Praetorian Levelling and Groups: A Conversation

[TomatoPhalanges]

Though I have my thoughts on this topic, this is ultimately more a desire to open up discussion on the general thoughts and feelings on Praetoria and their own motivations. I want to ask people, what would motivate you to create a Praetorian character and play through that with an intent to group with others to complete missions?

 

My own personal general thoughts and suggestions to open up the conversation, feel free to grab one or multiple at will and follow that/those thread/s:

• I simply do not play the content often because nobody else plays it. Like with redside grouping, I find it somewhat a chicken-and-egg situation in that regard, however that doesn't mean it's an unfixable problem, or at least untreatable.
• More explicitly group-specific content goldside (a couple short trials or task forces for example, filling the space of Posi and Penny in terms of their place in the player experience) might encourage groups in other goldside content (even if said groups are only 2-4 players, it's better than nothing) or at the very least, increase goldside population. Redside needs a Posi equivalent too, for that matter, but that's Redside. Perhaps the lower interest in grouping in redside and goldside is connected in that matter, as Posi 1 and 2 are an incredibly popular element of the blueside levelling experience for a number of reasons (Accolade completion criteria leading to increased player power alongside fun, accessible missions and a very low level requirement).
• A radio equivalent might have value in injecting variety into the Praetorian experience. Flavor on that could vary from 'tunnel expeditions' in the Underground to your standard variety of missions.
• Perhaps more value should be given to the three outdoor events that take place in Praetoria's core zones?
• People want to level quickly, especially in groups, but levelling quickly specifically harms the Praetorian experience, leading to a severely conflicting situation. The level brackets being as slim as they are is a significant negative. Nobody likes starting a story, outlevelling it and never finishing it, and Praetoria's contacts are so interwoven narratively that this has a pretty detrimental effect. Perhaps broadening the level range of each of the zones and their mission arcs would have a positive impact? Or perhaps implementing forced exemplaring within the zones and missions within them?
• While Praetoria does feature more challenging content than the levelling experience in blueside for similar levels, I do not personally consider that a detriment, and it doesn't make me want to play the content with a group anyy less as a result. If anything, if player counts were higher in Praetoria it would be a motivator to do so.
• I don't think AE Farming (ie 'i dont play Praetorian content to level because AE is faster/more convenient/etc) needs to be factored heavily into this conversation necessarily, as Praetorians have AE access via Pocket D, and the nature of farming impacts the whole game, including blueside, not just Praetoria. If we want to discuss AE players, though, they still participate in levelling Task Forces at max level due to seeking merits for WST and wanting to finish their Accolade badges. This ties somewhat into my second earlier point, though does further beg the question of a TFC equivalent for Goldside (as well as one for Redside). If player power creep is a concern regarding that, then perhaps those could reward, say, 20 Prismatic Aether on completion? Or some Super Packs, perhaps? Some sort of notable incentive to completing the accolade that any player would want on just about every character.

 

Thanks in advance for taking the time to lend your voice to this discussion, and I'm looking forward to seeing other opinions, discussion and suggestions on what would improve this particular element of the game that is, in my opinion, so deeply underappreciated due to not quite hitting the mark it needs to hit.

Edited October 22, 2022 by TomatoPhalanges
Typo

[Greycat]

My general thoughts / attitude -

If you want to level quickly, don't play Praetoria. (Unless you just want the title.)

I almost exclusively solo any Praetorian because, to me, the point of the zone exists in the storylines and choices, and teams just make you rush past it (and make choices you might not go with.)

I generally *don't* play Praetoria in part because it was created in the era of "KNOW WHAT'S FUN? AMBUSHES! MORE AMBUSHES = MORE FUN!" and ... blah.

 

Praetoria makes more sense as a storyline than a "side," frankly.

[TomatoPhalanges]

11 minutes ago, Greycat said:

My general thoughts / attitude -

If you want to level quickly, don't play Praetoria. (Unless you just want the title.)

I almost exclusively solo any Praetorian because, to me, the point of the zone exists in the storylines and choices, and teams just make you rush past it (and make choices you might not go with.)

I generally *don't* play Praetoria in part because it was created in the era of "KNOW WHAT'S FUN? AMBUSHES! MORE AMBUSHES = MORE FUN!" and ... blah.

 

Praetoria makes more sense as a storyline than a "side," frankly.

 

I personally see potential value in Praetorian missions as an avenue for RP-heavy group levelling. You're right currently that 'if you want to level quickly, don't play Praetoria', but that generally leads to very very small numbers of people or characters even bothering with the content. Ultimately, one of the large motivators in this game to group with others is pace of XP gain. With the challenge provided by the enemy groups found in Praetoria, I think it's a missed opportunity to not enable team play more effectively for players who might want it. Doing so wouldn't hurt the solo experience within those zones whatsoever - in fact I think some of my suggestions would only improve it (the exemping suggestion for example).

 

If you ask me, Praetoria only makes more sense as a storyline than a 'side' because there simply aren't enough stories in it. For all the Praetoria burnout people experienced during live's later patches, it is a fairly rich and interesting setting within the CoH multiverse (certainly as interesting as either of the Primal cities), with each of the 6 zones (including First/Night Ward, and the Underground as an entire singular location) having a huge amount of potential for side-plots distinct from the core Loyalist v Resistance struggles and their lead into the war. There already are some - I'd consider the Syndicate and its narrative to be a sideplot, as would I consider the ghouls and their whole *gestures at that* to be one.

 

Interesting point about the ambushes, though. Personally they don't bother me at all, but minor modifications to mission content like that might not be a horrible idea if the devs think it would improve the content.

[Rudra]

Point is, is that it is already overly easy to outlevel Praetorian contacts while solo. So the xp gain enticement is there. Praetoria is heavy on ambushes and more difficult opponents, so xp gain is already fast. The only way people like me are able to play the content without fear is by turning off xp. Which is not something most teams would be willing to do. So how would you make Praetoria more team-based? The xp gain is already there and is the primary problem in trying to play the content in a cohesive manner. What else could be done? Especially if the goal is the playing of the content with a team.

 

Edit:

Adding TFs to Praetoria fails for a few reasons. First, because outleveling content is already a problem in Praetoria, so the TFs would just make it possible to completely miss entire level ranges. Second, because of the way Praetoria is set up, there is very little justification for a large scale endeavor by Powers Division. Hamidon is leaving Praetoria alone as part of his deal with Tyrant. The sonic fences keep any Hamidon (or other external forces in world) out of Praetoria City (all of its sections) lethally. The Syndicate are covert in that they are trying to operate under Tyrant's and the other Praetors' collective gazes. (That's why most of the Syndicate are psychics. They use their abilities to screen their activities from the Seers.) The Resistance is pretty well contained underground where the Ghouls are being released to terrorize and kill them. (And Vanessa Devore uses her psychic abilities to shield all of their minds as well.) Any large scale operations done by the Syndicate or the Resistance is very small scale compared to anything going on in Primal Earth. The Destroyers are a noticed problem, but even they are relatively contained compared to Primal Earth.

 

So what TF could be made that does not break the illusion so carefully maintained by Tyrant and the Praetors of Praetoria being a perfect utopia? Because as soon as anything like what we get for TFs/SFs in Primal Earth were to happen in Praetoria, the lie of Praetoria is exposed. Even the 3 events in the primary zones are specifically low-key and easily dismissed by the populace, contained to a very small area.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Rudra

[Darmian]

The levels of the zones/contacts from Nova to Night Ward would need shifting at the very least.  Not an easy ask I feel but probably one of the first things that could/should be done before any other content, whether new arcs to bridge the Neutropolis to First Ward gap and the gap between Night Ward and level 50, or a Strike Force.

 

 

[Astralock]

Gold side is a story-driven solo playing affair.  It was designed that way, and it should be played that way.  Playing it on a team is counter-productive and trying to make playing gold side on a team productive would require a complete redesign of the storylines and the entire teaming system.

 

I specifically like to play gold side because it is a story-driven solo playing affair.  I don't team for missions on any side (blue, red, or gold), because it's counter-productive to do so.  You don't get any reward merits, you out-level content that you actually want to do unless you turn XP off, you can't read most of the text even as team leader because teams are "go, go, go!  We don't have time for that!," and because of the alignment system teams outside of TFs/SFs/trials break when someone on the team goes to a SG base or Ouroboros.

 

So I play missions solo, and I enjoy doing so.  Especially red and gold sides.  I can't see changing gold side to make teaming more accessible without destroying what's there.  In actuality, to make teaming more accessible outside of TFs/SFs/trials would require a substantial revamp of the teaming system itself.

 

Edit: I should point that gold side already has a radio/newspaper equivalent with the Clockwork A87952 and The Message Man contacts in Nova Praetoria, Imperial City, and Neutropolis, and the various endless mission contacts in First Ward and Night Ward.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Astralock

[TomatoPhalanges]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Point is, is that it is already overly easy to outlevel Praetorian contacts while solo. So the xp gain enticement is there. Praetoria is heavy on ambushes and more difficult opponents, so xp gain is already fast. The only way people like me are able to play the content without fear is by turning off xp. Which is not something most teams would be willing to do. So how would you make Praetoria more team-based? The xp gain is already there and is the primary problem in trying to play the content in a cohesive manner. What else could be done? Especially if the goal is the playing of the content with a team.

This is essentially what I'm intending to discuss - there's no issues already with XP gain in my opinion, but I think more can be done to make it cohesive and play well for a group experience - notably without hurting the solo experience. Honestly, I think the idea I suggested of auto-exemplaring to the max level of the zones and arcs would be the true solve for the issue, allowing players to play the content even if they outlevel it, at whatever pace they wish. They may not get to use all their goodies immediately if they're following along the path as it goes, but that also means they can skip the parts they don't wish to play if they want to move forward to a later zone.

 

2 minutes ago, Darmian said:

The levels of the zones/contacts from Nova to Night Ward would need shifting at the very least.  Not an easy ask I feel but probably one of the first things that could/should be done before any other content, whether new arcs to bridge the Neutropolis to First Ward gap and the gap between Night Ward and level 50, or a Strike Force.

 

 

 

I'd LOVE to see pieces of Goldside content- whether an arc or Strike Force- branching the narrative gaps between the later zones. Strike Forces fitting that narrative context would likely also be great candidates for a Goldside TFC equivalent (alongside the earlier mentioned Yin/Posi equivalents).

 

2 minutes ago, Astralock said:

Gold side is a story-driven solo playing affair.  It was designed that way, and it should be played that way.  Playing it on a team is counter-productive and trying to make playing gold side on a team productive would require a complete redesign of the storylines and the entire teaming system.

 

I specifically like to play gold side because it is a story-driven solo playing affair.  I don't team for missions on any side (blue, red, or gold), because it's counter-productive to do so.  You don't get any reward merits, you out-level content that you actually want to do unless you turn XP off, you can't read most of the text even as team leader because teams are "go, go, go!  We don't have time for that!," and because of the alignment system teams outside of TFs/SFs/trials break when someone on the team goes to a SG base or Ouroboros.

 

So I play missions solo, and I enjoy doing so.  Especially red and gold sides.  I can't see changing gold side to make teaming more accessible without destroying what's there.  In actuality, to make teaming more accessible outside of TFs/SFs/trials would require a substantial revamp of the teaming system itself.

 

I think that you're right about Goldside being at its best currently as a solo playing affair, and I wouldn't want to hurt that experience whatsoever. I'm simply asking what changes would be necessary for people here to find themselves wanting to group on Goldside. You make a good point about reward merits - that's just a simple case of 'add them' though. If the missions of the same level of difficulty on the other sides of the game grant them, why not Praetoria?

I'm also of the opinion teaming in general for non-TF/SF content needs some updates to the reward structure (outside of XP) to make it more rewarding, but that's a much larger topic.

[Darmian]

6 minutes ago, Astralock said:

the alignment system teams outside of TFs/SFs/trials break when someone on the team goes to a SG base or Ouroboros.

 

As of the last update this doesn't happen any more.  Provided you stay in coop zones, and Ouro and bases now count as such. Meaning you can team with non Golds when doing an Ouro arc from a base.

[lemming]

I've run a bunch of characters via Praetoria.  Occasionally just wanted that origin and then leveled to 20 in AE.  Though done a few where I ran all the content before leaving and have one perma-Praetorian.    The leveling guide is very handy for that.

 

I've done almost all Praetoria solo.   It would be nice if there was a 40-50 zone for them.   Maybe based out of the island refuge that is in the Marchand arc?

 

Arcs could focus on rescuing people in Praetoria, getting bits of tech or lore out, etc...

 

Though would be good to revamp the alignments or have another level 40 or 50 mission arc that is similar to the level 20 mission, but more focused on now that Praetoria is more a dead zone.

 

[Completist]

3 hours ago, TomatoPhalanges said:

People want to level quickly, especially in groups, but levelling quickly specifically harms the Praetorian experience, leading to a severely conflicting situation. The level brackets being as slim as they are is a significant negative. Nobody likes starting a story, outlevelling it and never finishing it, and Praetoria's contacts are so interwoven narratively that this has a pretty detrimental effect. Perhaps broadening the level range of each of the zones and their mission arcs would have a positive impact? Or perhaps implementing forced exemplaring within the zones and missions within them?

 

The major issue is the large amount of content in very limited level brackets. If they simply got rid of the level cap on all those arcs, players could play through the story of Praetoria without skipping every possible mob or disabling XP. That would be huge. 

[Rudra]

The brackets are the same as for red side and blue side. Chloe is available up until level 10. Hit 11? She stops being available. The problem is not the bracket size. The problem is how quickly you level gold side compared to red or blue. And that is partially due to the sheer number of ambushes you are not allowed to skip and the increased xp the more difficult foes give.

[krj12]

The biggest issues I have with gold side, other than no one goes there:

 

1.   Many of the missions are far more difficult than your typical fare in blue side.   While some may like the extra challenge,

I find them annoying.   They need to tone down the missions, especially the ones with non-stop ambushes.

2.  The final missions feature a couple of EBs,  need to be able to downshift them to bosses when solo.  Some of my characters

simply couldn't defeat them.  

3.  Would be very nice if gold side could have content all the way to level 50.   A lot of work, but without it, gold side will 

continue to be fairly empty.

4.  Radio missions would be a nice to have.

5.  Some way to easily go back and forth between blue and gold side, without the "you have to finish the final mission arc before you can get out of here".

 

[Rudra]

1) Gold side was originally presented as a more difficult option for players as compared to red or blue sides. That was basically the point of making a Praetorian character.

2) If you are referring to the characters I think you are, they are actually AVs. So they are already scaled down as EBs.

3) Praetoria was never actually meant for players to get all the way through the game on. Especially since all the end game content has the players fighting against Praetoria to protect Primal Earth. That said? I'm fine with Praetorian characters being able to get to 50. It's just the transition to dealing with the end game content such as incarnates that has me wondering how to do so without throwing the story out on its ear.

4)

7 hours ago, Astralock said:

Edit: I should point that gold side already has a radio/newspaper equivalent with the Clockwork A87952 and The Message Man contacts in Nova Praetoria, Imperial City, and Neutropolis, and the various endless mission contacts in First Ward and Night Ward.

5) The concern here, that I can see, is having the Praetorian characters running against Praetoria in a lot of the 40+ content. It would be nice to be able to team with blue and red side characters though.

[Glacier Peak]

I like Praetoria. I don't think anything needs changed to meet my needs. I'm also indifferent to any changes to address other players desires. Happy either way. Have at it and good luck!

[Doc_Scorpion]

10 hours ago, TomatoPhalanges said:

People want to level quickly, especially in groups, but levelling quickly specifically harms the Praetorian experience, leading to a severely conflicting situation. The level brackets being as slim as they are is a significant negative. Nobody likes starting a story, outlevelling it and never finishing it, and Praetoria's contacts are so interwoven narratively that this has a pretty detrimental effect. Perhaps broadening the level range of each of the zones and their mission arcs would have a positive impact? Or perhaps implementing forced exemplaring within the zones and missions within them?

There's already a solution to that problem - the XP lock.

[Grouchybeast]

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

That said? I'm fine with Praetorian characters being able to get to 50. It's just the transition to dealing with the end game content such as incarnates that has me wondering how to do so without throwing the story out on its ear.

 

Considering that the post-Magisterium trial arcs can be run from level 35, that particular horse is long bolted.

[Rudra]

And out of those post-Magisterium arcs, how many pit the character against Praetoria as opposed to helping the Praetorians settle into Primal Earth or defend their Last Bastion against Hamidon? Pretty sure the number of those arcs that has the player fighting Praetoria is 0. So no, the horse has not bolted. There is a difference between the trials with their assaults on Praetoria and fighting the Praetors including Tyrant, and the after trial arcs helping the people pick up the pieces of their lives.

 

Edit: If anything, those arcs are in line with the First Ward arcs. Having the player try to help the regular Praetorian citizens survive in difficult circumstances.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Rudra

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

And out of those post-Magisterium arcs, how many pit the character against Praetoria as opposed to helping the Praetorians settle into Primal Earth or defend their Last Bastion against Hamidon? Pretty sure the number of those arcs that has the player fighting Praetoria is 0. So no, the horse has not bolted. There is a difference between the trials with their assaults on Praetoria and fighting the Praetors including Tyrant, and the after trial arcs helping the people pick up the pieces of their lives.

 

Eh?  Of course the players aren't fighting against Praetoria in those arcs, because at that point the Praetorian war has already been won!  That's the whole issue: Marchand's arc (available at level 30) takes place after the war against Praetoria chronologically, but can be played through by a player character long before they can actually take part in the War. 

 

The arc begins by saying that Cole has been defeated and is in custody, and explains the post-trial fates of other high-level Praetorian.  The players meet and fight with/against some of the major Praetorian characters long before they 'meet' them again for the first time as Incarnates.  Marchand references the Magesterium and other Trials.  Marauder even talks to the player character about fighting them during the Lambda Trial, 20 levels before they can possibly run the Lambda Trial.

 

I assume the Live devs were under pressure to provide both end-game and mid-level content, and so fudged the timeline so they could kill two birds with on piece of content.  I'm sure they were doing their best under difficult circumstances, but it does make a mess of the timeline.

[Rudra]

That would be my point. The post-Magisterium arcs do not have Praetorian characters fighting against Praetoria in defense of Primal Earth. You jump from First Ward to Night Ward and then to after the war. There is a continuity there that is not disrupted by the incarnate trials. Until the Praetorian character does the incarnate trials. The chronology for access may be wrong because you can access the post-war content before the war content, but story-wise? You are still a Praetorian fighting for the sake of your fellow Praetorians. The disconnect is when you get access to the incarnate trials. That is what I am referring to.

 

There is no issue with Praetorians getting to 50, or just going through First Ward and then jumping into Number 6's arc or doing the Provost Marchand arc or the Mr. G arc. First Ward was not involved in the war anyway since it is basically the banish zone for citizens the Praetors wanted disappeared but not necessarily murdered. And the Praetorian character is not jumping through logic loops to justify suddenly fighting against Praetoria when moving between those arcs.

[Darmian]

Marchand and Mr. G's arcs do have different responses here and there for Praetorian origin characters as opposed to Primal origin characters.

[Completist]

On 10/22/2022 at 5:57 PM, Rudra said:

The brackets are the same as for red side and blue side. Chloe is available up until level 10. Hit 11? She stops being available. The problem is not the bracket size. The problem is how quickly you level gold side compared to red or blue. And that is partially due to the sheer number of ambushes you are not allowed to skip and the increased xp the more difficult foes give.

The brackets should be bigger on red/blue side, too! Changing it would probably stray too far from 'classic CoH', whatever that is, but I'm all for it. Locking story content after you level up means going to new areas for new contacts, which is irritating when you're playing in a group. The usual vet response here is "just do it in Ouro", but Ouro doesn't have all the content, just the story arcs. 

 

In Praetoria that problem is exacerbated, because are prevented from playing with the rest of the player base until you're "done" with the story. And the difficulty is tuned for big teams/high difficulty which, like you said, generates a high amount of XP unless you've got it turned off. I think it would be a reasonable compromise to un-cap only the Praetoria arcs, which would also spread that content over a much higher level range for players who want to stay gold and do it all.