AE Vet Levels -or- Empyrean to Reward Merits

[ShardWarrior]

12 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

The "problem" that I think they are trying to solve is that more and more players are doing nothing but AE and that some players are doing AE AFK 24/7 on multiple accounts and reaping tremendous rewards in Inf, Emp Merits, and (since Emp merits are convertible) reward merits. 

 

There is not much they can do to prevent that short of shutting the game off.  AFK farmers running 24/7 across multiple accounts are going to earn way more inf than the average player regardless of playing in AE or not.

 

13 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

If you can get everything you need in AE and faster than anywhere else, why do anything else?

 

This is subjective to the individual.  It all depends on what rewards they are after.  You can farm special enhancements and reward merits fairly quickly by speed running TFs.  Only speaking for myself here, but I farm only when I am short on inf or want to boost alts a few levels.  Most of the time I will run non-AE content.  It gets boring farming all the time.

[Troo]

6 minutes ago, Krimson said:

The way it is right now, just by playing regular content such as radio missions or story arcs, you will get enough threads and Empyrean Merits to get all of your Incarnates to Tier 3 by Vet Level 12

 

note: above is without making any mistakes. one reason incarnate rewards are front loaded is that those new to the incarnate system can make mistakes.

[ShardWarrior]

10 minutes ago, Krimson said:

You need 46 Empyrean Merits to get an Incarnate to Tier 4.  That is 276 Empyrean Merits total, or just under what you will eventually get at Vet Level 48. Cut this in half, and by Vet level 99, you will have 210 Empyrean Merits which will be enough to get FOUR Tier 4 Incarnates and a bit of change. 

 

Thus cutting Empyrean Merit rewards in half would completely eliminate the ability to complete Incarnates by just running regular content. Then if you want to complete Incarnates, you will have to do iTrials, TFs, or DA content and you have no choice. 

 

Fair enough.  Just seems to me that the goal is to get more people to do "normal/right" content as the general complaint from the "normal/right" content crowd is too many people are spending too much time in AE. 

 

Personally, I do not see having to run a few iTrials or DA arcs here and there to be that big of a deal, however I freely admit everyone is different.  As I said, I never said this was a perfect idea. 

[Bionic_Flea]

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

There is not much they can do to prevent that short of shutting the game off.

 

There are all sorts of things that they could do short of shutting off the game.  This patch has just shown us a few.  I am confident that not everyone will like all the things they could do to curb certain undesired behaviors.

 

I agree that every player does what they like.  But many players do what is fastest, or easiest, or most efficient.  Right now, AE fire farming is all 3. 

 

If the trend is that players are spending the majority of their time in AE and that trend continues to grow, at what point do we just have one giant AE and forget about all these empty zones?

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Bionic_Flea said:

There are all sorts of things that they could do short of shutting off the game.  This patch has just shown us a few.  I am confident that not everyone will like all the things they could do to curb certain undesired behaviors.

 

Just being honest, I do not see any of what is being done here forcing people out of AE to run more "normal/right" content.  People who enjoy farming are still going to farm or continue to solo.  Were XP and inf to be removed from AE or AE removed entirely, those same people would just go back to farming the old missions.  They are going to find the next most efficient way to farm influence and/or XP.

 

3 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

If the trend is that players are spending the majority of their time in AE and that trend continues to grow, at what point do we just have one giant AE and forget about all these empty zones?

 

Most players spending their time in AE is definitely not the case from what I can see.  I play almost every day and see requests in LFG for all kinds of non-AE content.  All weekend long I saw plenty of advertisements for TFs and story arcs advertised on Excelsior.  I formed a few SBB runs and TFs myself and had no problem filling.  We had two teams on a league running Synapse on Saturday.  I cannot speak to other servers, however what I see on Excelsior and Torchbearer does not line up with what is being said regarding the majority of players just staying in AE.

 

 

[Troo]

 

Well the path after most everyone is in AE most of the time would likely go first to instant level 50s and then to all zones level 50 or non-level. But those are different topics.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Troo

[Troo]

4 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

next most efficient way

 

this is likely okay.

[Marbing]

1 minute ago, Krimson said:

Oh yeah, mistakes were made. My second 50 finally fully Incarnated around Vet Level 63.

I feel your pain.

 

9 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Just seems to me that the goal is to get more people to do "normal/right"

The goal is to eliminate all rewards (that aren’t cosmetic) from being in one easy place in the game. I doubt the devs care so much which mission or missions you do outside of AE to fill the gap this will create. They just don’t want this to turn into AE of Heroes. 

 

12 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I agree that every player does what they like.  But many players do what is fastest, or easiest, or most efficient.  Right now, AE fire farming is all 3. 

^This 100%
 

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

They are going to find the next most efficient way to farm influence and/or XP.

Good! I’d encourage that actually! 🙂

 

6 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Most players spending their time in AE is definitely not the case from what I can see. 

Maybe not right now, idk, but as the game moves forward I believe the Devs are concerned of this trend and thus want to create a solution now to save the future.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Marbing said:

The goal is to eliminate all rewards (that aren’t cosmetic) from being in one easy place in the game. I doubt the devs care so much which mission or missions you do outside of AE to fill the gap this will create. They just don’t want this to turn into AE of Heroes. 

 

Once again, removing AE entirely does not solve this problem.  All it does is replace "AE of Heroes" with "Portal Farm of Heroes" or "Radio Mission Farm of Heroes".  Farmers who spend all their time farming are not going to start doing TF content with others. 

 

3 minutes ago, Marbing said:

Good! I’d encourage that actually! 🙂

 

If that means moving out of AE back to the old portal missions, honestly what is the difference? 

[Marbing]

4 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Once again, removing AE entirely does not solve this problem.  All it does is replace "AE of Heroes" with "Portal Farm of Heroes" or "Radio Mission Farm of Heroes".  Farmers who spend all their time farming are not going to start doing TF content with others

Still, solves the problem they are seeing. Remember we are talking about Reward Merits, not XP 1-50. AE will still be the best for that, they are moving reward merits out. That is all. Thus, not everything will be all in one place.

 

 

 

[Astralock]

4 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

If that means moving out of AE back to the old portal missions, honestly what is the difference? 

 

• You actually have to play the game to get said mission.
• There’s more inherent risk involved as the mission could be accidentally completed, especially if you invite Joe Schmoe along.
• Greater exposure to the game world outside of Atlas Park and Pocket D for those invited along.
• There’s also more risk in that the mobs are not crafted by players.

[ShardWarrior]

Just now, Marbing said:

Still, solves the problem they are seeing. Remember we are talking about Reward Merits, not XP 1-50. AE will still be the best for that, they are moving reward merits out. That is all. Thus, not everything will be all in one place.

 

Whether people are farming in AE or a Portal mission, the result is the same.  Farmers running across multiple accounts can and still would earn inf faster than your average player and can buy merits with excess inf if they wanted to. 

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

If you can get everything you need in AE and faster than anywhere else, why do anything else?

 

Fun? Every time I read a comment like this, I wonder if it's a tacit admission that the general gameplay isn't engaging.

[Coyotedancer]

Just now, battlewraith said:

 

Fun? Every time I read a comment like this, I wonder if it's a tacit admission that the general gameplay isn't engaging.

 

Heaven forbid anyone actually admit that hunting down 50 DE fungus monsters and then taking their lunch money to Azuria might not actually be fun... 😝 

[ShardWarrior]

Just now, Astralock said:

• You actually have to play the game to get said mission.
• There’s more inherent risk involved as the mission could be accidentally completed, especially if you invite Joe Schmoe along.
• Greater exposure to the game world outside of Atlas Park and Pocket D for those invited along.
• There’s also more risk in that the mobs are not crafted by players.

 

To address each bullet point -

• Not really.  You would have to do a couple of missions or get invited to a team where someone else has it.  You just need to talk to the first Police contact to get radio missions.
• Not really.  S/L defense capped builds are at no more risk in a Council PI portal or Council radio mission than they are in a S/L AE farm.
• A new player getting invited to a portal PI farm sees part of one more zone.  Not really a "greater exposure".
• Not really.  See S/L defense capped example above.

 

[Astralock]

Just now, battlewraith said:

 

Fun? Every time I read a comment like this, I wonder if it's a tacit admission that the general gameplay isn't engaging.

No, it’s a tacit admission that the general gameplay isn’t as rewarding.  It’s been shown time and time again in numerous video games that people will do tedious, boring things as long as the rewards are exponentially greater than elsewhere.  I.e., fun isn’t the determining factor for most players.  Rewards is.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Astralock said:

No, it’s a tacit admission that the general gameplay isn’t as rewarding.  It’s been shown time and time again in numerous video games that people will do tedious, boring things as long as the rewards are exponentially greater than elsewhere.  I.e., fun isn’t the determining factor for most players.  Rewards is.

 

Only speaking for myself here, but the rewards for things like Synapse, Citadel and Dr. Q could be quadrupled and I still would rather do something else.  Boring and tedious is boring and tedious, regardless of the reward.

[battlewraith]

59 minutes ago, Astralock said:

No, it’s a tacit admission that the general gameplay isn’t as rewarding.  It’s been shown time and time again in numerous video games that people will do tedious, boring things as long as the rewards are exponentially greater than elsewhere.  I.e., fun isn’t the determining factor for most players.  Rewards is.

 

If rewards are the only thing that matters, why take measures to penalize players for settling on the most convenient pathway to get those rewards?

[Bionic_Flea]

35 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

People who enjoy farming are still going to farm or continue to solo.  Were XP and inf to be removed from AE or AE removed entirely, those same people would just go back to farming the old missions.  They are going to find the next most efficient way to farm influence and/or XP.

Some farmers like to farm.  They like the feel, the pace, the rhythm.  Other players farm because they like the fast rewards.  Put faster/better rewards somewhere else and those players will go there.

 

What gets run a lot other than farms: The weekly, the TFs needed for TFC accolade, ITF, Tin-pex, Market Crash, DFB, RSF/MLTF, Hammy and Ship Raids.  Am I missing any of the usual suspects?  Why are these things run more often than all the other TFs and story arcs?  I'm not saying that other things are never done, just that these are done WAY more. 

 

I'll answer my rhetorical question - Because all of those either grant good rewards quickly or because it's the only way to get certain rewards.

 

If they want players to AE farm less, they can reduce rewards in AE, they can increase rewards out of AE, or they can create new content with unique rewards.  Oh, look!  That's what this new "page" does.  What a coincidence! 

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 Why are these things run more often than all the other TFs and story arcs? 

Besides the first two and DFB? Because you can play them at level 50 with all your stuff. That’s my reason. Has nothing to do with rewards for me. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by arcane

[Troo]

sometimes it's like kids peeing on an electric fence.. twice

 

Who's telling you how to play? Don't like some parts of the game, don't do it. The HC team has taken great care to allow both team and solo play within a given framework.

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Troo

[Bionic_Flea]

7 minutes ago, arcane said:

Besides the first two and DFB? Because you can play them at level 50 with all your stuff. That’s my reason.

That too.  Although a lot of people get to 50 and geared up, and then run the lower level TFs.  The DFB is just a little head start.

 

Also, everyone knows that Arcane is a special little snowflake. 😜

Edited August 2, 2022 by Bionic_Flea

[Marbing]

42 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

Whether people are farming in AE or a Portal mission, the result is the same.  Farmers running across multiple accounts can and still would earn inf faster than your average player and can buy merits with excess inf if they wanted to. 

Hence why I think the restrictions should be stronger, if they really want to push this. But that’s up to the Devs.

EDIT: Which is why I liked the removing Vet XP from AE better, because it moved more away and I think was a better solution to the perceived problem the Devs are (I assume) trying to solve.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Marbing

[Mythical Creature]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but if we revert back to the no vet exp in AE, will we still get the reward merits from the itrials that came with the conversion changes? I very much like that change where we get both rewards from the trials as I think this will get more folks doing them.

 

My vote would be eliminate the vet exp in AE and leave the extra itrial rewards in place so that itrials are more rewarding. 

 

If that isn't possible, maybe some other option? Thanks for everything!

[arcane]

1 minute ago, 723wolf said:

Maybe this is a stupid question, but if we revert back to the no vet exp in AE, will we still get the reward merits from the itrials that came with the conversion changes? I very much like that change where we get both rewards from the trials as I think this will get more folks doing them.

 

My vote would be eliminate the vet exp in AE and leave the extra itrial rewards in place so that itrials are more rewarding. 

 

If that isn't possible, maybe some other option? Thanks for everything!

The reward merits were only added to trials to appease people that would want to convert their empyrean merits but couldn’t. So no, there would be no logical reason to roll back to Build 1 but keep the merits. The merits are a package deal with the merit change in Build 2-3.