Savage Melee - Hemorrhage

[Ravenwulfe]

I don't understand this power in its current form. On a brute it's a tier 8 power, but it does less damage than a tier 3 power vicious slash, even with the added dot. It has no control or added benefits unlike vicious slash which has a knockdown component to it. It is also a blood frenzy spender, which makes its utility much less prevalent for the set as a whole as well. The choice of whether to burn blood frenzy on this or not just isn't powerful enough since stacks of blood frenzy bring better benefits; it's barely slightly better than maiming slash honestly in its current form.

 

So here are my suggestions for fixing this;

 

First off, Hemorrhage just needs more upfront damage. It has no perceivable utility outside of it being this big wind up hit right now (long cast animation and recharge). It currently does the same damage as a power that costs half as much, nearly casts twice as fast and has a much shorter recharge time in the same set with maiming slash, and yet maiming slash has the ability to debuff the targets movement speed. But it needs a bit more than this to make it useful.

 

I would add in either a knockdown or knock up component, or give it the ability to reduce the targets lethal resistance for a short time. The bleed component can stay but there needs to be more to this power as well. Something to make it worth burning the blood frenzy on a real choice of whether to save or not.

 

Rending Fury, the other spender in this set, grants wider range making use of blood frenzy a bit more palatable in the set. Maybe when you burn 5 stacks of blood frenzy with hemorrhage you can give this power a cone affect that inflicts bleed dots on nearby foes as well.

 

So, TLDR - up the powers upfront damage. The cast time and recharge are too long and endurance cost are too high to comparable powers within its own set.

 

Give this power an effect as well. A knockdown or knock up effect would be preferable to go with the animation, but lethal and defense resistance reduction would also fit the theme.

 

Finally when spending 5 stacks of blood frenzy, give this an additional component besides a slightly longer dot tick, such as a small cone AoE effect to go with the nature of throwing all that anger into one all or nothing shot. This power should not be less effective than a tier 2 or 3 power that have way more utility.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Ravenwulfe
format and adding in some further info

[biostem]

What Hemorrhage should do is play with Blood Frenzy in a sort of inverse way - being near the enemy, while they are under the DoT, should generate additional stacks of Blood Frenzy and apply a -res effect to that enemy.  Heck, maybe being near them should provide you a +regen effect, to reflect you feeding off of the enemy as they bleed out...

[Ravenwulfe]

41 minutes ago, biostem said:

What Hemorrhage should do is play with Blood Frenzy in a sort of inverse way - being near the enemy, while they are under the DoT, should generate additional stacks of Blood Frenzy and apply a -res effect to that enemy.  Heck, maybe being near them should provide you a +regen effect, to reflect you feeding off of the enemy as they bleed out...

Not understanding what you are meaning. Do you mean if someone has hemorrhage in their kit they should generate blood frenzy, or do you mean an effect that would apply a slow generation over time for blood frenzy? What would be the replacement spender for options then? And what about the effects of exhaustion?

 

the regeneration is another possible solution though I think I would replace that with a heal component instead.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Ravenwulfe

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe said:

Not understanding what you are meaning. Do you mean if someone has hemorrhage in their kit they should generate blood frenzy, or do you mean an effect that would apply a slow generation over time for blood frenzy? What would be the replacement spender for options then? And what about the effects of exhaustion?

 

the regeneration is another possible solution though I think I would replace that with a heal component instead.

I meant that if you, as a savage melee user, was near an enemy under the DoT of Hemorrhage, you'd generate stacks of blood frenzy, since you can smell their blood or something.  Sine you mentioned it needing to consume those stacks when you're at 5, perhaps that could be when the +regen effect kicks in for you, while also applying the exhausted lockout.  Another idea for consuming the stacks could be that you end the DoT and instead apply a massive hit of damage - think of it as rupturing the wounds you applied...

Edited September 20, 2022 by biostem

[Ravenwulfe]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

I meant that if you, as a savage melee user, was near an enemy under the DoT of Hemorrhage, you'd generate stacks of blood frenzy, since you can smell their blood or something.  Sine you mentioned it needing to consume those stacks when you're at 5, perhaps that could be when the +regen effect kicks in for you, while also applying the exhausted lockout.

Possibly though I still feel that Hemorrhage in general still needs its upfront damage upped. Cast time, recharge, and endurance cost are baffling for the simple fact it does the same damage as a tier 2 power with less effects.

 

So how about, along with upping the upfront damage (it should perceivably equal if not exceed vicious slash after all for all these factors) as a spender it gives a small HoT effect.

 

Quote

Another idea for consuming the stacks could be that you end the DoT and instead apply a massive hit of damage - think of it as rupturing the wounds you applied...

I thought of this to. It is a good idea in general. Though even when you take into account the DoT its damage is still comparably weaker than other powers in its own set for a spender, so in all cases the damage will need to be upped in some fashion. And I do think it needs a bit more than just raw damage to. Some form of control or the HoT added to it.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Ravenwulfe
Updating response with added quote

[aethereal]

In fairness, the base damage of Hemorrhage is better than Vicious Slash as soon as you have I think one point of Blood Frenzy, and when you have 5 points of Blood Frenzy, the DPA of Hemorrhage is better than Vicious Slash.

 

That doesn't stop Hemorrhage from being a pretty garbage power.

 

I think its position as a Blood Frenzy spender sits awkwardly with its status as a heavily DoT power.  Hitting your opponent with a DoT sort of implies that you expect the fight to go on for a while, which suggests that Blood Frenzy lockout is bad for you.

 

It seems like Savage does need this additional Blood Frenzy spender (without Hemorrhage, the only spender is Rending Flurry, the PBAoE).  I don't know that it's super valuable to game out exactly what fixes it needs -- I don't think the devs pay much attention to that kind of specific suggestion -- but some kind of up-front damage, or maybe applying the same buff to you that the Build Up does where your other attacks' DoTs become guaranteed.

[agentx5]

In it's current form [Hemorrhage] is such a garbage power that I skipped it on my dragon tanker.

 

I think it could honestly use all of those:

+ Base damage increased (permanent)

+ DMG bonus% (self) per bleed stack consumed

+ Regen% (self) per bleed stack consumed

- RES% (enemy target) per bleed stack consumed

 

Up to debate on how long those effects last, how much numerically they grant, or even if bleed stack limits should be changed.  Heck even the name of the power could be changed, just so that people know it's not the same thing that it was, maybe make the name better fitting.  But at the end of the day it's currently about as useless as [Enflame] from sorcery used to be.  It's one of many underperforming powers that needs improvement to make it competitive with other sets, and seeing as I have a tanker who thematically would benefit far more from Savage Melee than Dark Melee, I'd love to see some improvements to the set as a whole.  This particular power @Ravenwulfe has made this topic about is just the worst one in the set.

 

And before anyone bemoans this response, I'll point out that the HC Devs have been quite active with improving powersets that are underperforming compared to other near-peer sets.  It's not outlandish to ask for all four, it just depends on how much and how long for the variables.  And that can be tweaked via playtesting.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by agentx5
Formatting

[TheZag]

It was nerfed into its current state because hemorrhage used to be extremely powerful.  I think it got nerfed a little too much though and now i feel penalized if i spend 5 blood frenzy with it.  I honestly feel spending 5 on either power is worse then spending 4 and immediately building again so my rotation builds 4 and then spends on hemorrhage and then build 4 and spend on rending flurry.  They recharge just in time to alternate spending 4 on each ability every time they are available.  If i miss on a spend attack and build to 5 on the next rotation then im exhausted for the next few rotations.  I dont have numbers to back it up but it feels like spending 5 was worse because i miss out on spending 8 or more plus i dont have any blood frenzy buff during that time.

 

[Ravenwulfe]

24 minutes ago, TheZag said:

It was nerfed into its current state because hemorrhage used to be extremely powerful.  I think it got nerfed a little too much though and now i feel penalized if i spend 5 blood frenzy with it.  I honestly feel spending 5 on either power is worse then spending 4 and immediately building again so my rotation builds 4 and then spends on hemorrhage and then build 4 and spend on rending flurry.  They recharge just in time to alternate spending 4 on each ability every time they are available.  If i miss on a spend attack and build to 5 on the next rotation then im exhausted for the next few rotations.  I dont have numbers to back it up but it feels like spending 5 was worse because i miss out on spending 8 or more plus i dont have any blood frenzy buff during that time.

 

I typically use 5 to spend then use Blood Thirst to immediately get 5 back but so far in all my testing the damage hasn't felt worth it (ignoring Blood Thirst egregious activation time compared to Build Up in other sets).

 

If I am in a group of hostiles I use Rending Flurry because the 5 blood frenzy to spend on increased range, though I think the range needs to be upped on it when you spend in this way; up to the range of savage leap when spending that much of your blood frenzy. But in its current state Hemorrhage is just not a good power. I feel Cross Punch is a way better power; faster activation, faster recharge, less endurance cost, and even a cone attack that can stun and knockdown to. It's silly that an auxiliary is far better than a power set power.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Ravenwulfe
Additional info and Formatting

[aethereal]

Note that both Rending Flurry and Hemorrhage get an additional bonus for spending all 5 blood thirst stacks, over and above the linear bonuses they get for other blood thirst expenditures.

 

I think that the implicit "game" of Savage Melee is supposed to be deciding when to tactically spend down below 5 and avoid the lockout, and when to go all out and suffer the lockout.  This is one reason why SM really needs both spenders to be worthwhile powers -- if you just have Rending Flurry as a spender, it's very awkward to manage your blood thirst stacks, both because at low global recharge it's pretty easy to earn up to 5 blood thirst before Rending Flurry comes off CD. and because sometimes you're like fighting a single opponent and don't want to use Rending Flurry for its bad ST damage.

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Ravenwulfe said:

I typically use 5 to spend then use Blood Thirst to immediately get 5 back

Does Blood Thirst bypass the lockout from exhausted?

[Ravenwulfe]

30 minutes ago, biostem said:

Does Blood Thirst bypass the lockout from exhausted?

Yes, it does, though it has a long cast animation of 2 seconds compared to most build ups.

[Ravenwulfe]

5 hours ago, aethereal said:

Note that both Rending Flurry and Hemorrhage get an additional bonus for spending all 5 blood thirst stacks, over and above the linear bonuses they get for other blood thirst expenditures.

 

I think that the implicit "game" of Savage Melee is supposed to be deciding when to tactically spend down below 5 and avoid the lockout, and when to go all out and suffer the lockout.  This is one reason why SM really needs both spenders to be worthwhile powers -- if you just have Rending Flurry as a spender, it's very awkward to manage your blood thirst stacks, both because at low global recharge it's pretty easy to earn up to 5 blood thirst before Rending Flurry comes off CD. and because sometimes you're like fighting a single opponent and don't want to use Rending Flurry for its bad ST damage.

While I agree Rending Flurry does have that tactical advantage, Hemorrhage on the other hand does not. In all my tests so far, burning 5 stacks on Hemorrhage just isn't worth it the extra damage is not even close. Especially when you consider other similar powers of this type, such as Knockout Blow for instance.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Ravenwulfe said:

While I agree Rending Flurry does have that tactical advantage, Hemorrhage on the other hand does not. In all my tests so far, burning 5 stacks on Hemorrhage just isn't worth it the extra damage is not even close. Especially when you consider other similar powers of this type, such as Knockout Blow for instance.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=brute_melee.savage_melee.hemorrhage&at=brute

 

So the way that Hemorrhage works is:

 

For Blood Frenzy 0-4, it does 5 ticks of 13.597 damage plus an additional 4% damage per level of Blood Frenzy.

 

For Blood Frenzy 5, it does 6 ticks of 14.306 damage plus an additional 20% (ie, 5 x 4%).

 

(EDIT:  both of the above are on top of the instantaneous 31.6979 damage that it does -- that amount is not affected by Blood Frenzy)

 

So, is that "worth" it?  I mean, I think no.  Hemorrhage remains a bad power.  But the point is, you get things from level 5 blood frenzy that you don't get from levels 1-4, in exchange for the lockout.  The difference between 4 and 5 blood frenzy is not just another 4% damage boost, like the difference between 3 and 4 is.

Edited September 21, 2022 by aethereal

[Ravenwulfe]

43 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=brute_melee.savage_melee.hemorrhage&at=brute

 

So the way that Hemorrhage works is:

 

For Blood Frenzy 0-4, it does 5 ticks of 13.597 damage plus an additional 4% damage per level of Blood Frenzy.

 

For Blood Frenzy 5, it does 6 ticks of 14.306 damage plus an additional 20% (ie, 5 x 4%).

 

(EDIT:  both of the above are on top of the instantaneous 31.6979 damage that it does -- that amount is not affected by Blood Frenzy)

 

So, is that "worth" it?  I mean, I think no.  Hemorrhage remains a bad power.  But the point is, you get things from level 5 blood frenzy that you don't get from levels 1-4, in exchange for the lockout.  The difference between 4 and 5 blood frenzy is not just another 4% damage boost, like the difference between 3 and 4 is.

But... 20% is 5 stacks and 4 would be 16% so if I am following what you are saying that is just another 4%. So at 4 stacks you are talking 110.58 damage per activation (remember long cooldown and a 2 second activation time as well) versus at 5 stacks being 134.66. (Note: I rounded the damage to the nearest tenth). That is not even remotely close especially since that extra damage is nothing but DoT damage which is only useful against AVs.

 

And on top of that you are talking about other powers in the set. Even saying it does more damage it really doesn't compare to its lower tier powers which also recharge faster and do far more damage per activation, and have things such as control or other debuff effects in them on top of having DoT effects. Never mind being lower cost.

[kelika2]

I think the point of savage melee is to use 3-4 stacks and not always 5.  something about noble savage or something using smartmaker

[aethereal]

1 minute ago, Ravenwulfe said:

But... 20% is 5 stacks and 4 would be 16% so if I am following what you are saying that is just another 4%.

 

It's another 4% plus a higher base damage and an extra tick of damage.

 

You seem really determined to turn this into an argument about whether Hemorrhage's 5 blood frenzy bonus is worthwhile.  I'm really not arguing with you there.  I agree that Hemorrhage is underwhelming at all levels of Blood Frenzy.

 

But there is a significant extra bonus on the transition from 4 to 5 Blood Frenzy, that is not just a linear increase of the same kind that you get from all the other levels of Blood Frenzy.  I think that the design concept here is that this is a significant trade-off, and is the "minigame" of Savage Melee -- deciding whether the additional bonus effect that you get from burning 5 stacks of Blood Frenzy is worth the lockout that follows, or if you should take the lower outcome of 4 Blood Frenzy in return for the ability to quickly rebuild your Blood Frenzy.  It just doesn't work that well, because Hemorrhage sucks.

 

By the way, comparing Hemorrhage to Vicious Slash is maybe a little unfair because Vicious Slash (on Brutes) actually is a very good single target attack, with a better DPA than Total Focus, a very attractive cast time, and a worthwhile secondary effect.  Vicious Slash is very good!  Savage Melee arguably shouldn't get another attack that's as good as Vicious Slash.  It's worthwhile to note that Hemorrhage with no Blood Frenzy is in fact lower DPA than Maiming Slash as well as Vicious Slash, and that Hemorrhage doesn't benefit from the somewhat underrated Blood Thirst bonus of turning bleeds from 25% chance to cancel to auto-hit.

[Ravenwulfe]

9 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

I think the point of savage melee is to use 3-4 stacks and not always 5.  something about noble savage or something using smartmaker

The design is for deciding if you want to use for power. And using Blood Frenzy on Rending Flurry is actually quite useful as it is increases the AoE of that power quite noticeably. Furthermore Blood Thirst bypasses any annoyance of exhaustion. So quite disagree that 3 to 4 is the point of savage melee.

[agentx5]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=brute_melee.savage_melee.hemorrhage&at=brute

 

So the way that Hemorrhage works is:

 

For Blood Frenzy 0-4, it does 5 ticks of 13.597 damage plus an additional 4% damage per level of Blood Frenzy.

 

For Blood Frenzy 5, it does 6 ticks of 14.306 damage plus an additional 20% (ie, 5 x 4%).

 

(EDIT:  both of the above are on top of the instantaneous 31.6979 damage that it does -- that amount is not affected by Blood Frenzy)

 

So, is that "worth" it?  I mean, I think no.  Hemorrhage remains a bad power.  But the point is, you get things from level 5 blood frenzy that you don't get from levels 1-4, in exchange for the lockout.  The difference between 4 and 5 blood frenzy is not just another 4% damage boost, like the difference between 3 and 4 is.

IMHO, damage #'s aren't the only things that matters when it comes to combat powers, it also depends on the endurance cost, activation time, and recharge time (to name 3 important factors)

[Savage Leap] and [Shield Charge] and [Lightning Rod] are three examples of amazingly fun powers (basically teleport power with a little bit of PBAoE damage on impact) that could be more amazing with a bit less recharge time.  If you went purely off their damage, you might think they were good for overall DPS, but that's false they're better for tactical positioning with the damage as just icing on the cake of awesomesauce.  That said, considering they are all level 32 or 38 minimum level requirement top-tier powers in their respective sets, frankly they ALL could use to have their recharge time reduced and standardized between them.  That way all three can be used more frequently (but you'd have to have the powerset of course), and it's more a choice of what theme would you like.
 

And don't forget about secondary effects that not only help you but can help the entire team, such as -toHit, -DEF, and -RES.  Or even soft mezzes like the knock-up and knock-back found in a melee powerset like Super Strength or Warmace, because sometimes pausing enemy damage output just for a moment is what you or your team most needs (i.e.: saving teammate who's about run out of HP and take a dirt nap)

Basically there's a lot more than just posting some damage numbers.  It kind of reminds me of when people ask on Help Chat in game what is the best damage.  Best how?  Single target?  Ranged?  AoE DoT (i.e. [Blizzard])?  Is this with teammates doing debuffing?  What power sets?  What level range?  Incarnates included?  There's a lots and LOTS of factors to consider and there most important of all is this:
Just because you have the build with all the enhancements equipped, doesn't meant that its optimal combat playstyle and attack cycles are things you know how to do (let alone doing intuitively); or even that it matches your preferred/natural combat playstyle. How the PLAYER themselves prefers to play, that's arguably the most important consideration when choosing archetypes and powersets. 
One of the things I love is when I see somebody discover a powerset or archetype they absolutely fall in love with because it so naturally fits how they prefer to play in combat.

Even more so if if they were reluctant to give that archetype or powerset a try because they didn't think they'd like it.  It's also while I appreciate a tool like Mid's Reborn and I frequently referrence the incredibly useful City of Data, it's not the only consideration. Some players can shift modes of play, like from passive support to scrapper-lock-like hyper-aggressive-leading-the-charge sentinel and all sort of other combat playstyle preferences around and in-between.

In the case of Savage Melee, it just needs a bit of love & QoL improvements to make it on par with its peers -- to make it a choice more people will consider.
Hemorrhage is just the most outstanding sore-thumb in the set power choices, so perhaps that's a single power to work on.

😄

Edited September 21, 2022 by agentx5
ugh... grammar...

[agentx5]

9 hours ago, TheZag said:

It was nerfed into its current state because hemorrhage used to be extremely powerful.  I think it got nerfed a little too much though and now i feel penalized if i spend 5 blood frenzy with it.  I honestly feel spending 5 on either power is worse then spending 4 and immediately building again so my rotation builds 4 and then spends on hemorrhage and then build 4 and spend on rending flurry.  They recharge just in time to alternate spending 4 on each ability every time they are available.  If i miss on a spend attack and build to 5 on the next rotation then im exhausted for the next few rotations.  I dont have numbers to back it up but it feels like spending 5 was worse because i miss out on spending 8 or more plus i dont have any blood frenzy buff during that time.

 

 

When was it nerfed?  Do you recall?

(Cryptic has a history of over-nerfing things into uselessness.  Like in every single one of their game titles.  It's there thing.  Release new with it being OP as hell, then multi-stack nerfs on it to make it nearly useless)

[aethereal]

33 minutes ago, agentx5 said:

IMHO, damage #'s aren't the only things that matters when it comes to combat powers, it also depends on the endurance cost, activation time, and recharge time (to name 3 important factors)

 

Yes, I mean...  everyone knows.  For what it's worth, Hemorrhage with 5 Blood Frenzy is the highest DPA attack in Savage Melee (that is, when factoring in its animation time, it does the most damage per unit of activation time).  Damage and recharge time are, in general, linked in a strict ratio.  I don't think that Hemorrhage's basic problem is too much endurance cost (in general, Savage is, due to its inherent, a very endurance-efficient set).

 

But again, the point of the post you quoted was not to defend Hemorrhage's holistic worth as a power -- it's a bad power -- it was to point out that it gets a significant "extra" bonus when used at Blood Frenzy 5.

 

33 minutes ago, agentx5 said:

[Savage Leap] and [Shield Charge] and [Lightning Rod] are three examples of amazingly fun powers (basically teleport power with a little bit of PBAoE damage on impact) that could be more amazing with a bit less recharge time.  If you went purely off their damage, you might think they were good for overall DPS, but that's false they're better for tactical positioning with the damage as just icing on the cake of awesomesauce.  That said, considering they are all level 32 or 38 minimum level requirement top-tier powers in their respective sets, frankly they ALL could use to have their recharge time reduced and standardized between them.  That way all three can be used more frequently (but you'd have to have the powerset of course), and it's more a choice of what theme would you like.

 

I mean...  those are all really good powers that definitely don't need any buffs.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I think the hate for Hemmerouge is almost exclusively due to the DoT aspect of it.  It's actually a useful power, but I get that the time value of damage is real and we all want it now now now!  You can get a feel for the total damage on scrappers since the crit damage is upfront.  I don't think a buff is strictly necessary...

 

But that said, I think an interesting buff to the power would be a -regen debuff that was in effect for as long as the DoT was ticking.  Offsetting the healing your opponent is getting would be thematic and useful.

 

Another interesting buff would be to open it up to more IO slotting choices.  It's a good candidate for procs, but there aren't many interesting or useful procs for melee damage (other than damage procs).  How about adding a very slight defense debuff and allowing an Achilles Heel in there?  Just spitballing.

 

23 hours ago, TheZag said:

I honestly feel spending 5 on either power is worse then spending 4 and immediately building again so my rotation builds 4 and then spends on hemorrhage and then build 4 and spend on rending flurry.  They recharge just in time to alternate spending 4 on each ability every time they are available. 

 

 

This is the same conclusion I have come to as I'm approaching 50 with my first savage melee scrapper.

[TheZag]

I did some poking around and couldnt find the nerf i mentioned.  I did find a bug sweep for savage melee and it talks about several abilities had extra DoTs that were removed but didnt say what powers.  That might be where im remembering a nerf from even though it was a bug fix.

 

[aethereal]

2 hours ago, TheZag said:

I did some poking around and couldnt find the nerf i mentioned.  I did find a bug sweep for savage melee and it talks about several abilities had extra DoTs that were removed but didnt say what powers.  That might be where im remembering a nerf from even though it was a bug fix.

The bug fix for Savage was a huge nerf to Hemorrhage on Stalkers only.  The power was legitimately bugged, but it was bugged in such a way that, I forget the details, you could get like 2x crits by critting specifically from hide, I think?

 

This wasn't the most recent SM bug sweep, which mostly didn't do much, but from a couple of pages ago.

[Sylph Knight]

On 9/21/2022 at 3:05 PM, Krimson said:

Hand Clap exists to free up space for another power.

 

I fixed that for you. 😄

That said, I agree with most points discussed here but also want to bring up a friendly reminder that this is symptomatic of combo power design introduced much later into the game's development, long after earlier sets had established burst as a baseline. I have seen power creep in other games come as a result of the *inverse* of this particular design shift.

 

Building damage around resource generation or wind-up introduces several balancing concerns compared to older power sets which are already good at early burst rotation with fewer requirements involved. It's nice to feel the endorphin rush when everything comes together, but plugging in a lot of extra steps to get there while hoping there's still something available for you to capitalize your investment on means combo finisher powers need a lot of oomph by the endgame to make them feel viable.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Sylph Knight
Typos and some terminology changes.