Make Mastermind Attacks Not a Liability

[Clave Dark 5]

10 hours ago, Halae said:

Just to pipe in on this specific bit more than anything else, but this is pretty unusual. [etc.]

I took one of the poet set attacks and Arcane Bolt for my last MM, which wasn't a pet-less build.  Both are slotted with KD procs, and combined with the damage the bots put out, they're pretty helpful.

[plainguy]

Mastermind have had endurance issues for years.. 

I posted this several times on this forum. 

This is a compounding issue.

Masterminds can do amazing things if the build is fine tuned and everything works out right.. 

OR

 

They flop like a stack of cards. 

And like many primaries and secondary's when you pick the correct 2 its better. 
EG.. Sentinel DP/Super Reflexes.. Yes lower DPS but full defense cap easily, same for Ninjutsu. 

It's these things that just pile on top of each other. 
As a simple example Range Cap hover blaster, easily obtained on all blasters. That alone can put you at a 3/8 mission setting. But you also have some extra powers you can pick that are not conducive to obtaining this type of build

These types of things are not always possible on Masterminds. 
Even when they fixed group fly, you would think having flying armada of robots would be good, but it wasn't  it was just too clunky and unless you had a outdoor mission it was useless.  Pets would get stuck all over the place. 

With Masterminds its death by many cuts.. 

Again as I have also said.. I just believe Masterminds are just too hard for the devs to handle.  How the coding is set up.. So on and so forth.. Too much effort for possibly so little results or even no results.. 

Do you tackle an issue in all these 4 archtypes sentinel, blaster, corruptor, brute in 20 hours OR do you "TRY" to fix a mastermind issue.. Limited time would dictate I can fix 4 issues instead of hoping to fix 1. 

Again no clue, as the devs never said hey this is the issue, changing the endurance numbers breaks this or that for them. 
All I know is they had this discord chat, which is listed and the request are there.. 

As another example to my point.. They "Fixed" the Robot bubble issue, but this fix came with a decrease in defenses. So its clear they couldn't fix it without the loss as it was too much trouble. 

But still they are an unique archtype for any game.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by plainguy

[UltraAlt]

On 10/6/2022 at 8:41 PM, Lost Deep said:

The Blaster versions also do more damage, as they should, but the truth of the matter is that Mastermind just spends more End for comparable effects.

 

Now, I'm not going to claim Mastermind attacks should get a damage buff. They shouldn't. When you want to do damage as a Mastermind, what you do is you tell all your Henchmen to attack that target. Your personal contribution to damage is, even at the best of times, negligible much after level 20.

Well, then, what are they for?

 

When you are in tanking/pets-in-defense mode, the mastermind attacks are there to draw fire and to debuff/distract target so  your minions can defeat them.

 

On 10/6/2022 at 8:41 PM, Lost Deep said:

They're buttons to hit during combat. They're little things to do so that you don't get bored herding the henchmen. The issue is that if they're used this way, basically just pushing one whenever you feel like it because you want to contribute to the fight, they can be dangerous.

 

Not if you are in tanking/pets-in-defense mode ... especially if you can heal your pets.

 

On 10/6/2022 at 8:41 PM, Lost Deep said:

Provoke from Presence: A taunt to get enemies to come into your minion's murder range!

 

If you use the basic mastermind attacks they are single target, Provoke  = When you have established that a fight is absolutely necessary, you step up to take the lead, provoking the attention of several targets at a targeted location. Use this to pull the attention of your foes off of an ally in trouble. This provocation effect is not as powerful as similar powers used by Tankers, and also has a chance to miss.

 

On 10/6/2022 at 8:41 PM, Lost Deep said:

But, the question stands: why take a Mastermind attack when I could have any of these?

 

To pull an enemy to attack you while you are in tanking/pets-in-defense mode so your minions can jump on them ... all the while your minions are soaking some of the damage you take.

 

It may seem that I'm pushing tanking/pets-in-defense mode. Yeah, I am. It seems to work for me when playing multiple types of masterminds.

 

 

[Canadian Anvil]

I don't disagree. When I use non pet Primary powers, my END drains. But for the most part, I do not find this to be the case. I use my pets very offensively and usually slot them for DMG instead of PROC. I find the liability of my MMs is controlling my pets - especially in areas with multiple mobs. Even defensive settings will not stop until the pet's area of detection is cleared. (And I do like it that way.) I do find endurance drain a problem with almost every thing I build without slotting IOs that help, for example, I only slot Stamina with three END MODS (I know the third only gives a +3.x, and sometimes I think I could better slot if I reduced it to two). I also find tactics make a big difference. For example, I will sometimes build an MM based upon the original dev's concept of it being the villain's tank (Stealth (Def (all)), Rune of Protection (Res (All DMG...)) if needed, Tough and Weave (as you mentioned), Combat Jumping (+Def(All), Res(Immob)) as it works when in the air (Mystic Flight to get Run of Protection). (NOTE: I could take Provoke over Combat Jump but when teaming, it's a battle of attention with Tanks, Brutes, Scrappers, and sometimes Stalkers.) I also make sure to get my Accolades that buff END, recovery and DEF: The Atlas Medallion, Portal Jockey, Geas of the Kind Ones, and Eye of the Magus (uses when Rune of Protection is recharging).

• set pets to stay
• use buffs
• run or teleport into a mob (usually stealth)
• drop MM attack to get the attention
• set pets (or lead pet like Dire Wolf) to attack my target. The rest of the pets will defend the lead pet if attacked within their detection rage - or so it appears to be.

As mentioned above, my problem is controlling the pets. A recall/To Me command is what I find missing. In the case of Bots/ranged pets, I will use a Stay Aggressive command and pull them to their pet's range.

 

SIDE NOTE really relating to this post: My favorite MM at this moment is a Beast/Electrical and I do have poor END because I use Swarm and Raven a lot to Debuff for my DMG slotted pets. I SAP the enemy with Shock, Discharge, and Faraday Cage and keep my pets close and hope I have enough chain (or in line) to get a END boost from Energized Circuit. But as I am slotting powers more and more with good IOs the END problem is becoming less and less.

[Rudra]

Go to. If you want pets to come back to you, use the go to command. Just click a spot near you and they all come running to you. (Edit: Or set them to passive until they get back to you. Both options work.)

Edited October 11, 2022 by Rudra

[Riverdusk]

11 hours ago, plainguy said:

But still they are an unique archtype for any game.

 

 

Very much.  Despite the issues they may have, I still find them unique and fun to play.  

[Sylapsis]

On 10/8/2022 at 6:09 AM, Completist said:

there shouldn't be a half-dozen pool powers you are inclined to take before even considering three of your Primary AT powers. 

I feel like this ought to be repeated a bit louder. The three attacks in each mastermind's powerset are primary powers. Primary. If any other AT had a third of its primary powerset heavily penalized based on the argument the remainder were considered more intrinsic to the AT, my bet is that there would be some confusion.

These three powers shouldn't be dead picks, or only have a token effect. They should be treated as primary powers, held to equal standards. And all primary powers ought to be meaningful and valid picks (even though some may be more situational than others). That's why I feel that the recent changes to Necromancy, Ninja, and Robotics are steps in the right direction: by adding a synergy rider to the powers, rather than simply raising damage.

(But, as discussed above, the endurance cost ought to be looked at again, in the spirit of fairness.)

[Rudra]

The MM primary innate attacks (as opposed to pet attacks) are not dead picks, token picks, or invalid picks. (Unless you want to tell me I'm building my MMs wrong. And my MMs have no problems killing anything in the game unless it has AoE nukes to wipe out my pets with.)

 

If players want the END cost of those attacks checked and possibly modified, that's fine. If you want to say those powers are not useful to you, that is also fine. Everyone has their preference for what powers they find useful on an AT. Please refrain from making blanket assertions that MM innate attacks are dead, token, or invalid though.

[Completist]

Hmm @Rudra and I usually agree but I dee-clare this has struck a chord. 

First: My experience of petless MM comes from running mercs/traps until around 20. So the story of being exhausted by greens and blues, while true, is from the lower levels where slots are scarce. Once slotted up in the 30s you can confidently take on whites and yellows with those basic attacks and secondaries and only sometimes have to run away to rest. 

 

Second: Comparing MM attacks has to temp powers is problematic. Instead compare any of the T3 single target attacks with Arcane Bolt: They're equivalent.

 

And thus: Look. The truth is MMs damage comes from their pets; they don't need strong ranged blasts. And those attacks do have uses: aggroing foes to trigger bodyguard, finishing off stragglers, giving you some buttons to push. Or just the satisfaction of shooting some dudes. But they are weak powers, numerically, especially the ones that don't have additional debuffing/utility effects. 

 

If they were better in the first half of the level progression, I don't think anyone would notice and we wouldn't be having this conversation. But lots of people do notice, and many don't bother slotting more than one of them.  What would be the harm in making them good? 

[Rudra]

29 minutes ago, Completist said:

Hmm @Rudra and I usually agree but I dee-clare this has struck a chord. 

First: My experience of petless MM comes from running mercs/traps until around 20. So the story of being exhausted by greens and blues, while true, is from the lower levels where slots are scarce. Once slotted up in the 30s you can confidently take on whites and yellows with those basic attacks and secondaries and only sometimes have to run away to rest. 

 

Second: Comparing MM attacks has to temp powers is problematic. Instead compare any of the T3 single target attacks with Arcane Bolt: They're equivalent.

 

And thus: Look. The truth is MMs damage comes from their pets; they don't need strong ranged blasts. And those attacks do have uses: aggroing foes to trigger bodyguard, finishing off stragglers, giving you some buttons to push. Or just the satisfaction of shooting some dudes. But they are weak powers, numerically, especially the ones that don't have additional debuffing/utility effects. 

 

If they were better in the first half of the level progression, I don't think anyone would notice and we wouldn't be having this conversation. But lots of people do notice, and many don't bother slotting more than one of them.  What would be the harm in making them good? 

As I previously stated, I don't care if the MM innate attacks are improved. I entered this thread asking why a comment about the Robotics MM's attacks should be biased to start instead of mid or end. I wasn't opposing anything in the thread, just asking why. It wasn't until the comment that MM innate attacks are outclassed by even temp powers even after the attacks are enhanced that I got to the point of opposing anything. And even at that, I only oppose that claim.

 

Play MMs however you want. Ask for improvements if you want. Yes, I have to be stringent with my attacks in the early levels of play/development, typically only using 1 toggle if I'm using my innate attacks to keep END cost down, but I have not seen what others claim. Managing END is part of the game with all ATs. Especially when you're a lowbie character trying to build up.

 

I'm fine with the END cost of MM powers being reduced. I said that in this thread already. I'm not fine with comparisons that are thrown out for the sake of emphasizing something when they have no basis in fact. When treated as any other attack from any other AT and slotted as such, MM innate attacks are not as bad as claimed. Are they weaker than the other ATs even when slotted for active combat use as primary attacks? Definitely most of them at least, but not worse than the unenhanceable temp powers. So what if I 4-slot or 5-slot MM innate attacks? I've not seen any attacks with less than 4 slots for active use in combat anyway.

[Sylapsis]

For me, the best outcome would be a re-envisioning of the three primary attack powers so that they fit in better with the theme of the AT: to bring in, and enable, your pets (which may, or may not, include your teammates 🙂 ).

Taking a quick peek at the power sets and their attack powers show me this:

 

Beasts: T1 Single target (-defence), T3 Single target (KB, -to hit), T5 Cone (-defence)

Demons: T1 Single target (-resist), T3 Single target (KB, -resist), T5 Cone (KB, -resist)

Mercs: T1 Single target (-defence), T3 Single target (KB), T5 AoE (KB)  >>> Page 5 adds Focus Fire for bonus pet damage on all three powers

Necro: T1 Single target (-to hit), T3 Single target (-to hit), T5 Single target (self heal, -to hit)   >>> Page 5 adds chance to spawn unique spectre pet to each power

Ninjas: T1 Single target (none), T3 Single target (none), T5 Cone (none) >>> Page 5 adds bonus pet critical hit chance on all three powers

Robots: T1 Single target (none), T3 Single target (KB), T5 AoE (Stun) >>> Page 5 adds -regen on all three powers

Thugs: T1 Single target (none), T3 Single target (KB), T5 Cone (KB)

 

At a glance, I feel that some of these attacks synergise more with your pets than others. For instance, -defence or -resist are great force multipliers for your group, and -to hit is a good survivability tool. Knockback, though? That feels a bit more... situational (especially powers with unreliable chance to KB). I recognise that all of these powers have their riders inherited from their parent power sets. So let's add to them instead, just like Page 5 added to the others.

And make those riders impactful. Equally, or even more so, than any damage the powers deals. Make those powers enable your pets to do their thing. This would move them away from being "just attacks", and the connotations we attach to that idea, and come to think of them as attack strategies.

And that, I feel, would help making them fit the theme of the AT better.

[Yaliw]

I think the new changes to the attacks are a step in the right direction. I'm not a huge fan of merc or robot attacks but I don't hate them. Necro attacks are now very fun and I think is an A+

[MistressOhm]

At starting levels, the Mastermind "blast" attacks are basically personal attacks, they don't have a crew yet, so they need something for offense.

 

Later however, as the MM gains more pets (and depends on those pets to do the heavy lifting), the personal 'blasts' are used for two things:

 

1) Provoke a spawn into attacking (and getting the pets to respond to that attack with 'overwhelming force'.)

2) Finish off a mob that has decided "discretion is the better part of valor" and is running away.

 

Everything else in the set is about making the henchmen more lethal, more efficient, and less likely to get killed.   The secondaries are support sets for the "team" that the mastermind and their pets make.  The MM themselves are a support character, they're 'in charge' of the crew, but they don't do the work, the crew does.   Without the crew, the MM is very much a weakened version, and that's true to the archetype.  "I don't have powers. I have friends.  THEY have powers."