Why are MM pet level shifts still a thing?

[ArchmageMC]

If you didn't know, MM pets have a negative level shift applied to them of -2 on the minion pets and -1 on the LT class pets. This is a core issue of MMs that would be a small, but huge change for the class due to the massive, massive penalties these level shifts cause the pets. So much so, that just removing this pet level shift system. (Or making the Supremacy aura give Minion pets +2 levels and Lt. pets +1 levels to ovveride the level shift in a more hacky/janky way if the pet level shift code is in some massive spaghetti block code...) will buff MMs considerably, far more than just changes to the powersets would give.

 

In fact removing or effectively removing these level shifts will cut down on MM set rebalancing work considerably.

 

Why should these level shifts go away?

 

Everything at +4, since thats the most commonly ran thing.

 

Minion pets have 20% tohit compared to players with 39% tohit

Lt. pets have 30% tohit compared to players 39% tohit.

 

Minions have -def somewhere in the 30% range, needing 75% def to be softcapped.

Lt. have -14% def, meaning they need incarnate cap to be softcapped.

 

Minions deal 70% less damage

Lt. deal 53% less damage.

(yes, level shifts of this degree cause massive damage penalties.)

 

And of course

 

Minion pets have 48% less res

Lt. pets have 20ish% less res

 

 

 

Removing the pet level shifts will just greatly help all of MM's core issues and is a much much faster way of fixing the class than rebalancing the MM pet sets themselves. Once the level shifts have been removed it will be much easier to evaluate each MM set as MM sets that put their damage into the minion pets will be made much better, while MM pet sets that put their damage in the boss pet wont change too much.

[Yaliw]

Judging by the changes made this page, I'm willing to bet its not that simple. I can't speak for the dev team but it's the #1 issue with MM's and yet nobody has been able to change it.

[ArchmageMC]

23 minutes ago, Yaliw said:

Judging by the changes made this page, I'm willing to bet its not that simple. I can't speak for the dev team but it's the #1 issue with MM's and yet nobody has been able to change it.

 

 

Talking on the discord, it seems the issue isn't removing the shift, they can do that, but the issues it causes with MM pet sets in relation to each other. But with the recent topic I just put out saying how each MM pet set is supposed to be a mini AT, that shouldn't be too much of an issue with that design space in mind.

 

Either way, I'm very excited to see level shifts removed at some point in a testing enviorment so we can see how well it fixes MMs xD.

Edited October 12, 2022 by ArchmageMC

[Doc_Scorpion]

Why are MM pet level shifts still a thing?  Because game balance is still a thing.  An MM with a full suite of unshifted pets is basically an entire almost full strength team all by their lonesome - especially once they've taken their T8 and T9.  They'd be significantly OP.

That could be fixed by downgrading the pets, but I'm not convinced MM's would be in a significantly better place afterwards.  (Because, game balance would still be a thing.)

And it would be a significant task, because it really can't be done some now, some later.  You'd have to rework the pets at the same time to prevent OP MM's from roaming the landscape in the meantime.

[Greycat]

It should also be mentioned the shifts come as you have *more* of each tier coming out.

 

A newbie MM's tier-1 minion at level 1 *will* be the same level. When you get to summoning two of them, they're -1, and the T2 minion is the same level, etc.

 

So, yes, they have a worse hit chance and such... but it's offset somewhat by having more hit *chances.* And that's not going into what effects the Mastermind's secondary (not to mention pool) choices may have on the ease to hit (or difficulty getting hit.)

 

I don't think getting rid of level shifts should be a thing, specifically for that case. However, after we see how the next page's MM changes settle in - well, I rarely feel that any pool is needed for anyone (Nope, not even fighting or taking hasten,) but Masterminds often feel like they *really should* look into Leadership. Maybe something like a mini-inherent-leadership type buff (without toggles) - some additional +tohit when you have the first pet upgrade, some additional +damage on the second, or something, might help offset some of it.

 

... but again. Wait for the next issue to settle and see how the landscape looks for any sort of buff like that. Level shifts going away... that, I just don't see.

[biostem]

How about allowing MMs the choice of summoning only 1 T1 or T2, but have them be of the same level as you...

Edited October 13, 2022 by biostem

[Greycat]

Only concern with that is just how much more spaghetti we'd be throwing into the mix. ;)

[Rudra]

36 minutes ago, biostem said:

How about allowing MMs the choice of summoning only 1 T1 or T2, but have them be of the same level as you...

It's my personal preference, but I would rather not have less pets. Even if it meant each tier pet retained the MM's full level. More pets = better Bodyguard mode. More pets = more chances to actually hurt those annoying targets that go MoG. More pets = more options for controlling the flow of battle. That's just my personal preference though.

 

Edit: And as easily as my Oni or Assault Bot get nuked from time to time? More pets = more ability to keep fighting and holding enemy aggro while I summon replacements and re-equip them before I'm left petless and then dead.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Rudra

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

I don't think getting rid of level shifts should be a thing, specifically for that case. However, after we see how the next page's MM changes settle in - well, I rarely feel that any pool is needed for anyone (Nope, not even fighting or taking hasten,) but Masterminds often feel like they *really should* look into Leadership. Maybe something like a mini-inherent-leadership type buff (without toggles) - some additional +tohit when you have the first pet upgrade, some additional +damage on the second, or something, might help offset some of it.

 

... but again. Wait for the next issue to settle and see how the landscape looks for any sort of buff like that. Level shifts going away... that, I just don't see.

I don't see adding mini-inherent leadership buffs to MMs changing MMs probability of taking the Leadership pool. No pool power set is needed for any AT, but like you said, since MMs are their own team, taking the Leadership pool makes sense. Giving MMs mini-inherent leadership buffs just means they get more buffs when they take the Leadership pool.

 

(Edit: And I am against taking any pool power, let alone set, and making it inherent for any AT. I know that is not your intent with that post, so I am not saying this to you specifically. Just noting that incorporating Leadership in part or whole as inherent to MMs is a bad idea. At least to me.)

Edited October 13, 2022 by Rudra

[Wavicle]

I believe they are currently working on bringing the lesser performing MM primaries up to par so that THEN they may look at the AT as a whole.

[MistressOhm]

On 10/12/2022 at 7:47 PM, biostem said:

How about allowing MMs the choice of summoning only 1 T1 or T2, but have them be of the same level as you...

 

IF the game re-scales the remaining pets, pets can be dismissed singly, by tier, or as a group, so this shouldn't be an issue.   However, I haven't tested this.  What happens when a T1 pet gets smashed?  Do the remaining ones re-scale their level?  if they're only scaled at summon, then this isn't a solution.

 

BUT.... there's nothing that keeps you from punting someone off the team.  Target any pet and type "/petcom dismiss" in the chatbar. Macro it and you've a "You're Out Of The Band" button.

[Darkaiser]

Considering how poorly MMs perform in the high-end content, I have no problem with them having some power creep.

 

The idea that even-level pets would equate to a team is nuts given that they have limited attacks, even more limited defenses, and despite all of the brave attempts to improve them their AI is still roughly the level of a brain-damaged football player during the off-season.

 

As a matter of balance, how many Brutes, Tanks, Doms, or Controllers have soloed the ITF or a Rikti Pylon? Quite a few, I'd wager. how many MMs have done it? Show me some footage and the build and we can talk. I'd LOVE to see a MM build for less than a half a billion that can contribute in an Incarnate Trial or a Hamidon.

 

PLEASE stop worrying about one of the least-potent ATs in the game (post-50 anyway) actually getting to the point where they're fun to play. OP is not going to be a factor.

[Doc_Scorpion]

2 minutes ago, Darkaiser said:

The idea that even-level pets would equate to a team is nuts

Right - multiple attackers with significant damage output as well as various secondary powers in no way equates to team.

No, they're not the greatest team ever, but they are very much a team.
 

 

5 minutes ago, Darkaiser said:

As a matter of balance, how many Brutes, Tanks, Doms, or Controllers have soloed the ITF or a Rikti Pylon? Quite a few, I'd wager. how many MMs have done it?

Drop by the Robotics Revamp thread over in the Beta forums where @Sir Myshkin discusses his solo tests against Rikti Pylons.
 

MM's may suck in post 50 play, but there's 49 levels before that which need to be considered as well.

[Darkaiser]

4 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Right - multiple attackers with significant damage output as well as various secondary powers in no way equates to team.

No, they're not the greatest team ever, but they are very much a team.
 

 

Drop by the Robotics Revamp thread over in the Beta forums where @Sir Myshkin discusses his solo tests against Rikti Pylons.
 

MM's may suck in post 50 play, but there's 49 levels before that which need to be considered as well.

My Blaster has 14 attacks on his power bars, all with at least 3 slots. My MM has three attacks...two fully slotted and one as an attack/taunt with 2 slots. All of my bots together don't make up the other 11 attacks.

 

"MM's may suck in post 50 play..." We agree on this at least. How about we fix the obviously broken stuff before we worry about MMs rising a handful of percent in the 'who's the most powerful' standings?

 

[Doc_Scorpion]

27 minutes ago, Darkaiser said:

My Blaster has 14 attacks on his power bars, all with at least 3 slots. My MM has three attacks...two fully slotted and one as an attack/taunt with 2 slots. All of my bots together don't make up the other 11 attacks.

Right.  Your math, not having 11 attacks, means each 'bot on a full team (six bots) has less than 1.8 attacks each.  Yeah, no.  Fully equipped and upgraded, the Battle Drones alone bring 9 attacks to the field. Protector Bots bring 6 (3*2), and the Assault Bot brings  another 3, for a total of 19.  (I leave it as an exercise for the student to work out whether 11 or 19 is the larger number.)

Not to mention it's not like your blaster cycles through all 14 attacks - more like 3-5 with the balance being either situational or longer recharge.  And also not to mention those six pets can fire off more attacks per unit time than any single blaster.  That is, just like a team of players can fire more attacks per unit time than any single player.

Another factor to consider is that an MM and his pets, just like a team, represent multiple targets for the mobs.  Your hypothetical blaster represents a solo player - a single target.

I give and grant that an MM's "team" is a bunch of bumbling sidekicked up semi-competent n00bs...  But they are absolutely, unquestionably, the equivalent of a team.

[Riverdusk]

Player-1 from another thread:

"Even Level pets are in the pipeline, but there is a lot of work associated with the change with how their stats, slotting, and other interactions come into play."

 

So, they are definitely looking at it.  They will then also look at "balance" I'm sure.  I'd have no problem if they "adjust" the tier 1 and 2 pets damage back down a bit to compensate.  My issue with MM pets has never really been with their damage, but with their survivability.  At least now that mercs damage seems to be fixed anyway.

 

Oh, and that still leaves the one other issue I have with them, and that is how slow they move, some of them more than others, necro probably the worst.  Even if they are "their own team", it doesn't matter much if by the time they arrive on scene to the next mob, the rest of your team has already defeated everything.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Riverdusk

[Rudra]

The speed of pets and their ability to keep up with the MM even when not using any travels, Sprint included, is my only real gripe with MMs. Pets do need to be able to keep up with their MM better in my opinion. Nothing better than going down a hall into a bunch of baddies only to find out your pets are still a ways behind you despite not using any powers of any kind to move your character faster.

[Lazarillo]

I feel like...balancing around +4 is kinda janky in the first place?  Then again, I don't run anything at +4 unless I'm on a team with a decent amount of support.  Personally, I find the combat far too tedious.  To that end, it shouldn't surprise me that MMs would be the same.  FWIW, I run my MMs at +1/+2, same as all my other characters, and the downshifted minions (who thus are at +4) seem to do just fine.  And when I take my MMs onto those teams where I'd also be doing +4 on, say, a Scrapper, they continue to do well.  As it is, I'll kinda echo Greycat's sentiment, at least with regard to offense:

On 10/12/2022 at 7:22 PM, Greycat said:

So, yes, they have a worse hit chance and such... but it's offset somewhat by having more hit *chances.* And that's not going into what effects the Mastermind's secondary (not to mention pool) choices may have on the ease to hit (or difficulty getting hit.)

There's also Supremacy, which exists in part to make up for that shifted difference.  Now, granted, pet survivability gets trickier, since one stray hit can ruin a pet's day if you're vastly outleveled.  But again, the same can be said for, say, a Controller.