You are about to do something hard and can only pick one defender...

[Linea]

On 7/5/2022 at 1:20 PM, Mezmera said:

@Linea's stuff is a decent little test for your character but after a certain point it's just masochism and it's no bar that should be used to judge things by.  My Mind dom can just walk through most of those invisibly Mass Confusing mob after mob if I so like so long as I know to be wary of the ambushes there's no real threat to her. 

tldr: I can't 'challenge' confuse specialized Doms without completely obliterating Controllers.

 

CoH Mobs in general are very weak to Confuse, KB/KD, and Fear.  The Devs are fully aware of this and have many more tools to deal with it than AE does.   In 801 only 1 in 16 mobs has any status protection at all, this is a purposeful choice to ensure that 801 is backwards compatible with controllers soloing.  801.6 and above have minimal counter-confuse, but that's likely not enough to effect a well built Confuse specialized Dom. 

[Voltak]

9 minutes ago, Linea said:

tldr: I can't 'challenge' confuse specialized Doms without completely obliterating Controllers.

 

CoH Mobs in general are very weak to Confuse, KB/KD, and Fear.  The Devs are fully aware of this and have many more tools to deal with it than AE does.   In 801 only 1 in 16 mobs has any status protection at all, this is a purposeful choice to ensure that 801 is backwards compatible with controllers soloing.  801.6 and above have minimal counter-confuse, but that's likely not enough to effect a well built Confuse specialized Dom. 

But even in my AE challenges, you and I know that without the EMPTH, the confuse trick would not be enough.  That's also not going to do much vs the Stalker ATs found in AE, including your 801.  Some of them can see you before you see them, then it's lights out. 

[Linea]

  

Quote

 

Angel Hornet EnM/EnA scrapper for my solo runs.

 

SD/(RadM or DarkM) for Tank.  Generally recommend Inv/(RadM or DarkM) as it's much easier to drive, but a little less durable overall.

FF/, EAfn/, Nature/ for Team Support  ... I reccommend /Water with FF, but actually use DP just for fun.

FF/, Time/, for Heavily Armored Support.

 

 

To expand on that.

EAfn is probably the choice.

A Clarion+Special*PBU*FF can incarnate cap the entire team, you want that extra defense.

Nature does a good job and can be more offensive oriented.  EAfn offers better support.

Both FF/ and Time/ can be extremely heavily armored.  If the support is dead, it's not supporting anyone.

 

But, ANY, defender and even any AT with Leadership, has plenty to offer for Hardmode runs.   The assumption for [Insert Stars] Hardmode is that most of the team is built on IOs, built on [Insert Stars] Incarnates, and is running Leadership.

 

You want your 'tank' to be nicely armored behind def/res ddr and rdr, with hp/s support and support in as many other areas as possible.  If it's not an actual Tank AT, then you want to push both def and res to well beyond the incarnate caps.  4-star hardmode can push soft-caps of 75 to 95 (and maybe higher I'm not looking at the tables atm).  You should assume -100 defense debuff, and -200 resist debuff (probably more on the -resist side).  Then you probably need to assume 1-2k sustained dps with 5k dps spikes, and some rare much higher dps spikes.  If you don't know how to handle 5k to the face, you probably don't want to run 4-star because sooner or later that 5k is going to land right upside your head.

 

In the end, pretty much any supported tank can do this and not break a sweat.  But if you neglect the support, don't be surprised if your tank crumples.

 

[Mezmera]

Mass Confusion is the only aggroless aoe confuse control.  Thanks to Domination Mind doms can instantly confuse packs of critters with no blowback to them if they are especially running a high invisibility build.  Then you have things like the Contagious Confusion proc and power boost to maintain a silly amount of control whereas most other control cannot because again they will catch aggro or they will be spending all their time single confusing target after target. 

 

I can walk through a lot of these AE missions on my Stealth/Burnout build with ease, just like on Relentless Aeon.  The only catch to combat this aoe confuse tactic is to give critters a breakfree ability like vengeance that the Gold Brickers employ but you can still reapply another round of control so as to not overdo it and neuter all control like on the ITF when those Cimerorans shout and are uncontrollable except for slows.  So on @Linea's arcs if there isn't a manufactured difficulty slider in a whole pack of 16 AVs then the Mind dom can easily go through these with groupings of EBs and less. 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Mezmera

[Voltak]

47 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Mass Confusion is the only aggroless aoe confuse control.  Thanks to Domination Mind doms can instantly confuse packs of critters with no blowback to them if they are especially running a high invisibility build. 

Elite Bosses
These are not bosses.  Enough said.  Then you have to deal with enemies that you can't see.    Then you have to deal about enemies with +perception and who are able to see you in invisibility. 

Again, let's stop the theories.  This is the time for those with actual experience and planty of hands on in these runs need to come here and share from actual experience. 
Actual experience says that support to keep the team alive, direct support like buffs/heals/absorbs. from Elec Affinity or Nature, they reign supreme at the higher difficulty echelons.  

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Voltak

[Mezmera]

3 minutes ago, Voltak said:

Elite Bosses
These are not bosses.  Enough said.  Then you have to deal with enemies that you can't see.    Then you have to deal about enemies with +perception and who are able to see you in invisibility. 

Again, let's stop the theories.  This is the time for those with actual experience and planty of hands on in these runs need to come here and share from actual experience. 
Actual experience says that support to keep the team alive, direct support like buffs/heals/absorbs. from Elec Affinity or Nature, they reign supreme at the higher difficulty echelons.  

 

 

I've tested my dom on these arcs.  No theories here.  Those invisible enemies are still grouped with the other enemies and are just as likely to get hit with a power boosted double applying Contagious Confusion proc'd Mass Confusion which will also instantly control the Elite Bosses.

 

Seeing how EV is back how about you ask how my Mind dom does in the Relentless Aeon since he's seen it up close and personal.  That way he can reaffirm my "theories". 

[Voltak]

31 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

I've tested my dom on these arcs.  No theories here.  Those invisible enemies are still grouped with the other enemies and are just as likely to get hit with a power boosted double applying Contagious Confusion proc'd Mass Confusion which will also instantly control the Elite Bosses.

 

Seeing how EV is back how about you ask how my Mind dom does in the Relentless Aeon since he's seen it up close and personal.  That way he can reaffirm my "theories". 

Right, sure.  I have done plenty , hundreds of 801 runs in maps full of EBs, no bosses, and AVs as well. 
You are stating theories. 
Log your Dom, I will set the 801, 7 minimum, or higher, come test your Dom.  I want to see what you are claiming have done. 
You think your stealth can survive those enemies with +perception?
You think you can Mass confuse your way through these EBs ?  Solo?  
Right.... You thought you be capable of things before and I seen what happens. 
Prove it, or it did not happen nor will it happen. 

Remember you tell me that you can do things, then you can't do them. 

Then you tell me that I cannot do things, but I show you I do them.  
Like the Carnies

Like you also told me I can't solo the LR SF at 54x8, no insps, and... I did that too. 

So, show me what you claim you are able to do. 

Otherwise, it's a no go. 

This is about you dom being able to solo these 801s at the highest tiers, specifically your claim that you can solo these Elite Bosses by yourself with Mass Confusion.  
Don't change the goal post.  
 

[Mezmera]

5 minutes ago, Voltak said:

Right, sure.  I have done plenty , hundreds of 801 runs in maps full of EBs, no bosses, and AVs as well. 
You are stating theories. 
Log your Dom, I will set the 801, 7 minimum, or higher, come test your Dom.  I want to see what you are claiming have done. 
You think your stealth can survive those enemies with +perception?
You think you can Mass confuse your way through these EBs ?  Solo?  
Right.... You thought you be capable of things before and I seen what happens. 
Prove it, or it did not happen nor will it happen. 

Remember you tell me that you can do things, then you can't do them. 

Then you tell me that I cannot do things, but I show you I do them.  
Like the Carnies

Like you also told me I can't solo the LR SF at 54x8, no insps, and... I did that too. 

So, show me what you claim you are able to do. 

Otherwise, it's a no go. 

This is about you dom being able to solo these 801s at the highest tiers, specifically your claim that you can solo these Elite Bosses by yourself with Mass Confusion.  
Don't change the goal post.  
 

 

Let it go...

[Voltak]

4 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Let it go...

Again, one thing is theory, the other is practice and experience. 
Some people talk from experience, others talk based on... yeah.  
So, from experience with the higher difficulty content, and as more and more degrees of difficulty arise, the sets mentioned (Nature and Elec Affinity)  are the top for support to keep the team alive and be able to do dmg, or debuffs and so on.

Those without the experience just don't have the same weight when providing the answers to what the OP is asking for. 

So, let it go...

Edited July 7, 2022 by Voltak

[Mezmera]

Just now, Voltak said:

Again, one thing is theory, the other is practice and experience. 
Some people talk from experience, others talk based on... yeah.  
So, from experience with the higher difficulty content, and as more and more degrees of difficulty arise, the sets mentioned are the top for support to keep the team alive and be able to do dmg, or debuffs and so on. 

Those without the experience just don't have the same weight when providing the answers to what the OP is asking for. 

So, let it go...

 

I've run tons of Aeon with EV.  Easy for you to qualify should you want to know instead of disbelieving in powers you have no familiarity with by calling others crackpots that have plenty of diverse game experience outside of the limited scope that you know.  

 

Again, let it go before this thread gets more trimming since this is getting childish again.

[Voltak]

2 hours ago, Mezmera said:

 

I've run tons of Aeon with EV.  Easy for you to qualify should you want to know instead of disbelieving in powers you have no familiarity with by calling others crackpots that have plenty of diverse game experience outside of the limited scope that you know.  

 

Again, let it go before this thread gets more trimming since this is getting childish again.

I am simply stating the facts and qualifying that with experience in the issue. 

At the highest of difficult content, AEON is no where near what AE has, it is far more important for the team to have the buffs/heals/absorbs than it is to have a trick arrow in the team. 

Those of us who have done this have stated this already.  Trick Arrow or not in the team will be wrecked without those Nature or Electric Affinity or Thermal types of support. 

Please stop arguing about this. 

[TungstenShark]

4 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Again, let it go before this thread gets more trimming since this is getting childish again.

 

2 hours ago, Voltak said:

Please stop arguing about this.

Or, you know...you could both stop arguing about it and move to something more constructive and beneficial. Just saying...it's a possibility. You both have considerable knowledge to share...this seems a something-less-than-good waste of time and experience.

Edited July 8, 2022 by TungstenShark

[Voltak]

56 minutes ago, TungstenShark said:

 

Or, you know...you could both stop arguing about it and move to something more constructive and beneficial. Just saying...it's a possibility. You both have considerable knowledge to share...this seems a something-less-than-good waste of time and experience.

Check your in-box so you have some context.  Believe me, I really did not honestly foresee this.   I apologize to you.  
 

[paco6381]

18 hours ago, Ankhammon said:

Great call!

I been singing the praises of chem rounds since before live went bye bye. I was using it with a Naff at the time to great effect.

 

My first thought for TA was to dbl down on -tohit with Dark Blast. Adding in a couple hundred -tohit percent would prolly help a bit against the purple patch.

 

 

And to whomever said throw in acid arrow to boost flash arrow, bravo! I never even looked for that, but I see it now.

Gonna need to slightly rearrange my fire order against big game.

 

 

FYI, I don't believe you need a specific order.  Both debuffs will apply, regardless.

[Blackfeather]

I'm kind of curious: given the answers here, what'd be the least helpful powerset for a Defender to have in these kinds of missions, and why?

[Psyonico]

7 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

I'm kind of curious: given the answers here, what'd be the least helpful powerset for a Defender to have in these kinds of missions, and why?

 

Probably force field.  Just about everyone builds for capped defenses anyway, so FF really only brings knockback to the table.

[Voltak]

1 hour ago, Psyonico said:

 

Probably force field.  Just about everyone builds for capped defenses anyway, so FF really only brings knockback to the table.

@Linea and myself would respectfully disagree or say this is wrong.  
Let me explain -  a power boosted Force Field from a Defender, even with Clarion Radial T4, is going to provide a super level of defense with so much buffer that it becomes hard for you to be defense debuffed to dangerous degree since the team, before the bubbles are applied, is already at soft cap defenses.   

He can get you to the hard cap defense level almost by himself. 
And, also it provides endurance drain resistance which abound in these upper echelon challenges. 

[Psyonico]

To be fair, least helpful did not mean not helpful.

[Voltak]

1 minute ago, Psyonico said:

To be fair, least helpful did not mean not helpful.

I totally understand.   Also, by him or herself, the team is still needing some other forms of buff as the difficulty climbs. 

[Doomguide2005]

17 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

To be fair, least helpful did not mean not helpful.

Overall I'd say it comes down to the build more than anything.  Probably nearly a case of the least but well built is better than the best poorly built.  Any defender purely from Leadership buffs is ahead of the game.

[Blackfeather]

7 hours ago, Psyonico said:

Probably force field.  Just about everyone builds for capped defenses anyway, so FF really only brings knockback to the table.

 

That makes sense - it sounds like the most useful things a support powerset can bring in difficult content is Absorb, healing, and resistance boosts from what I've been reading of the thread, especially if they're the only one on the team.

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

 

That makes sense - it sounds like the most useful things a support powerset can bring in difficult content is Absorb, healing, and resistance boosts from what I've been reading of the thread, especially if they're the only one on the team.

     I'd say if it can be buffed you want more of it.  And I'd definitely add defense and to hit to that list.  The ASF adds considerable +To Hit and +Defense to the base values, then adds incarnate base to hit (another +14 effectively) so unless your idea of 'soft cap' involves numbers like 85 or 90% instead of 45% you're already quite a bit squishier.  Now prepare to get nailed by multiple Melt Armor debuffs (-25% def and -30% resists before the purple patch).

 

Edit:  And that's just the ASF, worse stuff awaits in AE.

 

     

 

     

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[Voltak]

On 7/5/2022 at 5:11 PM, Apparition said:

 

Yeah.  I think you and Mezmera are talking about different levels of difficulty.  The Vanguard heroes fight in Relentless ASF is difficult, no doubt about it.  But there are missions in AE that put that fight to shame.  Any team that doesn’t have an Electrical Affinity, Nature, or Thermal support character will be obliterated.  Trick Arrow character on the team or otherwise.

So, a very good situation arose when we tried to do a perfect run of the ITF. 
We wanted to make the run as difficult as possible while making sure we:

1. Had access to all our powers up to level 50. 
2. We did not have any incarnates available
3. Our enemies would spawn at +4, +5, and +6 levels above us. 
4. We disabled all inspirations, temps, p2w
5. If we had a team wipe or all members of team died, then we would disband. 
6. We had a maximum of 6 players in the team

It was a team of defenders and corruptors. 

We had, among other great stuff in the team, 1) Elec Affinity Defender ( that was me),   2) One Nature Defender (played by @Rev 3) Trick Arrow played by @midnight 4) Kinetics Corruptor 5) Cold and 6) I can't remember the sixth person.  

We were cruising and doing very well during Parts 1, 2, and 3.   
Starting Part 4, well, four team members thought or felt so safe and confident, that they headed right away to face the group of Rommy  AV and the Nictus AVs. 
For those of you who don't know, the Nictus AV is auto-hit, they DO NOT MISS at all.  When they spawn +5 or above , they hit tremendously hard. 

Well, those who went ahead they died, to include the Trick Arrow.  Our perfect run was ruined.    A minute or two after those those deaths, the Nature Defender sends me a private message.  
He said:  "If only they would have waited for either you or I to load into the map and catch up, they would have lived".  

I told him that I was thinking the same exact thing. 

If the Electric Affinity or the Nature Defender would have been there, no one would have died.  The debuffers could not do much to save anyone, especially when these AVs are +5 or higher. 

 

[paco6381]

5 minutes ago, Voltak said:

He said:  "If only they would have waited for either you or I to load into the map and catch up, they would have lived".  

I told him that I was thinking the same exact thing. 

Objection! Conjecture.

[roleki]

I'm a huge fan of Trick Arrow, both the original version and the new amped-up version, but personally I find it's too slow to take the place of an EA in actual difficult content.  Not slow as in arcana time, but slow in the sense that you have to fire off four or five separate debuffs before you're 'set' for a spell.  That takes an eternity when there's NOT instant death raining around you.  EA 'wins' by delivering immediate relief all over the map, over and over and over.  The fact that it carries a PBAoE break free that you can fire off every 5s or so doesn't hurt; Trick Arrow's EMP arrow is awesome, but that 300s recharge makes it almost situational.

 

Don't get me wrong, TA is fantastic - I use them to melt GMs and AVs all the time - but if I look around and see the team is lacking in support, I grab an EA.