The tragedy of the Brute Fury nerf. A timeless lament

[Erratic1]

7 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

Did you somehow fail to read both before and after the comparison where I noted that Tankers have better AoE than Brutes and that creates an area which is not directly comparable? 

 

No. I chose to focus on what you focused on--apples to apples. It cannot be called apples to apples if there are factors which turn one apple into a passion fruit and the other into a kumquat.

 

 

7 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

Scrappers who don't use the ATOs will absolutely underperform Brutes in basically all circumstances.  I think people really underestimate just how much of Scrapper performance is locked into the ATO2.

 

If we're leaving out ATOs then we might as well leave out IOs too, at which point the supposed Brute advantage of a higher resistance cap becomes greatly theoretical. 

 

In these discussions the ability to crit is factored in as a 10% increase in damage because we're considering averages over time. The reality of getting a critical hit? Depending on attack and target (yellow or less definitely, oranges a little more variably) the target is gone. As example, and not applying to all scrappers, my War Mace/Ninjitsu scrapper has a 75% chance to crit from stealth. Open with  Clobber and one target from a typical spawn is gone. That is mentioned only to underscore the value of a crit. Brutes -=*NEVER*=- crit. That spawn of 5 foes is a spawn of 5 foes each of which has to be worked down without <CRITICAL> and suddenly one is gone. Did you rest before you entered combat? Well, that Fury bar is not at 80 so there went the 160% damage boost you include in your calculations like it is etched in stone.

 

But you know, I have noticed something....

 

7 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Basically:

 

Without ATOs, Scrappers are strongly outperformed by Brutes (on pure damage)

With just ATO1, Scrappers are slightly outperformed by Brutes (on pure damage)

With ATO1 and ATO2 and no PPM abuse, Scrappers are somewhere pretty close to Brute damage

With ATO1 and perma-hasten levels of global recharge leading to about triple the listed PPM of the ATO2, Scrappers solidly outperform brute damage

With ATO1 and perma-hasten levels of global recharge leading to about triple the listed PPM of the ATO2, and the ATO2 proc slotted carefully in just the right power and the attack rotation made to bias the big hitter powers right after the ATO-procced power, then Scrappers can do really crazy amounts of damage

 

The ATOs are crucial to rescuing Scrapper performance, and specifically PPM abuse on the superior version of the ATO2 proc is necessary for the kind of scrapper performance that we see on things like Pylon tests.  That's, like...  I don't know.  It's better than just having Scrappers be inferior to Brutes in every way.  But it's a pretty bad approach to the AT balance, in my opinion.  The very highest end scrappers are probably overpowered.  Lots of scrappers who don't know how to use the ATO2 proc at its most effectiveness are pretty underpowered.

 

Despite my repeated references to Tanks and Scrappers both, every bit of your posting is about poor, sad, suffering, barely getting by scrappers. 

 

Feel free to start a petition thread underscoring how scrapper have no place in the game and need buffs...

 

...or, I suppose how brutes need new nerfs. Because clearly brutes must be trouncing scrappers by your apples to apples comparisons, actual video of play notwithstanding.

[Erratic1]

@aethereal,

 

I should probably apologize for that last post. Just really bothered that in the Brute forum in a thread supposedly about Brutes and their place, what with the OP backing up that he was not calling for Brutes to do more damage than Scrapper (and certainly nothing I have called for) the thread keeps being bent to Scrapper.

 

 

[aethereal]

You don't need to apologize: I have thick skin.  But you're also having a conversation with a fantasy version of me who exists only in your head, and it's not particularly productive.

[Infinitum]

9 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Has anyone here been asking for Brutes to do equal or more damage than scrappers?

Directly - no... but lamenting the days gone by when they could - calling the change from the days when Brutes did out damage scrappers and some blasters even - a "tragedy" and lament - then yes that is asking for it.

 

And no, it shouldn't be allowed to be at that level of power.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

So one might expect doing the same mission, say like is chronicled in the Trapdoor thread, to find Scrappers taking at least 10% longer than Brutes to clear and Tankers taking 45% longer than Brutes.

 

But that is not what is seen is looking at reported times.

 

The apples to apples comparison is a purely numerical bit that ignores the realities of play.

 

 

Has a 1 : 1 comparison been done between tanker and brute in that thread?

 

I looked - couldn't find one.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Infinitum

[Snarky]

7 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Directly - no... but lamenting the days gone by when they could - calling the change from the days when Brutes did out damage scrappers and some blasters even - a "tragedy" and lament - then yes that is asking for it.

 

And no, it shouldn't be allowed to be at that level of power.

You could read it that way.  Or you could read my OP and realize I thought Brutes rarely topped Scrapper damage. (I never played Scrappers, still don't, and honestly I still wonder if Brutes all did this, or just a few powersets in specific situations with hyper one sided builds....)

[Erratic1]

7 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

Has a 1 : 1 comparison been done between tanker and brute in that thread?

 

I looked - couldn't find one.

 

As an overall comparison, not that I see. There are a few examples of people running the same powersets across melee ATs.

 

The initial post has roughly equivalent times between TW/Bio scrappers and brutes (5:38 scrapper, 5:59 brute).

 

Sovera has Fire/Rad Tanker time of 6:57, Brute time of 5:55 on presumably similar builds (no Atom Smasher on either). Non-proc based Rad Melee is extremely single target since Proton Sweep is usually skipped and in Sovera's builds Atom Smasher was as well. This presumably would favor the Brute according to everyone posting about how Tanker's dominating Trapdoor is via superior area attacks. Fiery Aura's Blazing Aura is also going to be boosted by Brute Fury, which would be an offset against both increased radius and number of targets for a Tanker. The Brute's 355s completion would suggest according to Aethereal's calculation 514.75s, or 8:34.75. Sovera managed nearly 2 minutes faster for and end result only 17% longer as opposed to 45%. Sovera does come back later and tests a Brute build with Atom Smasher and is able to drop the Brute's time to roughly 4:50 but I do not see a test of Tanker with Atom Smasher. (Note: Did not consider the damage splash mechanism.)

 

Eyeballing results on a light skim most Brute times are around the 5m mark with some dipping a bit lower and some coming in a bit higher. Scrappers are similar, at least initially, but do have builds which get down towards 4m. Tankers...well, depending how heavily SS or Rad are abused*, get down to sub-4m times.

 

*The guy with the best Tanker times notes he can get similar times with a Fire/Savage Tanker, so perhaps throw Savage in the mix as well.

[Gobbledigook]

What is it you would actually like them to do with Brutes now @Snarky? You made enough threads about the woes of the Brute, so tell us what you would do with them please.

[Sanguinesun]

1 hour ago, Gobbledegook said:

What is it you would actually like them to do with Brutes now @Snarky? You made enough threads about the woes of the Brute, so tell us what you would do with them please.

 

 

My idea would be a hot topic but may have merit.

 

Combine Tankers and Brutes, give the AT a new name and have Tank and Brute be respective modes(like a stance that staff fighting has), that switches to those respective damage/defense values currently exclusive to the two different  ATs.  The ATO's can also similarly be combined so that they trigger the current respective bonuses based on the brute/tanker mode they're in.

 

The challenge then comes down to other IO set choices that can differ with the stance/mode chosen.  this could be turned into the class having 2 different IO set/power/slot choices based on their stances or as a change to the issues between the two current classes, a requirement(challenge if you will intentionally) to choose as 1 build with compromises on either side.

 

I'm just giving a very simplistic overview but when you look at both tanks and brutes, the only differences boil down to the number of targets, inherents of the ATs and respective defenses and damage stats.  There's no other differences in the two classes unlike stalker vs scrapper distinctions in powers and powersets for example.

 

All that can essentially be combined into 1 AT and potentially erase their complaints when compared to scrappers.  People will of course be upset over potential loss of the two being separate identities even though the goal is taking the best of both of their worlds into 1 AT.   To me the lines between the two AT's really have become so thin in recent years with HC's changes that this is starting to become more plausible if not potentially inevitable.

 

Again, this is because I see HC having a trend to minimize differences between AT and power sets and if that's their goal this seems like something of consideration.

 

 

[Gobbledigook]

Yea i a not sure players will be willing to lose a class as you say.

 

I did nention somewhere also about giving brutes a dps and tank stance though.

 

They would lose capped resist etc in the dps stance but gain more damage via fury increase. They would gain mitigation in tanker stance but lose damage some.

 

Either stance would be slightly less potent than the main class but they would geta role choice.

 

The brute sort of wotks like that now but the differences would be closer with stances.

 

But a good Brute ATO could really do a lot for the class just like the Scrappers etc does without major changes.

[Snarky]

3 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Yea i a not sure players will be willing to lose a class as you say.

 

I did nention somewhere also about giving brutes a dps and tank stance though.

 

They would lose capped resist etc in the dps stance but gain more damage via fury increase. They would gain mitigation in tanker stance but lose damage some.

 

Either stance would be slightly less potent than the main class but they would geta role choice.

 

The brute sort of wotks like that now but the differences would be closer with stances.

 

But a good Brute ATO could really do a lot for the class just like the Scrappers etc does without major changes.

The only change the current Dev team are willing to make to Brutes would be to adversely affect them. Bringing Brute ATO procs up to be as useful as other AT procs works against the goal.  Now, if you have an interesting idea to buff Scrappers or Tanks they might give you a listen.

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

The only change the current Dev team are willing to make to Brutes would be to adversely affect them. Bringing Brute ATO procs up to be as useful as other AT procs works against the goal.  Now, if you have an interesting idea to buff Scrappers or Tanks they might give you a listen.

That is just negativity.

 

You need to give them idea's of how they could improve the Brute being a Brute player yourself. You must have some idea's surely after making so many posts about the subject?

 

 

[Snarky]

8 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

That is just negativity.

 

You need to give them idea's of how they could improve the Brute being a Brute player yourself. You must have some idea's surely after making so many posts about the subject?

 

 

Make a change to the Brute ATOs based on any of the hundreds of suggestions

 

do you actually want me to go down a top ten list of the way to help Brutes?    you do realize any suggestions to improve Brutes will be mocked by forum trolls, or (worse yet) actually provoke real fear reactions from Tank and Scrapper aficionados.  Lastly, all of these suggestions will be ignored

 

on the surface my reaction may seem negative 

 

underneath what looks like knee jerk negativity is an actual analysis of the state of Brutes.  They have never been buffed.  They will never be buffed.  Tanks will be buffed. With AoEs. With T1/T2 fluidity in build choice.  With something else in a few months.  All ATs gets ATOs.  It is no random chance Brutes ATOs suck and Tanks ATOs are very good and Scrappers ATOs are great.  If you think that was random chance I truly feel sorry for you
 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Snarky

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

The only change the current Dev team are willing to make to Brutes would be to adversely affect them. Bringing Brute ATO procs up to be as useful as other AT procs works against the goal.  Now, if you have an interesting idea to buff Scrappers or Tanks they might give you a listen.

 

I suspect room for improvements to the Brute ATO to be heavily constrained. Damage cap was lowered, so anything which directly increases damage would be going against that.  But so too would doing something to increase survivability because that translates into fewer slots dedicated to survival and more available to boost damage. Can't improve To-Hit because that would make Brutes the go to for dealing with harder content and end with more damage going out that other ATs. 

 

 

[Gobbledigook]

The Brute did not need buffing before. they actual showed it over performed some. Times change and the Tanker community wanted some Tanker love which the developers agreed with. Was it a little more than expected? probably, it was for me anyway. But the Tanker is so much better now, but i would not be against cutting the extra AoE radius in half either. But it should never go back to where it was, that would be a slap in the face to all those that asked/wanted the buffs.

 

Fury is very easy to maintain. Maybe if it were not so easy then the rewards could be greater. Slower to build up and maintain but to greater levels than we have now.

They could have stances as i mentioned above. 

Perhaps the Brute just needs some mitigation of some sort adding to fury. So as damage increases so does survival. But it should be slower to gain.

 

At least making some positive suggestions is better than posting numerous "Doom and Gloom" threads and offering nothing.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Infinitum]

8 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

What is it you would actually like them to do with Brutes now @Snarky? You made enough threads about the woes of the Brute, so tell us what you would do with them please.

 

Good luck with that one.

 

I asked that question in the brute coffin thread and got an education on painting oil canvas and statements of being undead and dodging the hunters. Hehe

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

Good luck with that one.

 

I asked that question in the brute coffin thread and got an education on painting oil canvas and statements of being undead and dodging the hunters. Hehe

I am flattered you remembered.  I am hoping I can string a few memorable phrases into a book I am writing and get a late life career in pulp fiction going!

[Infinitum]

18 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I am flattered you remembered.  I am hoping I can string a few memorable phrases into a book I am writing and get a late life career in pulp fiction going!

 

You are unforgettable Snarky.  I mean that with all kindness.

[Captain Paragon]

Not to side rail the thread but does anyone want the original defiance back on blasters? Having like 1hp means you can 1 shot most things! Totally crazy would be funny to see it with a fully kitted out incarnate blapper now.

 

[Rahabina]

On 10/1/2022 at 4:23 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

@Snarkywas just contemplating rolling a sentinel so maybe he actually did.

 

That said I really dug the old school brute/fury, actually scaling to 775% damage, able to get there solo, but limited by their survivability, endurance, and mob density.

 

I was like the Kool-Aid man knocking down walls and getting people hopped up on flavored sugar water as I smashed and smashed.

 

I just can't get into sentinels 

[Snarky]

13 hours ago, Rahabina said:

I just can't get into sentinels 

I did roll a Sentinel.  Not my first. The damage is still lackluster in my opinion. As I pointed out in a (hotly debated) thread in Sentinel forum I can out damage a Sentinel easily on any Blaster, then build and play the Blaster a certain way (sacrificing damage) and be as survivable as a Sentinel 99% time.  So then I rolled an AR/Dev Blaster.  Which I like, but does not fit my theme.  Long story short I am trying to make a Dark/Dark Corruptor work.  I play in close, but once you floor enemies accuracy down to Stormtrooper level it hardly matters. 

[Sovera]

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

I did roll a Sentinel.  Not my first. The damage is still lackluster in my opinion. As I pointed out in a (hotly debated) thread in Sentinel forum I can out damage a Sentinel easily on any Blaster, then build and play the Blaster a certain way (sacrificing damage) and be as survivable as a Sentinel 99% time.  So then I rolled an AR/Dev Blaster.  Which I like, but does not fit my theme.  Long story short I am trying to make a Dark/Dark Corruptor work.  I play in close, but once you floor enemies accuracy down to Stormtrooper level it hardly matters. 

 

While I still advise Sentinels for new players I am not sure if it is my experience as a CoH player or the lack of soloing on my side, but the last Blaster I played must have had one death to its name and I built for 33% defense figuring if I took agro I'd gobble a small purple, but only if and when, not something I'd expect to live under 24/7.

 

This is, of course, not so much the AT or the build as choosing a ranged only Blaster, not being eager and blast without a Tank. But at some point I would solo the cysts and the surrounding bosses in the ITF and still be fine.

[Gobbledigook]

The changes to Sentinels has not inspired me to play them over my Fortunata. Yes the Fort is on a slightly lower damage scale now but they bring so much more.

They do give more damage type attacks and armor choices though.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Gobbledegook