KB to KD toggle

[Rudra]

You are willfully misconstruing my statement. The buffs that have been added were not existing procs that people are demanding be incorporated for free. This request is like someone asking to have KD, a hold, or disorient added to attacks like Slash from the Claws set. You can already do that. You just have to slot the proc for it. I am completely against taking any proc and automatically incorporating it into the power sets. You want a proc that is already available for those powers to affect those powers? You slot the proc.

[Bill Z Bubba]

26 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You are willfully misconstruing my statement. The buffs that have been added were not existing procs that people are demanding be incorporated for free. This request is like someone asking to have KD, a hold, or disorient added to attacks like Slash from the Claws set. You can already do that. You just have to slot the proc for it. I am completely against taking any proc and automatically incorporating it into the power sets. You want a proc that is already available for those powers to affect those powers? You slot the proc.

 

That's fair.

 

KB is numerically inferior to KD. Sure, it can be fun to watch when one is in the mood for it, but that's a different topic.

 

Since I am a balance junkie, ok, there should be a cost to turn KB to KD because it makes the power a superior version of itself. Ridding my emp/nrg defender of KB surely made her vastly better than she was.

 

Guess I'm now on the side of nope for the toggle idea.

[thunderforce]

On 8/7/2022 at 10:27 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Since I am a balance junkie, ok, there should be a cost to turn KB to KD because it makes the power a superior version of itself. Ridding my emp/nrg defender of KB surely made her vastly better than she was.

I've proposed above two answers to the supposed balance issue; make the toggle not work on powers where it's felt to be overly effective, or make the "KB to KD" IO into a "make this power respect the KB to KD toggle" IO (which I would be fine with even though I would then be using a slot to have less fun sometimes). A third option would be to reduce the damage of a power having its KB suppressed (by the toggle not an IO) by whatever amount is felt necessary.

 

If it's really felt there's a serious balance issue here - which for the sake of argument I'm willing to suppose there is - it seems it could easily be addressed.

[MsSmart]

Hi:

 

I support the idea of an option, under Options/General .... Toggle KB to KD

 

I think it was a poorly executed idea, while it was a good think for soloing blasters, it was the stupidest thing for melee folks, where there most powerful melee attack sent the mob away and thus saving its life, for the melee could not follow up, and by the time they get to their target, its already up, and because it is the computer, they get to attack first, talking about adding insult over injury.

 

Then you have the PBAOE and range guys with knockback, terrible situation when working with groups, makes it nearly impossible for the tank to keep aggro for starters, and other PBAO or AOE folks who do not have KB are made useless because all the mobs are dispersed, very annoying.

 

So I support this thread very much

 

Sue

 

[thunderforce]

On 8/7/2022 at 9:48 PM, Rudra said:

You are willfully misconstruing my statement. The buffs that have been added were not existing procs that people are demanding be incorporated for free. This request is like someone asking to have KD, a hold, or disorient added to attacks like Slash from the Claws set. You can already do that. You just have to slot the proc for it. I am completely against taking any proc and automatically incorporating it into the power sets. You want a proc that is already available for those powers to affect those powers? You slot the proc.

The result of this is that if some useful and obvious feature which should be available to everyone is first implemented as a proc, you will oppose any later recognition that it was a useful and obvious feature that should be available to everyone. This seems unfortunate, essentially saying "if a mistake has been made, we must continue to make it forever".

[Riverdusk]

On 8/2/2022 at 10:15 AM, Talsiar said:

My understanding (based off inference, I have by no means looked at code and am not an authority on how CoH works) is that buffs to a character, such as Damage Bonus, To Hit Bonus, Recharge Bonus prior to MM pets ignoring recharge enhancements, defense bonuses, resistances and the like, would not transfer to MM pets.  Similar to how if thermal radiation hits an MM with Forge, none of the minions are getting the damage/toHit buffs because that's done as an effect to the player, not as an enhancement to the power.  Likewise, I don't know that any power with a psuedo pet would actually get the effects of that toggle, because the pseudopet itself wouldn't have the toggle running, so my assumption is that Bonfire wouldn't actually have reduced KB anyway.

 

I guess you could make the toggle an AoE similar to Supremacy, affecting only MM's owned henchmen (and other spawned pet entities like time bomb, trip mine, but exclude from bonfire?), with an exceedingly large range and no LoS check or something?  Or maybe coded similar to spirit ward, a toggle that maintains the buff on all MM pets that were nearby when activated.  I'm not sure, but both feel like square peg -> round hole solutions, it'll work if someone bashes it enough but it's not going to be pretty when it's done.

 

You could make it act like a global enhancement the same way as the incarnate alpha slot (so a global reduction in knock).  That would affect pets just like it currently affects MM pets already (alpha musculature definitely improves their damage for example).  My knowledge is limited of course, but sure looks like to me the tech is already there.

 

Not that I'm advocating for the idea one way or another.  I have mixed feelings about it.

 

Probably the best idea I've seen so far is just improving the knockback IO sets or adding a new one that also has a knockback to knockdown piece but has more normal enhancement values that don't include knockback enhancements.  Why does a set that has a piece that negates knockback also have a bunch of enhancements that increase it at the same time anyway?    By 6 slotting it you negate the majority of your own set's enhancements.  It seems counter-intuitive.  With a new set you'd still have a "tax" of sorts, in that the 6th piece is still the conversion piece instead of being able to put a damage proc there.  But it'd feel more natural and maybe you'd get a decent 6th slot set bonus out of it at least, as well as decent enhancement values to accuracy, damage, etc. instead of nerfed ones.

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Riverdusk

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, thunderforce said:

The result of this is that if some useful and obvious feature which should be available to everyone is first implemented as a proc, you will oppose any later recognition that it was a useful and obvious feature that should be available to everyone. This seems unfortunate, essentially saying "if a mistake has been made, we must continue to make it forever".

Given the already presented advantage of converting KB to KD, yes. It is not a mistake it is the way it is. I agree mistakes should be fixed. I do not agree with getting an obvious advantage for free and calling it "fixing a mistake".

 

Edit: And yes, I will always lend more credence to the mechanics of a situation. Mechanics can be checked. Mechanics can be measured. Mechanics can be proven. A person's claim that a preferred state is a disadvantage as opposed to the proven mechanical advantage cannot be checked, measured, or proven. Do players' feelings on a subject matter? Yes. Should they be accounted for? Yes. Does that override the provable mechanics? No.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Rudra

[Rudra]

On 8/23/2022 at 5:56 AM, thunderforce said:

A third option would be to reduce the damage of a power having its KB suppressed (by the toggle not an IO) by whatever amount is felt necessary.

The problem with this option is that if it is implemented, you will have a LOT of angry players once they try it. "What?! Why should I have to suffer reduced damage to benefit from doing KD instead of KB?!"

 

On 8/23/2022 at 5:56 AM, thunderforce said:

make the toggle not work on powers where it's felt to be overly effective

I could actually accept this. Until players start demanding that the KD toggle also affect powers like Tornado and Bonfire because it is 'unfair to them to have to slot the procs in those powers but not others'.

 

On 8/23/2022 at 5:56 AM, thunderforce said:

make the "KB to KD" IO into a "make this power respect the KB to KD toggle" IO

I don't understand this proposed solution. Doesn't the proc inherently make the power respect it? Okay, I see what you are saying. That still leads back to the situation with the toggle only affecting specific powers.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Rudra

[PeregrineFalcon]

I feel like this entire KB > KD issue could be solved by simply adding either Accuracy or Damage to the IO that changes KB >KD.

 

That way it could be slotted in place of an ordinary Accuracy or Damage Enhancement and nothing would lost in terms of slotting.

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I feel like this entire KB > KD issue could be solved by simply adding either Accuracy or Damage to the IO that changes KB >KD.

 

That way it could be slotted in place of an ordinary Accuracy or Damage Enhancement and nothing would lost in terms of slotting.

Works for me.

[thunderforce]

19 hours ago, Rudra said:

Given the already presented advantage of converting KB to KD, yes. It is not a mistake it is the way it is. I agree mistakes should be fixed. I do not agree with getting an obvious advantage for free and calling it "fixing a mistake".

As discussed (the time you said you were done, which I predicted wouldn't be the case, and here we are) it's not an advantage to me. Nothing has changed since then.

 

You've also dodged from the general to the specific here. You said "I am completely against taking any proc and automatically incorporating it into the power sets"; it's clearly possible to imagine a situation where a feature is first added as a proc but it becomes clear it should then be given to everyone, in a way similar to how Fitness became inherent. Why you would be "completely against" that is unclear but it doesn't seem like a sensible basis to make design decisions.

19 hours ago, Rudra said:

I will always lend more credence to the mechanics of a situation. Mechanics can be checked. Mechanics can be measured. Mechanics can be proven.

Just because something can be quantified doesn't mean it is the dominant factor. For example, suppose I offer you a penny not to comment in threads after you say you are done; now that penny is a quantifiable thing, whereas how you would feel about that is not, but nevertheless I doubt you will take my penny.

17 hours ago, Rudra said:

What?! Why should I have to suffer reduced damage to benefit from doing KD instead of KB?!"

Aside from the factor that any change to any MMO of any kind will consume someone with outrage, I don't see that as a likely scenario. The existing option of slotting a proc wouldn't go away, and it _already_ consumes a slot which could otherwise be used to increase damage.

17 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

That way it could be slotted in place of an ordinary Accuracy or Damage Enhancement and nothing would lost in terms of slotting.

This does not address the difficulty discussed in the OP - KB lovers who are willing to turn it off as and when they are teamed with KB haters.

 

(It also sounds rather like the "free advantage" which apparently would pose an overwhelming balance issue if the slot currently used for the proc could do something else.)

[MsSmart]

19 hours ago, Rudra said:

Works for me.

It certainly does not for me, it cost a very valuable IO slot with their beneficial benefits, to undo a game mechanic that is in many conditions perceived as a pest that is not of the player's making or choice.

 

Sue

[TheZag]

Just use a second build where it has the KB > KD slotted and switch between them as needed.

 

/selectbuild 1

/selectbuild 2

 

You dont have to visit a trainer and can switch anywhere including in missions,  in combat and on task forces.

 

[Rudra]

They don't like the alternate build solution either.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, MsSmart said:

It certainly does not for me, it cost a very valuable IO slot with their beneficial benefits, to undo a game mechanic that is in many conditions perceived as a pest that is not of the player's making or choice.

 

Sue

If the proc is improved with accuracy or damage components added, quite possibly removing the difference in those stats between a knockback set and a damage set, then what very valuable benefit are you losing?

[Rudra]

And @thunderforce, I don't have some tracker telling me what threads have so exasperated me that I walked away. I still read all the threads, so yes, if the thread goes on for long enough or if it is resurrected after a while, I will be back. Pretty much every time.

[TheZag]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

They don't like the alternate build solution either.

 

Haha,  no argument from me there.

 

The solution for this problem already exists though.  I doubt a dev will be convinced it needs more solutions.

 

[thunderforce]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

And @thunderforce, I don't have some tracker telling me what threads have so exasperated me that I walked away. I still read all the threads, so yes, if the thread goes on for long enough or if it is resurrected after a while, I will be back. Pretty much every time.

Which is one reason even though the penny I'm offering you not to is quantifiable, the question of what you do isn't dominated by the quantifiable elements of the situation.

2 hours ago, TheZag said:

The solution for this problem already exists though.

I'm not aware of any existing solution to the problem discussed in the OP (I like KB, I'm willing to turn it off when teamed with people who don't, it's not really sensible to fiddle with unslotters every time). "Why not have a complete second set of enhancements and use up one of your limited supply of Multiple Builds slots?" is not as impractical as "why not become a developer and fix it?" (as discussed on page 4 of the thread), but it's up there.

Edited August 26, 2022 by thunderforce

[Rudra]

If someone is going to pay me to do something or not do something, which is going to take a helluva lot more than a single penny by the way, then I am going to put in the effort to abide by it. Such as by making a tracker. This still has no bearing on the actual discussion though.

 

As for existing solutions? Unslotters and alternate builds are the options previously mentioned in this thread that are available for those that want to be able to move back and forth between doing KB and doing KD. Alternate builds are the more expensive option out the gate, but precludes the need to constantly unslot and re-slot enhancements, and is overall cheaper in the long run. (Players on these forums are asking for an inf' sink anyway. There you go, an inf' sink, help someone make their alternate builds.)

 

The arguments in favor of this thread have progressively revealed some players simply want the free mechanical advantage. Such as when @PeregrineFalcon suggested the Sudden Acceleration set add an accuracy or damage component to the KB to KD proc. That would boost the set to most likely favorably compete with the damage sets in performance. And yet the argument is still that it is somehow going to be a "tax" without any explanation as to how improving the set to make it more competitive would still render it as one. The set bonuses are already competitive. In some regards, superior. (In other regards, inferior.) So improving the proc to have either an accuracy component, a damage component, or heaven forbid both, should make the set a desirable choice for everyone. Especially with the vectored knock system the devs have mentioned elsewhere. And that is still not an acceptable fix for some.

 

 

6 hours ago, thunderforce said:

Aside from the factor that any change to any MMO of any kind will consume someone with outrage, I don't see that as a likely scenario.

As for this comment, the willingness to cause anyone to rage about a change you want is beyond self-serving. This is an MMO. It is not the @thunderforce game. It is not the @Rudra game. It is not the anyone in particular game. So all changes have to be measured against as large a part of the player base as possible. That includes unintentional consequences of any changes. Which is why (hopefully) changes spend a lot of time on the beta server.

 

Also, you can already search through the forums and see where the same or similar powers working differently between sets has caused players to pop on the forums and demand it be made all uniform. Case in point: Trip Mines. (Which I would also like to see have the interrupt from the version that still has it removed.) And that is without any perceived, let alone actual, loss of damage. So the proposal for a toggle that only affects some powers and not others will be perceived as unacceptably random by the player base. Making powers do less damage to use a toggle will be viewed as the devs punishing the player base for no reason and have an as yet unknown proportion of the player base up in arms, or possibly even leaving the game in anger.

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to remove redundant, incomplete line.

[thunderforce]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

If someone is going to pay me to do something or not do something, which is going to take a helluva lot more than a single penny by the way, then I am going to put in the effort to abide by it. Such as by making a tracker. This still has no bearing on the actual discussion though.

It does; it illustrates that just because one aspect of a question can be quantified doesn't mean it dominates.

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

As for existing solutions?

I'm looking for _practical_ solutions.

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

The arguments in favor of this thread have progressively revealed some players simply want the free mechanical advantage. Such as when @PeregrineFalcon suggested the Sudden Acceleration set add an accuracy or damage component to the KB to KD proc

Which you said "works for you", oddly, but I don't think it's revealed any such thing; I think some players also recognise that this supposed advantage is essentially trivial on the scale of the game's balance issues.

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

As for this comment, the willingness to cause anyone to rage about a change you want is beyond self-serving.

I'm not sure I can apprehend the confusion of ideas on your part here. _Any_ non-trivial change will annoy someone; fact of MMO life. As such, no change can be rejected on the grounds that _someone_ won't like it.

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Making powers do less damage to use a toggle will be viewed as the devs punishing the player base for no reason

Aside from the aforementioned someone, I don't see any reason why any sensible person would regard adding an _additional_ option for such powers as "punishment".

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, thunderforce said:

Which you said "works for you", oddly

What is so odd about? Obviously, I cannot speak for anyone other than myself.

 

2 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

I'm not sure I can apprehend the confusion of ideas on your part here. _Any_ non-trivial change will annoy someone; fact of MMO life. As such, no change can be rejected on the grounds that _someone_ won't like it

Neither does that mean that a change should be blindly implemented because of the inevitably of others becoming upset. The goal is to upset as few as possible while improving the game as much as possible.

3 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

I don't see any reason why any sensible person would regard adding an _additional_ option for such powers as "punishment".

Because taking a loss in one aspect of the game, in this case damage, for the sake of another option, is typically regarded as being punishment for using that option.

[thunderforce]

It's odd because until now any kind of "free advantage" was terrible.

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Neither does that mean that a change should be blindly implemented because of the inevitably of others becoming upset.

That's a really obvious straw man.

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Because taking a loss in one aspect of the game, in this case damage, for the sake of another option, is typically regarded as being punishment for using that option.

This really doesn't make any sense. If I slot a Devastation Change for Hold rather than a damage proc, is that punishment? Did people leave the game when that proc was implemented?

[espectro]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

It is not the @Rudra game.

 

Is it the Rudra forum? Are you a dev or somthing cuz I roll up and see a big long list of fat purple Rs. And you say you leavin then you come back. It's like the Exorcist or something up in here. 

 

Thunderforce wants the TOGGLE. ME TOO. It's like Santa, i've been good so please give me a good toggle. You write a letter to Santa--Devs and try to send it. But some dude is yelling at you cuz he think you don't need a toggle. Dang mang.

 

 

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, thunderforce said:

That's a really obvious straw man.

You're really reaching with this one.

 

1 minute ago, thunderforce said:

This really doesn't make any sense. If I slot a Devastation Change for Hold rather than a damage proc, is that punishment? Did people leave the game when that proc was implemented?

Slotting a proc, which is the solution I've been saying to use, is not the same thing as simply opening a menu and toggling a setting. Toggling a setting that imposes a functional downgrade on a power is the concern I am talking about. Not slotting a proc that adds a function to a power, is part of a set, and builds on that set's other enhancements for improved performance.

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, espectro said:

Is it the Rudra forum?

No.

 

7 minutes ago, espectro said:

Are you a dev or somthing cuz I roll up and see a big long list of fat purple Rs.

I tend to have a lot to say about the things I care about.

 

7 minutes ago, espectro said:

And you say you leavin then you come back.

As previously stated, I do not record/track what threads exacerbated me enough to leave. So eventually, I will always be back because I keep reading all the threads. Including the ones the that frustrate me.

 

Is this post your way of telling me to get off the forums?

 

7 minutes ago, espectro said:

Thunderforce wants the TOGGLE.

And we have been arguing about why that is a bad idea. (I was going to say discussing, but let's be honest here.)

 

7 minutes ago, espectro said:

ME TOO.

Great. I'm one voice. The more of you that want it, the more likely it is to be incorporated. Never a guarantee though.

 

7 minutes ago, espectro said:

But some dude is yelling at you cuz he think you don't need a toggle. Dang mang.

*sigh* Welcome to the forums where people will debate every suggestion made. I just happen to be a more vocal person than others.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Rudra