about Fighting

[Wavicle]

I personally think it's right for Tough to have a prerequisite.

But I completely agree with those who point out how terrible it feels to have to take a power you aren't going to use to get it.

What would people feel about adding a third t1 to the set? (OR folding Boxing and Kick into 1, by making "it" somewhat better, similar to Arcane Bolt, perhaps, and giving Cross Punch the same buffs with just the one prereq?)

The idea I had was the following:

 

Sturdy

Auto

5% Defense Debuff Resistance (same value for all ATs)

Enhanceable, accepts Defense sets

Edited December 2, 2022 by Wavicle

[biostem]

12 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

But I completely agree with those who point out how terrible it feels to have to take a power you aren't going to use to get it.

Delaying gratification is something that people really need to understand and embrace.  Character builds are already forgiving enough and there's minimal consequences for getting it "wrong".  If you aren't able or willing to invest the 1 power pick into a prerequisite, then maybe just don't take tough.  Your character will still be functional without it...

[Wavicle]

Just now, biostem said:

Delaying gratification is something that people really need to understand and embrace.  Character builds are already forgiving enough and there's minimal consequences for getting it "wrong".  If you aren't able or willing to invest the 1 power pick into a prerequisite, then maybe just don't take tough.  Your character will still be functional without it...

Counterpoint, if the available prerequisites are all so terrible that you don’t want to even take them to get to the good stuff, then they should be improved.

[Wavicle]

In fact, I'm NOT advocating to get rid of delaying gratification...not at all.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Counterpoint, if the available prerequisites are all so terrible that you don’t want to even take them to get to the good stuff, then they should be improved.

Not every power is or should be great.  Sometimes there's just filler.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

In fact, I'm NOT advocating to get rid of delaying gratification...not at all.

So you agree that there should be a prerequisite, but also with people who don't like having to take one - sounds like double-speak to me.  Deal with having to take punch or kick if you want tough & weave, or just skip them...

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

Not every power is or should be great.  Sometimes there's just filler.

 

That's bad design. Every power should be desirable.

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

That's bad design. Every power should be desirable.

No, not really.  Every power should perform a function and/or fulfill a role, which both punch and kick do quite well.

[Zect]

People have been asking for buffs to what's already a very strong and balanced power pool since the days of live, and they have never gotten what they want, because of strong and valid reasons not to further buff one of the most effective power pools and pander to the softcap meta.

 

However, there are two specific assertions in this post that need to be addressed. First is the claim that (boxing/kick) is a power you "aren't going to use". 1) They are valuable as slot mules. Numerous builds depend on 5x AA in boxing in particular, or 4x KC/5x blistering cold in either boxing or kick, to hit critical rech and def goals. 2) Their efficacy as attacks is increased by the synergy bonus from taking multiple fighting pool attacks. Take both and cross punch, and then you may find them more useful.

 

If you chose to take a power, but fail to slot it properly, understand its full potential, or take supporting powers that make it useful, that's a build design error by you. It doesn't mean the power is useless.

 

Second, defdebuff resist should not be something handed out willy-nilly, especially not in something as accessible as a power pool and certainly not one as universally strong as fighting. Defense is very strong in the current meta; it needs more counters, not fewer ones.

[Mayaedits]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

No, not really.  Every power should perform a function and/or fulfill a role, which both punch and kick do quite well.

This is the case with most power pools really. Some powers are great, some depended on the person behind the screen, some are meh, and some are 🤮. In the end, it's a game of choices and sacrifices. Part of what makes this game so great is the customization and tinkering we get to do with powers. 

 

Punch and kick are fine and work as good "Oh shit I'm almost out of END but still need to hit something" powers or for IOs. 

[biostem]

Some buffs I would like to see to boxing and kick is that kick shouldn't make you put away any drawn weapon, and boxing, where possible, should use the off-hand for single-handed weapons, (basically like how brawl is implemented).

[Wavicle]

I don't think you should have to be slotting for set bonuses for a power to be useful on it's own. There's no double speak.

Not everyone plays the same way. I start at level 1 and play all the way, and I don't start slotting sets typically until fairly high level, so taking any power that is not going to actually get used feels bad. I feel the same way about several other power pools. It just happens that Tough and Weave are really important to a lot of my builds, and yes, worth the sacrifice, while the other power pools are sadly not. I ALSO think those other pools should get buffed, but it doesn't change the fact that the current implementation of the Fighting pool, balanced though it may be, feels bad to me, and many others. It's not fun, and it doesn't have to be that way just because that's how it has always been.

[Aracknight]

If Boxing, Kick, or Cross punch added synergy to literally every other melee attack, I might shut up about it.

 

Today Boxing (Or Kick) is a one slot wonder I don't even put anything in.  It is of zero use to me except as a speed bump to Tough.  It will never make it to my tool bar.  It has no value in my Scrapper, Tanker, Stalker, or Brute builds.  None.  I don't need to "slot it right" because I have primary or secondary powers already.  

 

Each power should have purpose, meaning, and usefulness, no matter the AT.  We used to have to take Hover to get to Fly.  Both of which are useful because they can flat out let you avoid attacks by simply flying the fuck away.  Now, you don't even have to take hover or Air Superiority.  Meanwhile, we have to learn how to throw a punch or a kick before we can become Tough?  

 

My whole primary is punching and kicking.  Gimme Tough.

[biostem]

34 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Tough and Weave are really important to a lot of my builds, and yes, worth the sacrifice

Then we're done, here.

 

35 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I don't think you should have to be slotting for set bonuses for a power to be useful on it's own.

Boxing and kick are useful, even with nothing slotted in them at all.

 

35 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Not everyone plays the same way. I start at level 1 and play all the way, and I don't start slotting sets typically until fairly high level, so taking any power that is not going to actually get used feels bad.

Then USE them.  YOU are the one choosing not to do so...

 

36 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

t doesn't change the fact that the current implementation of the Fighting pool, balanced though it may be, feels bad to me

Well, then I'm thankful the game is not balanced around your feelings.  If the feeling is too much for you to bear, then simply take something else.  It is only yourself that you have to blame for feeling that tough and weave are soo vital to your builds.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Counterpoint, if the available prerequisites are all so terrible that you don’t want to even take them to get to the good stuff, then they should be improved.

 

"Terrible" is in the eye of the beholder. I've taken Fighting on characters specifically for the attacks, *especially* after the buff where they add to each other. (Specifically on masterminds  - especially melee-focused MM primaries -  and controllers.)

 

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

 

That's bad design. Every power should be desirable.

 

That assumes that every character in every AT has the same desires and requirements.  Hover and Fly, for instance, are certainly desirable... oh, wait, you have a powerset with powers that require you to be on the ground?  So are those desirable or not? Should hover and fly be forced to be changed because players who want to play with THOSE sets (using ground-contacting or ground-adjacent powers) find them desirable?

 

SO, no, "every power should be desirable" is not true, not in a game where there's *SO* much build variety just due to the powers available to us. Hell, I don't tend to find Tough, Weave or Hasten desirable. But then,

 

52 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Not everyone plays the same way

 

... and I'm not advocating for *them* to be replaced with something I find desirable instead, or have yet another power added.

[biostem]

27 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

It has no value in my Scrapper, Tanker, Stalker, or Brute builds.  None.  I don't need to "slot it right" because I have primary or secondary powers already.

Them by that logic, your secondary should be enough, without tough or weave...

[Wysper]

15 minutes ago, biostem said:

 

Boxing and kick are useful, even with nothing slotted in them at all.

HOW are pool attacks useful, especially with no slotting? I don't need to be putting a 5 or 6 piece set in it, when I can 5 or 6 slot my primary and secondary which I actually use.
Adding another power that actually offers SOMETHING would be nice. Even if its just a mule slot for a defense set piece.
Having to take a power that does less damage than your main attacks doesn't make any sense. 
 

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Wysper said:

HOW are pool attacks useful, especially with no slotting?

Select your target, get in range, activate the power, you have a base 75% chance to hit vs even-con enemies, and if you connect, you deal some damage.  That damage can eventually lead to you defeating said enemy, and reaping that sweet sweet XP.  Were you unaware of that?

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

I personally think it's right for Tough to have a prerequisite.

But I completely agree with those who point out how terrible it feels to have to take a power you aren't going to use to get it.

What would people feel about adding a third t1 to the set? (OR folding Boxing and Kick into 1, by making "it" somewhat better, similar to Arcane Bolt, perhaps, and giving Cross Punch the same buffs with just the one prereq?)

The idea I had was the following:

 

Sturdy

Auto

5% Defense Debuff Resistance (same value for all ATs)

Enhanceable, accepts Defense sets

 

Or instead, how about they turn Boxing and Kick (and every other attack in a Power Pool) into a good attack?

 

Honestly, I don't think it'd be game breaking to make those attack equal to the best tier 1 or 2 attack in the game? 

[Wavicle]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

Select your target, get in range, activate the power, you have a base 75% chance to hit vs even-con enemies, and if you connect, you deal some damage.  That damage can eventually lead to you defeating said enemy, and reaping that sweet sweet XP.  Were you unaware of that?

 rude, useless response. 

[biostem]

1 minute ago, BrandX said:

Or instead, how about they turn Boxing and Kick (and every other attack in a Power Pool) into a good attack?

The point is that power pools are supposed to be tertiary to your primary and secondary sets.  If anything, many power pools should be reined in as they are way too good in their current iteration...

[biostem]

Just now, Wavicle said:

rude, useless response. 

Yet totally appropriate in answering your wildly hyperbolic response.

[Wavicle]

Just now, biostem said:

Yet totally appropriate in answering your wildly hyperbolic response.

that wasn't me, brainiac

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

that wasn't me, brainiac

My bad.  Change "your" to "their".

[Wavicle]

No, that was a wildly uncalled for response to that comment. You’re being extremely rude. You’ve explained your response to the idea. That’s enough.