5 there plus then the gladiator -resistance proc since it'll be sure fire with the recharge on this power.  Slotted decent Dark Consumption moved up into my rotation to add some more pbaoe potential which is good since I know I can count on it to debuff consistent when I use this power so I know I'm getting good value on follow up attacks.  

 

I only slot the Panacea on Health since I look to lean on Domination and can count on Dark Consumption more frequently.  

Edited by Mezmera
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I can't speak to Thorny's damage potential, only its utility, which I think is a ripe area for some improvement. It's such a cool looking set. On live, it had Aim instead of Build Up, and the switch over on HC has helped it. But overall it's a surprisingly vanilla set. I wish there was something to really set it apart.

 

As for the numbers, all I can say is it feels slow. The redraw certainly doesn't help it. I could forgive low numbers if it had some interesting abilities. The current implementation has Thorntrops, which doesn't stand out to me, but is an opportunity for the developers to introduce something fun and unusual.

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On the topic of redraw.... I've long avoided it as I never believed that it did NOT affect overall chain times and thus DPS.

 

I was then proven wrong by some else's testing. Yes, it still feels like redraw always kills attack chains, but testing doesn't back that up.

 

@BillyMailman

 

"AR/TA toon, I made a chain of Burst, Electric Net Arrow, Slug, Ice Arrow, M30 Grenade, Flash Arrow. Longer would have meant a power with too long a recharge and needing a real build for global and hasten and whatnot, so it stopped at six powers. Total Arcanatime is 9.108s, and after cycling it ten times, I got 92s. If redraw mattered, it was nothing. That 1s is almost certainly me missing queueing things, or just not being perfect with hitting the phone to stop the stopwatch.

 

I then made a spider, and got a ten-attack chain. Single Shot, Mace Beam, Burst, Mace Beam Blast, Wide Area Web Grenade, Mace Beam volley, Heavy Burst, Poisonous Ray, Venom Grenade, Web Cocoon. Total Arcanatime, 20.064s. I stopped after three cycles took exactly a minute. Like, it's dead on."

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I will never understand the "only buffs, no nerfs" crowd. Only being satisfied with an "I Win" button is no way to balance anything.

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Posted (edited)

Thank you all for the feedback. It's particularly good to hear that redraw isn't substantially reducing damage. 

 

It still leaves a mystery, though. With zero damage adders beyond 1 stack of the AT +damage IO, DPS should be fairly close to what was observed.

 

When considering that the AT +damage IO averages about 2 stacks (which it does, leading to +42.5% damage), that there's about 40% uptime on build up (+68% damage) and close to 20% uptime on the Gaussian build up proc (+68% damage for 5.5 seconds each activation), plus about 45% uptime on soul drain (+34% damage from hitting one enemy), and with all of these damage adders stackable, it's surprising that DPS would be so noticeably below what the Mids numbers suggest. It's also substantially different from other pylon defeats I've done, as the DPS found in pylon defeats tends to line up better with Mids numbers than for this combination. 

 

Perhaps I should just put this down to an unusually poorly handled pair of pylon defeats on my part. When I get a bit of spare time I'll look at modifying the build and try again. 

Edited by EnjoyTheJourney
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Posted (edited)

I tried three more pylon defeats and came away with similar data to that reported before, with the exception of that last pylon defeat, which took 7 minutes (219 DPS 🙄). Not sure how that happened; best guess is a string of bad luck. To add injury to insult, a dropship came by and 2-shotted this dominator a few seconds after the 7 minute pylon defeat.

 

Was the defeat-by-dropship rikti revenge for defeating a pylon, a kind of teasing comment on how little single target damage that dominator did, or just indifferent random fire targeted at the nearest enemy? Only the dropship knows for sure!

 

Mind provides a quick-recharging hold that can be proc'd up, but that otherwise relies primarly on the assault set to provide good single target damage. The def debuffs to enemies and the utility in the set makes thorny assault interesting to explore. But the single target damage potential seems fairly lackluster when compared to multiple other assault sets.  

 

 

Edited by EnjoyTheJourney
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On 4/25/2022 at 8:52 AM, EnjoyTheJourney said:

When considering that the AT +damage IO averages about 2 stacks...

 

 

Bouncing off this comment: making this proc more equitable is at the top of my wishlist for Dominators. I think if it could be slotted into any attack and not require that attack contain a control attribmod that a lot of balance issues would resolve. Right now, the best places to slot it are unevenly distributed. Needless to say, slotting the full set and still benefitting from the proc is difficult. 

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4 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Bouncing off this comment: making this proc more equitable is at the top of my wishlist for Dominators. I think if it could be slotted into any attack and not require that attack contain a control attribmod that a lot of balance issues would resolve. Right now, the best places to slot it are unevenly distributed. Needless to say, slotting the full set and still benefitting from the proc is difficult. 

Completely agreed that damage boosting AT IOs should be equitably usable across all the powersets. 

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16 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Completely agreed that damage boosting AT IOs should be equitably usable across all the powersets. 

 

Yeah I love the bonuses and intent of that set but that whole set should be configured to boost assault powers and then redo the other ATO a bit so its more attractive to use in a control power.  

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On 4/29/2022 at 8:55 AM, kelika2 said:

Animation/activation times on a few attacks is another set killer.  Impale and Spine Burst are the big offenders

This is why I don't use them.  I tried them out and didn't like the animation time.  It's never good to be squishy and locked down by your own power. 

 

I find Fling Thorns to provide more utility with the extra wide starting point of the arc.  Get some range bonuses along with the Positron Blast damage/range IO and it is superior in almost every way.  I started to use Thorntrops and it works pretty well with just two or three frankenslots of dam/rech.  Multiple patches stack and is decent value for rooted targets, plus it is a soft control for mobile ones. 

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  • 1 month later

Its the activation time on impale its a real killer.  I keep looking at thorn barrage and get all excited but I am not sure how to get a decent attack chain out of it. (Plant/thorn)

 

Maybe try working in more of minds controls but slotted for damage procs?  Something like thorn barrage, mesmerize, dominate recycle if you can get the times that low?  But I would try leaving out impale just because of its incredibly painful animation.  

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  • 3 weeks later

Examining the build you might verify that the proc rate you are actually getting out of your -res proc and the Ascendancy of the dominator proc actually match what mids/COD are assuming. You have a lot of recharge in those powers (Impale/Ripper) and my understanding is this negatively affects the proc rate.  Since Negating the pylons 20% res and getting +damage out of Ascendancy would definitely be significant in this test, it would be something to verify.

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  • 3 weeks later
On 4/25/2022 at 12:39 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

On the topic of redraw

 

As best I can recall a number of weapon sets ( but not all ) were given a pass a long time ago to stop redraw from affecting cast times.  I don't remember which ones still have the redraw issue but I think Spines is one of them, and so I'd expect Thorn to have the issue as well, given that it's mostly a copy.  Just because some sets were tested and don't have the redraw penalty doesn't mean that some don't still have it.  If the specific set in question hasn't been tested then I wouldn't presume.

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