Change Confront and Assassin's Strike into a distance-closing attack

[Rudra]

The OP's request was founded on the desire to incorporate a pool power into melee so he would not need to take the pool and can still take the other pools he wants. He admitted as much in this thread, but I am not sufficiently motivated enough right now to look for it and link it here. So @arcane's comment still holds true. The OP does not want to give up the Big 4 pools to get the teleport functionality he wants, so he is asking to have it integrated into the melee sets. The fact Confront is so under-utilized is simply a convenient mechanism for the pitch.

[arcane]

17 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The OP's request was founded on the desire to incorporate a pool power into melee so he would not need to take the pool and can still take the other pools he wants. He admitted as much in this thread, but I am not sufficiently motivated enough right now to look for it and link it here. So @arcane's comment still holds true. The OP does not want to give up the Big 4 pools to get the teleport functionality he wants, so he is asking to have it integrated into the melee sets. The fact Confront is so under-utilized is simply a convenient mechanism for the pitch.

Yeah I would be all for giving Confront a fresh unique functionality. But the “I can’t live without these 4 meta power pools” is an offensively bad argument for the specific proposal in the OP 🙂

Edited May 5, 2022 by arcane

[Sakura Tenshi]

This is purely random and a bit of a hijack, but my own proposal was not just foe teleports, but also targeted self teleport gap closers and just plain old ranged attacks, depending on the power set. And I figure I’ll throw up here specifically what powerset would get what in my head.

 

Rush Gap closers: Broadsword (lunging thrust style), Staff fighting (also a lunging thrust), claws (probably could bring back the old swipe animation and make it an aftertrail thing for a berserker rush look), Titan weapons, battle axe, war mace (just straight up overhead swing and charge. Alternative idea for battle axe would be to first throw the axe at the foe and you basically rush in to pull it out), street justice, ice melee (just turn into a giant icicle and crash into a foe)

 

Ranged attack: Katana, martial arts, (straight up weaboo sword beam/ki blast), dual blades (we have air cutter from syndicate we can use), energy melee, radiation melee, fiery melee (probably just lift a ranged attack from the blast sets)

 

teleport foe types: Electric melee (magnetism!), dark melee (suck foes into a void, alternatively maybe give this to dwarf form kheldians), psionic melee (telekinetic grab), spines (basically shoot out one long spine and pull someone towards you.), kinetic melee.

 

I think I might be missing a few, I didn’t want to give another ranged attack to sets that already have those (claws, spines, staff, and kin) some might be better with another type and probably most people will reject these ideas outright. Just mostly want to say my piece, namely that I think confront sucks as is, this could be a good way to make scrapper melees unique from brutes and ranks, and I’ve wanted my weaboo katana air cutter attack since live, dammit!

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

This is purely random and a bit of a hijack, but my own proposal was not just foe teleports, but also targeted self teleport gap closers and just plain old ranged attacks, depending on the power set. And I figure I’ll throw up here specifically what powerset would get what in my head.

 

Rush Gap closers: Broadsword (lunging thrust style), Staff fighting (also a lunging thrust), claws (probably could bring back the old swipe animation and make it an aftertrail thing for a berserker rush look), Titan weapons, battle axe, war mace (just straight up overhead swing and charge. Alternative idea for battle axe would be to first throw the axe at the foe and you basically rush in to pull it out), street justice, ice melee (just turn into a giant icicle and crash into a foe)

 

Ranged attack: Katana, martial arts, (straight up weaboo sword beam/ki blast), dual blades (we have air cutter from syndicate we can use), energy melee, radiation melee, fiery melee (probably just lift a ranged attack from the blast sets)

 

teleport foe types: Electric melee (magnetism!), dark melee (suck foes into a void, alternatively maybe give this to dwarf form kheldians), psionic melee (telekinetic grab), spines (basically shoot out one long spine and pull someone towards you.), kinetic melee.

 

I think I might be missing a few, I didn’t want to give another ranged attack to sets that already have those (claws, spines, staff, and kin) some might be better with another type and probably most people will reject these ideas outright. Just mostly want to say my piece, namely that I think confront sucks as is, this could be a good way to make scrapper melees unique from brutes and ranks, and I’ve wanted my weaboo katana air cutter attack since live, dammit!

Seems like a bit much. Having a ranged attack or a gap closer is something special for a melee set to have without pool help. Proliferating them like crazy cheapens everything. I like the idea of keeping Confront as is but adding a debuff or crit chance modifier best personally. Throwing every Scrapper primary a high end new primary power is a bit over the top and smells like strong power creep potential. We need to keep in mind that no matter how few people take Confront, Scrappers can’t afford to get much stronger than they already are in the current meta.

Edited May 5, 2022 by arcane

[PeregrineFalcon]

Hey @arcane correct me if I've misunderstood something here.

 

After failing to get people to agree to giving Blasters innate mez protection, people are now trying to get people to agree with giving ranged attacks to Scrappers.

 

Did I read that right?

[Sakura Tenshi]

13 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Hey @arcane correct me if I've misunderstood something here.

 

After failing to get people to agree to giving Blasters innate mez protection, people are now trying to get people to agree with giving ranged attacks to Scrappers.

 

Did I read that right?

well, the original poster seemed to just want gap closers. I’m the one who asked for a ranged attack for scrappers. That being said I never really supported mez protection for blasters (Kheldians on the other hand…) so it could be said the parties are different. That also being said, scrappers already can obtain ranged attacks through Epic power pools, though said attacks lack a taunt component, I also admittedly imagined the ranged attacks as being a little bit weaker than said EPP options (but especially in relation to laser beam eyes which I think should be turned into a snipe but that’s another arguement)

[PeregrineFalcon]

12 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

I’m the one who asked for a ranged attack for scrappers.

If you want an AT that has armor and ranged attacks why not just play a Sentinel?

 

If you give Scrappers more ranged attacks then why would anyone ever play a Sentinel? Or, quite frankly, a Blaster?

[Rudra]

I think (s)he just wants a ranged attack for sets that currently lack them. Like Katana.

[Sakura Tenshi]

Well if you look at one of my earlier posts I don’t intend for ranged attacks for all scrapper power sets, for another thing, just because I want one attack to have a distance ability does not mean I want scrappers to eclipse blasters or even sentinels in ranged damage output, what I want is to improve scrapper taunt ability in a way that’s also in line with their main function: design damage, while also adding uniqueness to scrapper melee sets (consider that we have four ATs that pull from the same melee power set pool).  Next, it’s highly egregious to think such a thing would make blasters and sentinels obsolete, especially since scrappers don’t have access to dual pistols or beam rifle. Lastly, blasters are capable of soft capping their defenses and even gaining mez protection through their ATOs and incarnate abilities, have access to many melee attacks, and can attack from about any distance, your argument could easily flip to “why ever play scrappers, brutes, or stalkers when blasters exist?” Oh, also, if all it took was a few ranged attacks to instantly invalidate blasters and sentinels than that should have happened back in live with APPs since claws and spines already have two ranged attacks (also later kin melee and staff fighting to a lesser extent)

 

hmm, I actually might just mess around with a meme build on test now just to see how a “ranged scrapper” might do.

[A.I.D.A.]

On 4/28/2022 at 1:48 PM, Solvernia said:

DPA on long form AS is terrible. The only reason to use it is for RP purposes. You're better off getting an immediate crit with your strongest attack, using AS right after, and using the hide proc in AS to crit again with your strongest attack. Much more damage in the same amount of time.

 

Only time spent after aggro starts counts. Long-form AS is amazing solo, because the only 'fight time' it takes is the instant it goes off and aggro has begun. I'm going to guess you don't play solo, or you'd understand that.

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Aida LaCanthe
typo

[arcane]

Yeah DPA is irrelevant for a fight opener like long form AS or Snipe. Quoted post misses the point. If you’re going to ignore every tactic but raw DPA you simply never use the long form and leave that version of the power alone for people with imaginations.

Edited May 6, 2022 by arcane

[Koopak]

9 hours ago, Aida LaCanthe said:

 

Only time spent after aggro starts counts. Long-form AS is amazing solo, because the only 'fight time' it takes is the instant it goes off and aggro has begun. I'm going to guess you don't play solo, or you'd understand that.

 

 

52 minutes ago, arcane said:

Yeah DPA is irrelevant for a fight opener like long form AS or Snipe. Quoted post misses the point. If you’re going to ignore every tactic but raw DPA you simply never use the long form and leave that version of the power alone for people with imaginations.

Hard disagree on this claim. DPA matters in both due to the length of the animation time. I really want to like slow AS because i love demoralize but as a whole the length of cast, especially on the slower powersets, means that your hit wont come out until your team has gotten 1-2 attacks out usually. Snipe can be started early enough that most of it is spent while the rest of the party is closing and has the utility of extreme range for pulling, AS cant unless you are somehow reliably faster than your team.

This means the engagement has started, the 'fight time' is ticking, and you've spent upwards of 2 seconds twiddling your thumbs. The only time this claim holds true in my opinion is when solo, and even then one can argue its just adding unnecessary down time.

Back on Confront, I do prefer a debuff, a good one imo is -to-hit as that reinforces the idea of dueling and of saving teammates. Additionally the -to-hit would make it a decent value power for AV fighting which makes it juuuust useful enough for me to consider on some builds. I also think it needs duration of the taunt buffed to match Brute and Tanker taunts, since Scrapper will still struggle to pull off of them unintentionally due to AT scales on threat.
 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Koopak

[arcane]

32 minutes ago, Koopak said:

 

Hard disagree on this claim. DPA matters in both due to the length of the animation time. I really want to like slow AS because i love demoralize but as a whole the length of cast, especially on the slower powersets, means that your hit wont come out until your team has gotten 1-2 attacks out usually. Snipe can be started early enough that most of it is spent while the rest of the party is closing and has the utility of extreme range for pulling, AS cant unless you are somehow reliably faster than your team.

This means the engagement has started, the 'fight time' is ticking, and you've spent upwards of 2 seconds twiddling your thumbs. The only time this claim holds true in my opinion is when solo, and even then one can argue its just adding unnecessary down time.

Back on Confront, I do prefer a debuff, a good one imo is -to-hit as that reinforces the idea of dueling and of saving teammates. Additionally the -to-hit would make it a decent value power for AV fighting which makes it juuuust useful enough for me to consider on some builds. I also think it needs duration of the taunt buffed to match Brute and Tanker taunts, since Scrapper will still struggle to pull off of them unintentionally due to AT scales on threat.
 

So don’t use the slow version in those particular team settings…. if it’s not an efficient time to open with it, you… don’t… Doesn’t mean DPA matters when it IS a reasonable time to open with it… 

 

Repeating back to us the circumstances in which fast AS is preferable to slow AS doesn’t say anything about the usefulness of slow AS in other tactical situations. Use it when soloing or when adequately running ahead enough to mitigate the animation time, this is simple.
 

Agree -tohit makes the most sense for the debuff an enraged taunted baddie may have. Tempted to even say,if the -tohit is large enough to mitigate the consequences, it would be thematic for it to do -tohit but +dam - blind rage type thing. -Def could make sense too but don’t think that’s a good idea unless it’s unenhanceable because that would make an entire AT obsessed with Achilles’ Heel procs.

Edited May 6, 2022 by arcane

[Koopak]

6 minutes ago, arcane said:

So don’t use the slow version in those particular team settings…. if it’s not an efficient time to open with it, you… don’t… Doesn’t mean DPA matters when it IS a reasonable time to open with it… 

 

Repeating back to us the circumstances in which fast AS is preferable to slow AS doesn’t say anything about the usefulness of slow AS in other tactical situations. Use it when soloing or when adequately running ahead enough to mitigate the animation time, this is simple.

If a power is only useful in rare niche circumstances, or arguably, solo. And that power is a core power that holds the lion's share of the AT's mechanics, yeah I'm going to argue that's a problem. Now is it a big problem? No, Stalkers are in a good spot, no one is, or I hope they aren't, arguing Stalkers are in a bad spot. However that doesn't change that the experience of using slow AS is garbage and its hard to make a real case for using it ever beyond:

"I'm playing solo and don't care about my clear speed in anyway or the time spent waiting for an attack to go off for my optimal start" or "I just like it."

Which the latter one there? That's why I still use Slow AS on my stalker, because I like watching a boss drop dead in one smack, even if I could have killed him before he could attack back, by just chaining my strongest non-AS ST attack and then fast AS at no real cost. The incentives aren't there to make Slow AS worth using in the majority of the game, and AS is a core power central to an AT, that is just bad.

To be clear I'm not arguing Slow AS needs a gap closer, though that would make it work more like snipe, or that it needs a damage buff. What I think would work best is first, standardizing all Slow ASs to the faster versions some Powersets have, and then MAYBE (note the caps) a small buff to Demoralize's duration, say from 8 to 10 or 12 seconds. That would make using AS as an opener in a team situation more palatable due to being consistent, and in many cases, up to a second faster, while sweetening the deal just a little with the buff to Demoralize.

That would make it such that Slow AS is roughly equivalent to a little worse than Fast AS in DPA, but more importantly make the animation time as much as a second faster on some sets while giving more incentive to use it. In fact at that point, despite damage being effectively the same, and in no meaningful way impacting dps or even survival much, I would feel tempted not only to open with it if I get to the pack before my team, but maybe even sneak it in with placate for team survival, using fear as a small mitigation tool. As it is however, the power is simply to unwieldy to be used that way

As it is, many, if not most, Slow ASs are just impractical to use in anything but solo.

[arcane]

24 minutes ago, Koopak said:

If a power is only useful in rare niche circumstances, or arguably, solo. And that power is a core power that holds the lion's share of the AT's mechanics, yeah I'm going to argue that's a problem. Now is it a big problem? No, Stalkers are in a good spot, no one is, or I hope they aren't, arguing Stalkers are in a bad spot. However that doesn't change that the experience of using slow AS is garbage and its hard to make a real case for using it ever beyond:

"I'm playing solo and don't care about my clear speed in anyway or the time spent waiting for an attack to go off for my optimal start" or "I just like it."

Which the latter one there? That's why I still use Slow AS on my stalker, because I like watching a boss drop dead in one smack, even if I could have killed him before he could attack back, by just chaining my strongest non-AS ST attack and then fast AS at no real cost. The incentives aren't there to make Slow AS worth using in the majority of the game, and AS is a core power central to an AT, that is just bad.

To be clear I'm not arguing Slow AS needs a gap closer, though that would make it work more like snipe, or that it needs a damage buff. What I think would work best is first, standardizing all Slow ASs to the faster versions some Powersets have, and then MAYBE (note the caps) a small buff to Demoralize's duration, say from 8 to 10 or 12 seconds. That would make using AS as an opener in a team situation more palatable due to being consistent, and in many cases, up to a second faster, while sweetening the deal just a little with the buff to Demoralize.

That would make it such that Slow AS is roughly equivalent to a little worse than Fast AS in DPA, but more importantly make the animation time as much as a second faster on some sets while giving more incentive to use it. In fact at that point, despite damage being effectively the same, and in no meaningful way impacting dps or even survival much, I would feel tempted not only to open with it if I get to the pack before my team, but maybe even sneak it in with placate for team survival, using fear as a small mitigation tool. As it is however, the power is simply to unwieldy to be used that way

As it is, many, if not most, Slow ASs are just impractical to use in anything but solo.

I don’t see how any of the above cam constitute a problem at all when every Stalker can simply switch over to using fast AS the second that’s the more efficient thing to do…

 

”Slow AS sucks when circumstances dictate you should be using fast AS” is what I think I just read, to which my reaction is “uh… good?”

[Rudra]

Wasn't AS' point was for solo stalkers to gank targets? The only reason we have a fast form AS is because people complained they could only use AS as a fight opener.

 

I don't hear any complaints about snipe. And it functions the exact same way. You have your long, tedious wind up, then the big hit out of combat. Then you have the faster attack rate in combat. Does snipe not also have higher damage per activation in short form as opposed to long form? Is its long form not also disabled by teammates attacking anything? So how is long form AS niche and not long form snipe?

 

The point of the snipe and AS attacks to my understanding, at least long form, has always been for the solo player to line up a target and maul or drop it to start the fight.

 

And please stop calling solo niche. The game is designed to be equally playable solo and on teams. So solo is not "niche". Even if some people only team.

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Wasn't AS' point was for solo stalkers to gank targets? The only reason we have a fast form AS is because people complained they could only use AS as a fight opener.

 

I don't hear any complaints about snipe. And it functions the exact same way. You have your long, tedious wind up, then the big hit out of combat. Then you have the faster attack rate in combat. Does snipe not also have higher damage per activation in short form as opposed to long form? Is its long form not also disabled by teammates attacking anything? So how is long form AS niche and not long form snipe?

 

The point of the snipe and AS attacks to my understanding, at least long form, has always been for the solo player to line up a target and maul or drop it to start the fight.

 

And please stop calling solo niche. The game is designed to be equally playable solo and on teams. So solo is not "niche". Even if some people only team.

The fast AS was literally added to address the pitfalls of slow AS (and propelled Stalkers to top tier AT in the process), so yes, Koopak’s issue has been addressed years ago.

[Koopak]

22 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Wasn't AS' point was for solo stalkers to gank targets? The only reason we have a fast form AS is because people complained they could only use AS as a fight opener.

 

I don't hear any complaints about snipe. And it functions the exact same way. You have your long, tedious wind up, then the big hit out of combat. Then you have the faster attack rate in combat. Does snipe not also have higher damage per activation in short form as opposed to long form? Is its long form not also disabled by teammates attacking anything? So how is long form AS niche and not long form snipe?

 

The point of the snipe and AS attacks to my understanding, at least long form, has always been for the solo player to line up a target and maul or drop it to start the fight.

 

And please stop calling solo niche. The game is designed to be equally playable solo and on teams. So solo is not "niche". Even if some people only team.

Snipe has the benefit of range, it is very possible to target an enemy, and start a snipe, and finish it in the time it takes your team to close the distance. Thus its functional DPA is much higher than its raw numbers. AS does not have this benefit, as I outlined, because the Stalker must get into melee range, this means that, assuming the team is all moving at roughly the same speed, they will begin their up to 3.67 second cast time at the same time their teammates land their first hit. Thus the DPA is relevant, because the Stalker would be better served simply attacking with another power to start.

AS may have perhaps been envisioned as a gank tool originally, but id argue that's kind of crap experientially, and it seems the devs agreed, choosing to make it a more active part of the Stalker playstyle. You can call this a change made because of player complaints if you want, but I'd like to give the Live dev team a little more credit than simply saying they changed it because people complained.

Lastly I am not calling Solo niche, please do not misunderstand, or misrepresent my words. I am saying that Solo play, on a stalker, without caring about clear time, and without being annoyed by spending 3.67 seconds starting many if not every pack of enemies, is probably fairly uncommon. Especially when you consider that yes, the game is designed to be equally playable solo and on teams, so perhaps Slow AS, a part of a core powerset should have enough value in teams to be worth considering using.
 

 

38 minutes ago, arcane said:

I don’t see how any of the above cam constitute a problem at all when every Stalker can simply switch over to using fast AS the second that’s the more efficient thing to do…

 

”Slow AS sucks when circumstances dictate you should be using fast AS” is what I think I just read, to which my reaction is “uh… good?”

Not to be rude, but you are either very much misunderstanding or are intentionally ignoring my argument by placing it in a box you've predefined. At no point have I argued you shouldn't use Fast AS when Fast AS is superior to Slow AS. What I am saying is Slow AS is almost NEVER optimal. Yes, that is a problem, because at that point all Slow AS is, is an annoyance you have to play around.

You seem to be laboring under the assumption that teams that move quick enough, quick enough defined as "the same speed as their melee dps AT" to make Slow AS as an opener an inefficient option, is an uncommon situation. I do not know how you can have this view, I would assume your experience with the average team must be very different to mine if that is the case.

I say you must have this assumption because you repeatedly focus on the idea that situations in which Slow AS is a good option are common, at least common enough to make any discussion of improvements to its cast time either a negative, or at least without positive for the game as a whole. This is an assumption I do not share, if I did, I would not be having this debate with you right now. So allow me to be clear.

The situations in which using Slow AS, as it stands today, is a good gameplay decision with positive incentives that are not outweighed by simply using a standard attack followed by Fast AS, are so uncommon as to be a problem. A problem because they relegate Slow AS to such a narrow range of use that if given the choice many, if not most players would disable Slow AS entirely.

Before you counter with "so just don't use it" I would like to add that this argument, while usually quite valid, falls on its face when discussing AS due to the fact that its mere existence and method of function means that while one can choose not to use it, they cannot choose not to interact with it. It is a mechanic that all Stalkers must always interact with, even if that interaction is choosing to use a different opener from stealth. A player cannot simply walk up to a pack and play normally opening with their strongest hit, they must remain conscious of this mechanic and choose to bypass it.

That is a very unpleasant QoL experience to force on people because you personally like it, or because of fears regarding insurance policies on cottages.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Koopak

[Koopak]

11 minutes ago, arcane said:

The fast AS was literally added to address the pitfalls of slow AS (and propelled Stalkers to top tier AT in the process), so yes, Koopak’s issue has been addressed years ago.

Yes, and there's a debate to be had as to weather or not that is a balance concern. However my argument has never been about giving Stalkers power, but instead about making the experience of playing one a bit smoother and removing what is largely a false choice. One could EASILY argue that Fast AS should be nerfed and Slow AS left alone, and id be open to that idea provided it succeeded in making the use of Slow AS as an opener a good decision in more gameplay situations.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Koopak

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Koopak said:

Snipe has the benefit of range, it is very possible to target an enemy, and start a snipe, and finish it in the time it takes your team to close the distance. Thus its functional DPA is much higher than its raw numbers. AS does not have this benefit, as I outlined, because the Stalker must get into melee range, this means that, assuming the team is all moving at roughly the same speed, they will begin their up to 3.67 second cast time at the same time their teammates land their first hit. Thus the DPA is relevant, because the Stalker would be better served simply attacking with another power to start.

Except the stalker will still be in combat mode and not be able to use long form AS anyway.

 

5 minutes ago, Koopak said:

Slow AS, a part of a core powerset should have enough value in teams to be worth considering using.

That is one power in the set. That still has the fast form version available. As contrasted to the Thermal, Ice, or the other sets that have half their sets only usable on teammates and making the set almost useless while solo. I'm not hearing any complaints about that either.

 

It sincerely feels like you and the OP are cherry picking. Or arguing in bad faith.

7 minutes ago, Koopak said:

AS may have perhaps been envisioned as a gank tool originally, but id argue that's kind of crap experientially, and it seems the devs agreed, choosing to make it a more active part of the Stalker playstyle.

Just because a power is improved to be usable during combat instead of just prior to combat does not negate the "gank" intention of the power. It just means that after people complained, the devs agreed that AS and snipe as strictly combat openers was too limited and so expanded them to be both combat opening gank attacks and mid-combat speed attacks.

 

10 minutes ago, Koopak said:

Before you counter with "so just don't use it" I would like to add that this argument, while usually quite valid, falls on its face when discussing AS due to the fact that its mere existence and method of function means that while one can choose not to use it, they cannot choose not to interact with it. It is a mechanic that all Stalkers must always interact with, even if that interaction is choosing to use a different opener from stealth. A player cannot simply walk up to a pack and play normally opening with their strongest hit, they must remain conscious of this mechanic and choose to bypass it.

That is a very unpleasant QoL experience to force on people because you personally like it, or because of fears regarding insurance policies on cottages.

And you lost me with this argument....

[Koopak]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Except the stalker will still be in combat mode and not be able to use long form AS anyway.

This is not always the case, and is not a situation I would consider a problem. Usually I experience teams clear a pack, and in the time it  take them to close, stalker included, hide will be up. Similarly Snipe will be half way through casting or more by the time the stalker reaches the target.
 

 

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That is one power in the set. That still has the fast form version available. As contrasted to the Thermal, Ice, or the other sets that have half their sets only usable on teammates and making the set almost useless while solo. I'm not hearing any complaints about that either.

Support ATs having powers that only effect teammates is in line with the AT's role. If you want to argue Stalker's role as an AT is solo play, particularly if you wish to claim it is slow solo play, then hell I have no debate for you beyond thinking that's kind of a bad design for an MMO. I get your point of trying to draw equivalence here but I don't believe there is an equivalence to be had. Solo play may be a big advantage CoX has and a guiding principle for much of its content, but I think you are going to have to work hard to prove that TFs, Trials, and Giant Monster spawns don't emphasize that team play is the core focuses of a Massivly Multiplayer Online game.

I say this as an avid soloer.
 

 

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

Just because a power is improved to be usable during combat instead of just prior to combat does not negate the "gank" intention of the power. It just means that after people complained, the devs agreed that AS and snipe as strictly combat openers was too limited and so expanded them to be both combat opening gank attacks and mid-combat speed attacks.

That is a potential fair argument, but its essentially an appeal to original intent. I disagree with the often held assumption that original is automatically good. More importantly however I feel that Fast AS ultimately invalidates Slow AS, and that's the problem. I feel like we should all be able to at least agree on the idea that Slow AS should be the best opener in most cases for Stalker. If we do not agree on that then we will have to agree to disagree because there is simply not much of an argument to be had anymore.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It sincerely feels like you and the OP are cherry picking. Or arguing in bad faith.

I cannot speak for the OP obviously though I get the impression that, like a lot of people who pop into the suggestion forums they simply had an idea they wanted to suggest and thought would be an improvement and didn't come prepared to back it up like peer review of a research paper. This forum is very hostile at times, immediately attacking ideas or even dismissing them outright.

As for myself I am in no way cherry picking or arguing in bad faith. Everything I have said has been with the intent of exploring a possible improvement to Stalker play experience, unrelated to actual mechanical performance. If it needs to be nerfed in some way to make playing the AT smoother, I would be fine with that. Every example and argument I have brought forward has been based on my own experience, knowledge, and research. Granted I cant make many definitive statements without spending a lot of time doing real honest to god experimental research, and thus some of my arguments should be taken with a grain of salt. However everything I have said has been based on an authentic attempt to convey and defend my opinion on the matter. If I have given you the impression of bad faith argument, I apologies, and am open to any criticisms you may have for how I can make these same arguments in a more positive and easily understood manner.

[Troo]

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Except the stalker will still be in combat mode and not be able to use long form AS anyway.

 

Quick question: Do you play Stalkers?

 

Placate and the Hide proc can make long AS available nearly on-demand.

 

25 minutes ago, Koopak said:

One could EASILY argue that Fast AS should be nerfed and Slow AS left alone

 

 

just sayin..

 

[Koopak]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

Placate and the Hide proc can make long AS available nearly on-demand.

This as well, i was omitting the proc since its been repeatedly argued that ATs should not be balanced around their AT procs, but id note that Placate slipped my mind because until its relatively recent buff it was worse than Confront in its usefulness. These tools however provide a strong argument that slow AS IS meant to be used in normal combat, which again leads us back to the DPA issue. When Placate + Slow AS, or hide proc + Slow AS is objectively worse than using any other power during hide, that is a problem. Particularly since the proc could trigger if its in any power other than AS unexpectedly and force you into slow AS. Most Stalker builds explicitly try to bypass this by putting the proc in AS.

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Quick question: Do you play Stalkers?

 

Placate and the Hide proc can make long AS available nearly on-demand.

 

 

 

just sayin..

 

Yes, I play stalkers. Stalkers, MMs, and corruptors are my three favorite ATs to play. I play solo. Not quite exclusively as I team roughly once a week. And yes, Placate gives me Hide on demand. Which I use when I hit a boss or EB and he does not oblige me by curling up and immediately dying. Or if I am trying to isolate said boss/EB. Or if my health just nose-dived and I want to get the hell out of dodge without whatever just munched me getting in any parting shots. Or when I'm on a team and the AV just got held by the team so my long form AS can actually build up and land.

[Troo]

@Koopak I get what you are saying.

 

I do feel Placate was already one of the most powerful powers in the game. It completely takes a target out of a fight and sets up automatic crits.

 

Long Assassin's Strike from Hide still automatically crits for ~3x damage doesn't it? Maybe I'm wrong here.

 

If the Stalker is Hidden, Assassin's Strike becomes extremely potent. First of all, if it misses, the Stalker stays Hidden. If it hits, it crits automatically, for almost triple normal damage instead of double. If the target is another player, this bonus damage ignores his resistances. Whether the target survives or is defeated, all nearby non-player enemies (which may include the target itself!) are Demoralized and suffer a small but irresistable ToHit penalty, and occasionally Fear as well, for eight seconds.

 

I accept that I play differently from 'the meta'. I thrive on spike damage.