Minor QoL idea for ITF Mission 1

[Voltor]

Make Sister Solaris able to be teleported after she is rescued.

While she's busy talking, someone with TP targets her and tp's her right to the altar. No more having to deal with any stealth powers preventing her from moving and other players can take on the ambush while she finishes talking to the gods.

 

Or else have her able to see through stealth

 

Just a random idea.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Voltor

[Arc-Mage]

I would not be for this change. This would make her act differently than most of the other npc’s in the game. There are many many prisoner mishes on both sides that require the dropping of stealth. 

[Black Zot]

17 hours ago, Arc-Mage said:

I would not be for this change. This would make her act differently than most of the other npc’s in the game. There are many many prisoner mishes on both sides that require the dropping of stealth. 

 

You say that like it's a good thing to have escort missions (already objectively the worst quest type in gaming) require the player to shut down a chunk of their survivability to actually make forward progress.

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

You say that like it's a good thing to have escort missions (already objectively the worst quest type in gaming) require the player to shut down a chunk of their survivability to actually make forward progress.

Think about it - you should have to become visible or otherwise give your position away, for someone else to be able to follow you...

[Rudra]

Maybe change all escortees to be able to follow through stealth? Seriously, you can't just grab the NPC's hand and pull him/her along in your Steamy Mist or what have you? If you fight while stealthed, well, the NPC can plainly see what mobs are suddenly bleeding or flying uncontrollably away, the direction of your <insert damage type> blasts, or hear you yelling to get over there when the fighting dies down. (Edit: Also, you become visible while fighting anyway.)

 

Edit again: I've got no problem with having some of my characters buy a dozen leashes or so and leashing the NPCs with shock locks to keep them from taking the leashes off until I get them out.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Rudra

[biostem]

I would be in favor of being able to basically "fireman's carry" the hostage/escortee, but then you shouldn't be able to attack or hide.

[Rudra]

One of the things about stealthy characters in comics, is that when they have to move with a non-stealth character they still guide that non-stealth character while maintaining stealth. Even panicked NPC rescuees know to more or less keep their mouth shut when Batman or another sneaky hero is guiding them to safety. (Edit: And manage to follow the hero sneaking them out.) And while those rescuees' stealth is poor, they are more stealthy while the stealthy hero is guiding them.

 

Edit: Sure, Batman and others just typically clobber all the baddies so the hostages can run for their lives or whatever, but on the occasion a stealth hero is sneaking a hostage to safety, that is how it goes in the animated shows and comics.

 

Edit again: So maybe having an NPC escortee impose a Stealth penalty on the character would be in order.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Rudra

[Greycat]

Honestly, this is a longstanding complaint with rescues in general.

 

Ideally (to me) Sister Solaris (and most of the people you rescue) should *want* to be rescued, and thus actually *want* to follow you. If you're kidnapping them or they're otherwise not necessarily willing? THEN they can "accidentally" lose you.  Heck, great example of where both can come into play is in Technician Naylor's arc where you're raiding Aeon's lab. One of the hostages thinks "Aeon is a genius!" - he should be trying to get away. The other? Hates working there. They should be more than willing to follow you (with the "Do me a favor and tell everyone I was begging for my life all the way" line at the end.)

 

Probably the worst of all worlds is Warburg, where the scientists you're rescuing from hostile mutated "supersoldier" Arachnoids not only have trouble following you if you have any stealth, but these well-trained scientists have trouble with the advanced concepts of "Stairs," "Ramps" and "Walking in a straight line."

[biostem]

Why not just have her go to the altar as soon as the mobs around her are cleared?  You can have her go back into her "captive status" if more enemies reach her, or something...

[biostem]

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

One of the things about stealthy characters in comics, is that when they have to move with a non-stealth character they still guide that non-stealth character while maintaining stealth. Even panicked NPC rescuees know to more or less keep their mouth shut when Batman or another sneaky hero is guiding them to safety. (Edit: And manage to follow the hero sneaking them out.) And while those rescuees' stealth is poor, they are more stealthy while the stealthy hero is guiding them.

The thing is, the NPCs we're guiding aren't "followers" in the sense that'd be required for this to work.  I'm not necessarily against making such a change, but as long as they are basically neutral parties that just follow, then they either need their perception buffed way up, or you have to turn off your stealth powers...

 

I mean, they can't be harmed or recaptured, either.  Would you be willing to make those concessions as well?

Edited September 9, 2022 by biostem

[Voltor]

54 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Honestly, this is a longstanding complaint with rescues in general.

 

Ideally (to me) Sister Solaris (and most of the people you rescue) should *want* to be rescued, and thus actually *want* to follow you. If you're kidnapping them or they're otherwise not necessarily willing? THEN they can "accidentally" lose you.  Heck, great example of where both can come into play is in Technician Naylor's arc where you're raiding Aeon's lab. One of the hostages thinks "Aeon is a genius!" - he should be trying to get away. The other? Hates working there. They should be more than willing to follow you (with the "Do me a favor and tell everyone I was begging for my life all the way" line at the end.)

 

Probably the worst of all worlds is Warburg, where the scientists you're rescuing from hostile mutated "supersoldier" Arachnoids not only have trouble following you if you have any stealth, but these well-trained scientists have trouble with the advanced concepts of "Stairs," "Ramps" and "Walking in a straight line."

 

 

Warburg.......yeah another example of hostages and stealth being a problem.   Now if they just gave you the launch code after you save them then they run away.....

[Arc-Mage]

4 hours ago, Black Zot said:

 

You say that like it's a good thing to have escort missions (already objectively the worst quest type in gaming) require the player to shut down a chunk of their survivability to actually make forward progress.

Oh, I hate escort missions. They are by no means the worst part of the game.
 

There are plenty of other aspects of the game that negate a toons powers to progress. 
 

Its called creating a challenging game. 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

The thing is, the NPCs we're guiding aren't "followers" in the sense that'd be required for this to work.  I'm not necessarily against making such a change, but as long as they are basically neutral parties that just follow, then they either need their perception buffed way up, or you have to turn off your stealth powers...

 

I mean, they can't be harmed or recaptured, either.  Would you be willing to make those concessions as well?

They aren't followers in the comics either. I'm rather partial to @Greycat's take. The ones that want to be rescued follow through stealth. The ones that don't require you to actively manage them. Either by dropping stealth, or assigning a pet to toss 'em over a should and go, or anything. I'm even willing to take a hit on stealth effectiveness and lose the non-combat defense bonus from stealth powers on top of that while you have a friendly NPC in tow. For crying out loud though, there are combat NPCs that can't even follow your character through any form of stealth. Most can, but some can't.

[biostem]

Just now, Rudra said:

They aren't followers in the comics either. I'm rather partial to @Greycat's take. The ones that want to be rescued follow through stealth. The ones that don't require you to actively manage them. Either by dropping stealth, or assigning a pet to toss 'em over a should and go, or anything. I'm even willing to take a hit on stealth effectiveness and lose the non-combat defense bonus from stealth powers on top of that while you have a friendly NPC in tow. For crying out loud though, there are combat NPCs that can't even follow your character through any form of stealth. Most can, but some can't.

I put "followers" in quotes for a reason.  It's not meant to be taken literally.  What I meant is how the game handles these NPCs, vs something like a mastermind or Lore pet - those follow you regardless of your stealth.  When Batman rescues a hostage in the comics, that person is vulnerable to the enemies - they can be killed, recaptured, etc.  That is not the case for most such missions in CoH.  The simplest solution, IMO, would be to give these NPCs much higher perception.

[Rudra]

My apologies for the misunderstanding then. As for fixes? Right now? I don't really care as long as stealth characters stop being penalized for being stealth characters. (Though I am still very partial to @Greycat's solution, even if it would be far more technical to implement.)

 

Edit: And yes, I hold that stealth characters are being penalized. Before City of Villains launched, a stealth character could sneak to the end of the map, use the glowy or take down the boss, and the mission would be done. Then they introduced a dedicated stealth AT and took all that away.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Rudra

[Black Zot]

1 hour ago, Arc-Mage said:

Oh, I hate escort missions. They are by no means the worst part of the game.
 

There are plenty of other aspects of the game that negate a toons powers to progress. 
 

Its called creating a challenging game. 

 

That's not challenge, that's punishment.

[biostem]

42 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And yes, I hold that stealth characters are being penalized.

It does not follow that, if your character is truly undetectable, that some hostage could see you in order to follow you out.  If increasing their perception, to reflect you surreptitiously giving them direction isn't an option, then maybe have them make their own way toward the exit, (stopping if other enemies catch them), or just change it to mission complete upon clearing the surrounding enemies...

Edited September 10, 2022 by biostem

[Arc-Mage]

44 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

That's not challenge, that's punishment.

Dude, you aren’t constantly pushing a boulder up a hill. 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

It does not follow that, if your character is truly undetectable, that some hostage could see you in order to follow you out.  If increasing their perception, to reflect you surreptitiously giving them direction isn't an option, then maybe have them make their own way toward the exit, (stopping if other enemies catch them), or just change it to mission complete upon clearing the surrounding enemies...

Except your character is not truly undetectable. Even a Stalker using Hide, a Concealment Pool stealth power, and a movement stealth proc is not truly undetectable. Snipers of even 3-4 levels less than the character's level prove that at max range all the time as long as they are high enough in level to aggro to the character. Drones prove that every time you are in their LoS, which I am perfectly fine with. Even other players in PvP prove that with a few yellows or by having a perception boosting power active. (Edit: And that is without the consideration of how stealthy characters actually work when looking after another. You know, outside of CoX.)

 

I'm fine with bolstering the escortees' perception. I'm fine with making hostile escortees difficult to lead out. I'm fine with suffering a stealth penalty while having an escortee in tow. I'm fine with losing the added defense bonus from not being in combat if it will get the escortee to follow. I'm fine with any combination of the above. The whole stealth characters cannot use stealth to be stealthy bit though? THAT annoys me.

 

Escorted NPCs always required players to drop stealth to lead them out unless the NPC was a combat pet. Annoying, yes, but stealth characters also got the benefit of being able to sneak every other mission then, and it felt balanced. Then they added Stalkers and things changed. NPCs still required stealth characters to drop stealth unless they were combat NPCs, but almost every other aspect of stealth was stripped away. Only missions with multiple glowies still allowed a stealth character to sneak around and be sneaky as long as there was absolutely no other objective, otherwise it became a sneak the glowies and then clear the last room which may in fact be two rooms. So stealth as a player power is nearly useless. How many missions still let a stealth character be stealthy and not have to wipe out the room to claim the glowie the character already clicked or the boss the character already defeated like they could before Stalkers were added? And if you're doing a Nemesis mission? The game loves to saturate the map with snipers that completely ignore your stealth. Some Council/5th Column maps too. Rikti maps? Rikti Drones see you no problem, though they are subject to stealth reducing their perception radius so they see you closer in than the others.

 

The whole "Here is a power you can use but we will force you to not be able to on a better than regular basis during normal game play" bit is why I am in favor of the OP. (As opposed to incarnate game play, TF/SF game play, or other.) Not because I think Sister Solaris should be unique, I actually disagree with the OP because of that part. However, I think any friendly NPC being saved and escorted by the player should be able to follow through stealth. Even if something is applied to compensate for that.

 

Is it too much to ask to be able to use a power the game has provided since day 1 without having to run so many missions with it turned off to accomplish the goal? At least before CoV, stealth had a practical and obviously useful function, even if the player/character missed out on defeat xp/inf' for bypassing the mobs on the map. As opposed to the near niche role it has now. I love my stealth characters, all of them. That is despite how stealth works in the game now rather than because of it.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Rudra

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Except your character is not truly undetectable. Even a Stalker using Hide, a Concealment Pool stealth power, and a movement stealth proc is not truly undetectable.

Are you honestly arguing that some civvie hostage should be able to detect a hidden stalker, (or anyone with any concealment power, for that matter)?  The special units you described would ostensibly have either superior training, specialized equipment, or a combination of both, to allow them to detect you...

 

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The whole "Here is a power you can use but we will force you to not be able to on a better than regular basis during normal game play" bit is why I am in favor of the OP.

Be honest here - how much of your gameplay do you actually spend having to be visible, due to these circumstances?  If a circumstance requires you to be visible, then you just gotta learn to adapt to that.  It's just like powers that need you to be on the ground/not flying, or cases where you may need to get closer to an enemy than you may like...

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

Are you honestly arguing that some civvie hostage should be able to detect a hidden stalker, (or anyone with any concealment power, for that matter)?  The special units you described would ostensibly have either superior training, specialized equipment, or a combination of both, to allow them to detect you...

A friendly NPC won't resist having the stealth character guide them out. The character can hold the NPC's hand. The character can give verbal instructions to move forward and go around corners and go through doors. The civvie hostage does not need to be super perceptive to be able to do so.

 

The hostile NPC will take every opportunity to escape. The character can still maintain a physical grip on the NPC to force him/her to the exit. Like they do in anime, cartoons, movies, TV shows, comics, novels, etc. With combat forcing a disruption of the character's ability to do so. (Introducing the new NPC flee mechanic for when the PC is in combat.)

 

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

Be honest here - how much of your gameplay do you actually spend having to be visible, due to these circumstances? 

Every time I have to escort an NPC. Now as for stealth itself not being very useful any more? Every time the mission requires me to kill... I mean defeat... every mob in the room even if the have no means of monitoring the object I am there to take or the mob I am there to take down. (Let alone the plethora of defeat all missions where being sneaky is pointless.) Can I still stealth most maps? Yes. Then I have to hunt down every mob at the end to finish the mission despite being a sneaky character.

 

6 minutes ago, biostem said:

If a circumstance requires you to be visible, then you just gotta learn to adapt to that. 

I do. And I will keep playing the game even if this is not changed. And I will still keep making stealthy characters. That is more because I personally have a preference for playing hidden/sneaky characters in every game I play than because of how useful stealth is any more. And yes, I still enjoy stealth as a power in the game in all its forms because I can still bypass most of the map unless there is a hostage to deal with or it is a defeat all.

 

10 minutes ago, biostem said:

It's just like powers that need you to be on the ground/not flying,

And a lot of those have been changed to simply being near the ground instead.

 

8 minutes ago, biostem said:

cases where you may need to get closer to an enemy than you may like...

Uhm... like when? My ranged characters have the ability to keep enemies at range, usually with KB or immobs/holds/stuns, but also even if only by running away until aggro breaks or exiting the map or flying higher than their better than mine range. My melee characters really want to be in close to the target. And if in either case I want more space? I run away. (Or play the frantic methamphetamine OD'ed frog in combat.)

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

A friendly NPC won't resist having the stealth character guide them out.

Doesn't work if that NPC can't see them...

 

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

The character can hold the NPC's hand. The character can give verbal instructions to move forward and go around corners and go through doors. The civvie hostage does not need to be super perceptive to be able to do so.

Thereby giving away their position.

 

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The hostile NPC will take every opportunity to escape. The character can still maintain a physical grip on the NPC to force him/her to the exit.

Which also would give away their position.

 

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Every time I have to escort an NPC. Now as for stealth itself not being very useful any more? Every time the mission requires me to kill... I mean defeat... every mob in the room even if the have no means of monitoring the object I am there to take or the mob I am there to take down. (Let alone the plethora of defeat all missions where being sneaky is pointless.) Can I still stealth most maps? Yes. Then I have to hunt down every mob at the end to finish the mission despite being a sneaky character.

Stealth isn't the only tool in your toolbox.

 

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I do. And I will keep playing the game even if this is not changed.

So... problem solved?

 

 

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, biostem said:

Doesn't work if that NPC can't see them...

 

Thereby giving away their position.

 

Which also would give away their position.

 

Stealth isn't the only tool in your toolbox.

 

So... problem solved?

 

 

You are ignoring the points being made for why a stealth character can remain stealthy and still guide an NPC to safety. Yes, the character is giving away their position to the NPC. That is not in dispute. That same character is not however yelling through a bullhorn to guide the NPC.

 

And you're right. Stealth is not the only tool in my toolbox. However, the only other tools are the attacks and defenses. (Edit: Because you sure as hell can't use a power to move them.) So you are basically telling me and every else that plays a stealth character to not play a stealth character because stealth is pointless and we should rely on the other tools at our disposal. Not your point, but it is how you are coming across.

 

And no, problem not solved. I also don't see it actually being solved. Especially if the devs are even half as intractable as you are currently proving to be.

 

I can acknowledge your points. I can't understand why you would think a stealthy character would have to not be stealthy to help someone escape. Especially with all the references out there you can look up and read or watch that says otherwise.

 

Edit: Also, your comment about NPCs not being subject to re-capture or defeat? When was the last time you ran an escort mission? Sure, only combat NPCs can be defeated, except in that one mission I will not talk about where the heroes have exactly 1 HP, are not combat NPCs in the mission, and are subject to defeat. However, the non-defeatable NPCs can be re-captured. That is the point of the ambushes that spawn after you rescue the NPC. And that is what happens when you are defeated. They get re-captured. So it is not a question of whether I or anyone else is willing to deal with that, because we already do.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Rudra

[FUBARczar]

Sister Solaris doesn't need to follow anyone, it's her freaking temple!!!  She knows where the altar is and how to find it blindfolded. 

 

Once feed she should run to the stinking altar.  And it's a problem when you don't even know if and/or when she will follow  

 

 

[Arc-Mage]

16 hours ago, biostem said:

Why not just have her go to the altar as soon as the mobs around her are cleared?  You can have her go back into her "captive status" if more enemies reach her, or something...

I would not be opposed to this idea if they move up the ambush time also.