Rad/Sonic Build

[Space]

Hello, I'm playing a Rad/Sonic character rn and was wondering if there were any good guides/builds out there. I was maybe looking for a build meant for mainly soloing, and another for mainly teaming I could take and swap as I pleased. Thanks!

[Bopper]

Rad Sonic can solo and team quite nicely with just one build.Just know that Shriek is the only single target attack power you need (early on, take Scream and Shout, but when you get to endgame respec out of them). The reason for this is, Shriek has a cast time of 1 second and a base recharge of 3 seconds. Once you achieve a recharge of 200+% (AM+Hasten+slotting practically get you there), Shriek will recharge before you're finished casting. Not only that, it's Damage per cast time is better than Scream and Shout, making it the optimum attack power. At endgame your attack chain will be Shriek-Shriek-Shriek-.... After 5 attacks the target will have 100% resistance debuff, making your DPS that much more potent.

 

Personally, I can provide Support (debuffs/buffs/minor heals), control (Sleep/Hold), and damage (through debuffs and fast attacks).

 

Here are the powers I take:

Radiation Emission:

Radiant Aura (team heal, good for solo and team)

RI (area debuff toHit and Def)

AM (team buff, good for solo and team)

EF (area debuff DMG and Resistance)

LR (area debuff slow/recharge and regen)

EMP (big area hold if stuff hits the fan)

Fallout+Mutation (only good for teams, but pair the fallout with power build up, vengeance, and amplify, and your dead teammate becomes a nuke)

Choking Cloud  (optional, I personally haven't used it, but I could see the benefits)

 

Sonic:

Shriek (only single target dps you need and it is a great debuffer for solo and teams)

Howl (only multi target damage power I take, and it provides the resistance debuff)

Siren's song (cone long duration sleep, great for solo as you can neutralize a mob while use Shriek to kill the big guy solo)

Screech (with multiple applications it can stun a boss, and it provides a good resistance debuff, 20% for 12 seconds for a 1.5 second cast time)

Amplify (self boost, somewhat optional but I always take it if I take fallout)

 

Power pools

Leadership: Maneuvers, Assault, Tactics, and Vengeance. MAT is great for solo and team, Vengeance is critical for team, pointless solo.

 

Teleport friend: this is for teaming, but it pairs so nicely with fallout. Teleport a dead ally into a mob and start the fight off with a bang.

 

Hasten: obviously

 

Hover: self defense, and there's only so much ninja run can do for you

 

APP: Power Mastery

Power Build Up: this is Amplify on steroids. Pair this with vengeance for God mode.

Temp Invulnerability: nice armor for resisting Smash and Lethal, 2 very common damage types.

Force of Nature: my "oh shit" button. When I get caught off guard, pop this and hope to recover before dying.

 

So those are the powers I pick, here's what I do with them.

 

For damage (solo and team):

Shriek (main DPS attack against tough enemies)

Howl (multi target resistance debuff with decent damage)

 

For control (mostly for solo or when exemplared)

Siren's song (when slotted, minions and lieutenants sleep for over a minute)

Screech (stuns a boss with multiple applications, and if I'm in a team I sprinkle it into my Shriek attack chain for extra resistance debuff)

EMP pulse (big hold when stuff hits the fan)

Choking Cloud (optional, but extra control if you plan on jumping into scrums)

 

Debuffs (solo and team):

RI and EI are musts, but are also amazing for big guys (EB, AV, GM). You apply it once and it stays on with no need for reapplication (aren't toggles great?). Allows you to focus on your attack chain, which further debuffs their resistance.

 

LR is another must. Slows your opponents while reducing regeneration. This is required for the toughies.

 

Buff (solo and team)

Radiant Aura and AM, no need to explain. Both great.

 

Dead ally nuke (team only):

When friend dies, I teleport them into center of mob (if necessary), then I go Power Build Up, Vengeance, Aim, Fallout, Mutation.

 

 

[JRedGiant]

Dead ally nuke (team only):

When friend dies, I teleport them into center of mob (if necessary), then I go Power Build Up, Vengeance, Aim, Fallout, Mutation.

 

Yep, this is pretty much my favorite gimmick on my rad/rad defender. I mean, it was when I was playing before and took him to 50, and while on returning home I tinkered with other builds, too many team wipes and deaths have sent me running back to remake him. The thing is, for most encounters, simply tossing out your big three RI/EF/LR, running in with Choking Cloud, and blasting, with maybe one or two top off heals, will keep the group safe and moving, one or two deaths can sometimes snowball, and now the fight is no longer going your way, and that's when things get ugly. I don't optimize my character for bleeding edge efficiency in the fights that we have handled, but rather, my goal is, while being useful in the everyday fights, really to be able to make the big recovery moves that pull us back from the cliff and keep the team rolling.

[Rumors]

If you don't mind looking through an outdated guide, I wrote one on GameFAQs that was last updated for I19:  https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/536558-city-of-heroes/faqs/59807  It's a very general guide and not focused on any specific build, so it should still mostly be usable.

 

 

Most of the regular powers haven't changed.  The main one is that Dreadful Wail no longer crashes you, Presence, Medicine, and Fighting have all been altered, Sorcery has been added, there's way more Incarnate abilities, and travel powers are more accessible.  There's also a number of new sets and stuff that were added that might be worth considering but didn't exist then, like ATOs.

 

 

As for builds, Rad's pretty flexible and a good team build often works well soloing.  Not the most efficient, but you don't have to have two builds if you don't want to.  Figuring out your build though kinda depends on your goal.  Like, are you maximizing team support and debuffs?  Do you wanna do a lot of damage yourself while keeping everyone up?  Do you wanna be a pseudo-Controller at the same time?  Do you like crashing and situational powers?

 

 

Also, I'd currently take Bopper's advice for only using Shriek with a grain of salt as the recharge does not start until the projectile leaves the character, rather than as soon as the power executes, so it's impossible to have a single power gapless chain.  If memory serves right, Shriek > Scream > repeat was the highest DPS chain, although it requires perma Hasten + perma AM to maintain and flounders a bit when exemplaring due to loss of set bonuses.

[Auroxis]

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962

http://www.cohplanner.com/

 

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

Level 50 Science Defender

Primary Power Set: Radiation Emission

Secondary Power Set: Sonic Attack

Power Pool: Sorcery

Power Pool: Speed

Power Pool: Leadership

Power Pool: Fighting

Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

 

Hero Profile:

Level 1: Radiant Aura -- Prv-Absorb%(A), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(13), Prv-Heal/Rchg(13), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(15), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(15), Prv-Heal(21)

Level 1: Shriek -- SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDfnBst-Dmg/Rchg(7), SprDfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(9), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(11)

Level 2: Scream -- Apc-Dam%(A), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Apc-Acc/Rchg(3), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(5), GldJvl-Dam%(7)

Level 4: Radiation Infection -- DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(A), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb(21), DarWtcDsp-Rchg/EndRdx(27), DarWtcDsp-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(31)

Level 6: Accelerate Metabolism -- PrfShf-EndMod/Rchg(A), EffAdp-EndMod(37), EffAdp-EndMod/Rchg(37)

Level 8: Enervating Field -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(42)

Level 10: Mutation -- RechRdx-I(A)

Level 12: Lingering Radiation -- Acc-I(A)

Level 14: Mystic Flight -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)

Level 16: Spirit Ward -- Pnc-Heal(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(17), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(17), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(19), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(19)

Level 18: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)

Level 20: Maneuvers -- Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Rct-ResDam%(34), Rct-Def(34), Rct-Def/EndRdx(34), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(46), Rct-Def/Rchg(46)

Level 22: Howl -- SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(23), SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(23), VglAss-Acc/Dmg(25), VglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), VglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(27)

Level 24: Boxing -- Empty(A)

Level 26: Fallout -- Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(36), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(36), Rgn-Knock%(37)

Level 28: Tough -- RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam(29), RctArm-EndRdx(29), GldArm-3defTpProc(31), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(31)

Level 30: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)

Level 32: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(33), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(33), ShlWal-Def(33)

Level 35: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A)

Level 38: Dreadful Wail -- Arm-Dam%(A), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Arm-Acc/Rchg(39), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(40), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(40)

Level 41: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43)

Level 44: Web Cocoon -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(45), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(45), BslGaz-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(45)

Level 47: Summon Disruptor -- ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx(48), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(48)

Level 49: Rune of Protection -- RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(50), RctArm-ResDam(50), RechRdx-I(50)

Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Vigilance

Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)

Level 4: Ninja Run

Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)

Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(43), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(46)

Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)

Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(40), PrfShf-EndMod/Acc(43)

Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve

Level 0: Portal Jockey

Level 0: Task Force Commander

Level 0: The Atlas Medallion

Level 50: Agility Core Paragon

Level 50: Support Core Embodiment

Level 50: Rebirth Radial Epiphany

Level 50: Degenerative Radial Flawless Interface

Level 50: Cimeroran Core Superior Ally

Level 50: Void Radial Final Judgement

------------

 

 

 

 

[Pzn]

Rad Sonic can solo and team quite nicely with just one build.Just know that Shriek is the only single target attack power you need (early on, take Scream and Shout, but when you get to endgame respec out of them). The reason for this is, Shriek has a cast time of 1 second and a base recharge of 3 seconds. Once you achieve a recharge of 200+% (AM+Hasten+slotting practically get you there), Shriek will recharge before you're finished casting.

Powers don't start recharging until the cast time is finished.  You still need to take at least scream to have an attack chain or else you are just doing nothing for the time that shriek is recharging.

 

 

[You]

Shriek x5 will not stack -res 5 times. It will remain -20. It stacks with other power though.

[Bopper]

Rad Sonic can solo and team quite nicely with just one build.Just know that Shriek is the only single target attack power you need (early on, take Scream and Shout, but when you get to endgame respec out of them). The reason for this is, Shriek has a cast time of 1 second and a base recharge of 3 seconds. Once you achieve a recharge of 200+% (AM+Hasten+slotting practically get you there), Shriek will recharge before you're finished casting.

Powers don't start recharging until the cast time is finished.  You still need to take at least scream to have an attack chain or else you are just doing nothing for the time that shriek is recharging.

 

Correct,  Rumors already corrected me above. The best ST DPS attack chain is Shriek - Scream - Shriek - Shout. That comes with a -75.76% resistance debuff (with EF add another -30%)

 

If you want to just maximize resistance debuffs you can add Screech to the front of that chain and the resistance debuff improves to -88.2%.

 

If you can get crazy awesome recharge (312+%) you can take out Shout and just use Screech, Shriek, Scream, Shriek, wait for Screech to recharge. That will get you a -88% at 312% recharge and a max of -97.32% debuff at 374% recharge.

[Auroxis]

If you can get crazy awesome recharge (312+%) you can take out Shout and just use Screech, Shriek, Scream, Shriek, wait for Screech to recharge. That will get you a -88% at 312% recharge and a max of -97.32% debuff at 374% recharge.

Screech-Scream-Shriek-Scream is actually better since Scream gets more chance to proc stuff like Apocalypse/Gladiator's Javelin as PPM scales off of recharge and cast time.

 

You should also cast Dreadful Wail when it's up since it's one of the faster nukes and has a 20 seconds res debuff. Can also slap a PvP -res proc on Dreadful Wail and it has a decent chance to go off, while it only lasts for 10 seconds it really helps your burst -res.

[Bopper]

If you can get crazy awesome recharge (312+%) you can take out Shout and just use Screech, Shriek, Scream, Shriek, wait for Screech to recharge. That will get you a -88% at 312% recharge and a max of -97.32% debuff at 374% recharge.

Screech-Scream-Shriek-Scream is actually better since Scream gets more chance to proc stuff like Apocalypse/Gladiator's Javelin as PPM scales off of recharge and cast time.

 

You should also cast Dreadful Wail when it's up since it's one of the faster nukes and has a 20 seconds res debuff. Can also slap a PvP -res proc on Dreadful Wail and it has a decent chance to go off, while it only lasts for 10 seconds it really helps your burst -res.

 

Better in what way? Scream is worse than Shriek in both DPS and Debuff per second. Also, you would have a gap as the lowest recharge on Scream is 1.2 (with 400% recharge). This afternoon I'll check your numbers on pines, as I don't have access to it at the moment and it contains different cast times than redtomax.

[Auroxis]

If you can get crazy awesome recharge (312+%) you can take out Shout and just use Screech, Shriek, Scream, Shriek, wait for Screech to recharge. That will get you a -88% at 312% recharge and a max of -97.32% debuff at 374% recharge.

Screech-Scream-Shriek-Scream is actually better since Scream gets more chance to proc stuff like Apocalypse/Gladiator's Javelin as PPM scales off of recharge and cast time.

 

You should also cast Dreadful Wail when it's up since it's one of the faster nukes and has a 20 seconds res debuff. Can also slap a PvP -res proc on Dreadful Wail and it has a decent chance to go off, while it only lasts for 10 seconds it really helps your burst -res.

 

Better in what way? Scream is worse than Shriek in both DPS and Debuff per second. Also, you would have a gap as the lowest recharge on Scream is 1.2 (with 400% recharge). This afternoon I'll check your numbers on pines, as I don't have access to it at the moment and it contains different cast times than redtomax.

 

Better in the way of DPS due to procs, and better in way of -res at +300% recharge and slightly worse at capped (+400% recharge). The cooldown gap between Scream and Shriek gets mitigated by Screech's cooldown, unless you're close enough to that +374% recharge mark you mentioned.

 

Basically if you run Screech-Shriek-Scream-Shriek with +300% recharge you're looking at 0.776s of total downtime (before Screech), while with Screech-Scream-Shriek-Scream you're looking at 0.312 seconds of total downtime (before the second Scream). Not sure exactly where between +300% and +400% it starts favoring the Screech-Shriek-Scream-Shriek in terms of -res, but in terms of DPS the Scream-dominant chain seems always better if you slot it with Apocalypse and Gladiator's Javelin procs.

[Bopper]

Better in the way of DPS due to procs, and better in way of -res at +300% recharge and slightly worse at capped (+400% recharge). The cooldown gap between Scream and Shriek gets mitigated by Screech's cooldown, unless you're close enough to that +374% recharge mark you mentioned.

 

Basically if you run Screech-Shriek-Scream-Shriek with +300% recharge you're looking at 0.776s of total downtime (before Screech), while with Screech-Scream-Shriek-Scream you're looking at 0.312 seconds of total downtime (before the second Scream). Not sure exactly where between +300% and +400% it starts favoring the Screech-Shriek-Scream-Shriek in terms of -res, but in terms of DPS the Scream-dominant chain seems always better if you slot it with Apocalypse and Gladiator's Javelin procs.

 

When I get back to my office I'll check your numbers for 300% recharge and I will encorporate the procs. Are you putting both apocalypse and javelin into scream, or how are you slotting them?

[Auroxis]

 

When I get back to my office I'll check your numbers for 300% recharge and I will encorporate the procs. Are you putting both apocalypse and javelin into scream, or how are you slotting them?

 

Thanks for taking your time for this, 5 apocalypse and 1 javelin. Keep in mind that proc damage in Pine's is inaccurate because it takes buffs into consideration when calculating enhanced recharge for PPM, only the enhancements+alpha slot count.

[Bopper]

Thanks for taking your time for this, 5 apocalypse and 1 javelin. Keep in mind that proc damage in Pine's is inaccurate because it takes buffs into consideration when calculating enhanced recharge for PPM, only the enhancements+alpha slot count.

 

I am not sure if that is correct about the proc damage buffs. Check out this: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Invention_Origin_Enhancement_Proc_Damage_Scaling

 

According to that link, Damage Procs such as the Apocalypse and Javelin are not boosted by any damage boosts (enhancements, set bonuses, nor outside buffs/debuffs). My formulas for accounting for this are provided below.

 

For the Apocalypse, Pines shows it has a 75% chance of hitting for 107.1. So every attack has an expected damage of 80.325

For the Javelin, Pines shows it has a 58% chance of hitting for 71.75. So every attack has an expected damage of 41.615

 

 

For maximum proc DPS, we will put that in the attack that is used most for a chain. For your chain it is Scream, for mine it is Shriek. Since both chains will use the respective attacks twice I will calculate the eDMG_proc_chain damage as follows:

 

eDMG_proc_chain = 2x(80.325+41.615)=243.88

 

 

To make things simple on the calculations I'm going to assume the Damage Boost for a player's attack to be 175% (95% from enhancements, 25% from AM, 30% from vigilance [if soloing], and another 25% from set IO bonuses). Feel free to change this number for your own calculations. I will not do an infinite number of permutations, just the one example should suffice.

 

I evaluated 4 chains, each under two conditions: 300% recharge cap and 400% recharge cap. It's pretty sporty to get 400%, but if teamed with other buffers you can do it. I will admit, I was surprised by the results.

 

Formulas used:

Debuff_Chain = (Debuff1_Dur + Debuff2_Dur + …) x 20%

DMG_Chain = DMG_Pow1 + DMG_Pow2 +… DMG_PowN

Proc_Chain = DMG_Proc1 x Perc_Proc1 + DMG_Proc2 x Perc_Proc2 +… DMG_ProcN x Perc_ProcN

Time_Chain = Cast_Pow1 + Cast_Pow2 + … Cast_PowN

RDPS = (1 + Debuff_Chain / Time_Chain)      %Resistance Debuff per second

eDPS = RDPS x [ (1 + DMG_Boost) x (DMG_Chain) + Proc_Chain ] / Time_Chain      %effective DPS

 

Powers evaluated: [Name | DMG | Cast Time | Base Recharge | Debuff Duration

Shriek  |  30.36  |  1.188s  |  3s  |  5s

Scream  |  47.71  |  1.848  |  6s  |  7s

Shout  |  76.63  |  2.904  |  10s  |  10s

Screech  |  7.23  |  1.716  |  20s  |  12s

 

Chains evaluated:

1)      Shriek – Scream – Shriek – Shout              (k-m-k-t)

2)      Shriek – Screech – Shriek – Shout              (k-h-k-t)

3)      Shriek – Screech – Shriek – Scream          (k-h-k-m)

4)      Scream – Shriek – Scream – Screech        (m-k-m-h)

 

Calculation Results:

Assumptions:

Recharge as needed, if requires more than 400% gaps were added to Time_Chain

DMG_Boost = 175%

Proc_Chain = 243.88      * 2 x (0.75x107.1+0.58x71.75)

 

[  Chain  |  eDPS w/ EF | eDPS | DPS | RDPS | Gap Time  |  Recharge Needed  ]

1)      k-m-k-t  |  217.30  |  185.62  |  105.61  |  75.76%  |  0s  |  136.74%

2)      k-h-k-t  |  203.08  |  175.57  |  91.69  |  91.48%  |  0s  |  278.79%

3)      k-h-k-m  |  215.36  |  186.98  |  94.60  |  97.64%  |  0s  |  373.48%

4)      m-k-m-h  |  206.33  |  178.66  |  92.20  |  93.77%  |  0.012s  |  400%

 

New Assumptions:

Recharge is capped at 300%

*Note first two chains are unchanged as both already required less than 300% recharge

[  Chain  |  eDPS w/ EF | eDPS | DPS | RDPS | Gap Time  |  Recharge Needed]

1)      k-m-k-t  |  217.30  |  185.62  |  105.61  |  75.76%  |  0s  |  136.74%

2)      k-h-k-t  |  203.08  |  175.57  |  91.69  |  91.48%  |  0s  |  278.79%

3)      k-h-k-m  |  181.03  |  155.93  |  83.67  |  86.36%  |  0.776s  |  300%

4)      m-k-m-h  |  193.78  |  167.32  |  88.20  |  89.70%  |  0.312s  |  300%

 

With recharge maxed, the Shriek-Screech-Shriek-Scream is optimal for resistance debuffing and is nearly optimal for effective DPS (it took Enervating Field to help the traditional Shriek-Scream-Shriek-Shout chain to barely retain top dog status).

 

With recharge capped as 300%, the optimal chain for resistance debuffing is Shriek-Screech-Shriek-Shout. In fact, it provides better resistance debuffs and better DPS than the Scream-Screech-Scream-Shriek-Gap chain.

 

In the end, I was surprised by how much the procs change my original calculations. Your chain is very good, however it appears it's not quite optimal (in this test case, where I used a fixed 175% damage boost, which felt realistic tbh).

[Rumors]

Shriek x5 will not stack -res 5 times. It will remain -20. It stacks with other power though.

 

Not true.  Shriek will self-stack with enough recharge.  Buy a Power Analyzer from the P2W Vendor and check it out for yourself.  AM + Hasten alone can easily maintain a -40 and sometimes hit -60 on just Shriek stacking alone.

[Auroxis]

Thanks for taking your time for this, 5 apocalypse and 1 javelin. Keep in mind that proc damage in Pine's is inaccurate because it takes buffs into consideration when calculating enhanced recharge for PPM, only the enhancements+alpha slot count.

 

I am not sure if that is correct about the proc damage buffs. Check out this: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Invention_Origin_Enhancement_Proc_Damage_Scaling

 

According to that link, Damage Procs such as the Apocalypse and Javelin are not boosted by any damage boosts (enhancements, set bonuses, nor outside buffs/debuffs). My formulas for accounting for this are provided below.

 

For the Apocalypse, Pines shows it has a 75% chance of hitting for 107.1. So every attack has an expected damage of 80.325

For the Javelin, Pines shows it has a 58% chance of hitting for 71.75. So every attack has an expected damage of 41.615

 

 

For maximum proc DPS, we will put that in the attack that is used most for a chain. For your chain it is Scream, for mine it is Shriek. Since both chains will use the respective attacks twice I will calculate the eDMG_proc_chain damage as follows:

 

eDMG_proc_chain = 2x(80.325+41.615)=243.88

 

 

 

That's... Not how procs work. I wasn't referring to damage values.

 

Since i24, all procs operate on the PPM formula seen here: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Procs_Per_Minute and use modified recharge rates (enhancements+alpha): http://web.archive.org/web/20120906114827/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=4213945

 

So if you put Apocalypse, a 4.5 PPM proc in Shriek with a 1 second cast time and 120% enhanced recharge(IO set + Agility/Spiritual alpha), that's 4.5*(3/2.2+1)/60=0.177 or an 18% chance to proc, while on Scream it's 4.5*(6/2.2+1.67)/60=0.329 or a 33% chance to proc.

[Bopper]

Snip

 

Thanks for the updated info. I was going off of info provided by Pines. I'll re-run numbers tomorrow, however I regret to inform you that the example you provided does not match the details of that article. It only uses activation time and BASE recharge, not the final recharge. For Shriek it is 4 seconds, for Scream it is 7.67 seconds.

 

This means the probability to proc for Shriek is 30%, Scream is 57.53%, Shout is 95.03%, and Screech is 100%.

 

For Javelin, Shriek is 23.33%, Scream is 44.74%, Shout is 73.91%, and Screech is 100%.

 

Again, I'll recalculate it tomorrow. Obviously, I won't use Shriek for the proc, but rather Screech or Shout as each of their probabilities are more than twice that of Shriek's. For the 2 Scream chain, it is still optimal to proc in Scream

[Auroxis]

Snip

 

Thanks for the updated info. I was going off of info provided by Pines. I'll re-run numbers tomorrow, however I regret to inform you that the example you provided does not match the details of that article. It only uses activation time and BASE recharge, not the final recharge. For Shriek it is 4 seconds, for Scream it is 7.67 seconds.

 

I provided two links. One is to the article on paragonwiki, the other is to the update by the devs for i24 which states " Procs Per Minute will use modified recharge instead of base recharge. The reason for this is that the whole idea of Procs Per Minute goes right out the window when we keep the base recharge even though that value can be dramatically altered."

 

In addition there have been tests made to confirm this, seen here: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,3934.0.html

[Bopper]

gah, I don't know how I missed that 2nd link. Thanks. I'll incorporate that methodology tomorrow. To be honest though, I can only expect this to further decrease the impact of procs compared to the analysis I did with the old methodology. But we'll see.

[Bopper]

I provided two links. One is to the article on paragonwiki, the other is to the update by the devs for i24 which states " Procs Per Minute will use modified recharge instead of base recharge. The reason for this is that the whole idea of Procs Per Minute goes right out the window when we keep the base recharge even though that value can be dramatically altered."

 

In addition there have been tests made to confirm this, seen here: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,3934.0.html

 

I'm working on new numbers now and will edit my original post's calculations when ready. I want to ask, do we have confirmation on what buffs do/don't impact the new recharge time? You state enhancements and alpha (incarnates?) impact it, but outside buffs do not. Has that been confirmed? Also, for alpha, does only the amount of boost affected by ED impact, or the final total impact?

 

Thanks again for the knowledge

[Auroxis]

It's been confirmed, see the thread i linked in your quote.

 

And thank you for calculating all the different sonic chains! Maybe add Shriek-Scream to the list as well since it's a popular dps-focused one for people that wanna skip on Shout.

[Bopper]

It's been confirmed, see the thread i linked in your quote.

 

And thank you for calculating all the different sonic chains! Maybe add Shriek-Scream to the list as well since it's a popular dps-focused one for people that wanna skip on Shout.

 

First, a quick look at expected proc damage. The math below will show that it is better to slot the procs in Screech than either Shriek or Scream due to the much higher probability of proc. Assuming a recharge of 120% in the power (from enhancement and alpha) we get the following:

 

Recharge: 120%

 

ArmgProc = 4.5 PPM      (107.1 dmg)

JavProc = 3.5 PPM          (71.75 dmg)

 

 

Expected Proc DMG per cast:

Shriek: 3s rch, 1s cast

EPdpc = 4.5*(1+3/2.2)*(107.1)/60+3.5*(1+3/2.2)*(71.75)/60

EPdpc = 28.87871

with 2 in chain, ExpProcDMG = 2x28.87871 = 57.7574

 

 

Scream: 6s rch, 1.67s cast

EPdpc = 4.5*(1.67+6/2.2)*(107.1)/60+3.5*(1.67+6/2.2)*(71.75)/60

EPdpc = 53.72551

with 2 in chain, ExpProcDMG = 53.72551 = 107.451

 

 

Shout: 10s rch, 2.67 cast

EPdpc = 4.5*(2.67+10/2.2)*(107.1)/60+3.5*(2.67+10/2.2)*(71.75)/60

EPdpc = 88.15782

*Note, I wasn't originally looking at chains with 2 Shouts, but there is one I might want to test now that I know this

 

Screech: 20s rch, 1.5 cast

EPdpc = 4.5*(1.5+20/2.2)*(107.1)/60+3.5*(1.5+20/2.2)*(71.75)/60

EPdpc = 129.3988

 

 

As you can see, assuming 120% (with Apoc slotting and T4 core agility alpha, this could range from 104.14% to 126.155%) it is better to slot the damage procs in Screech than it is to slot it in Scream (even despite attacking twice with Scream in a chain).

 

Another thing that might be worth considering is to not slot max recharge in the power. I saw in your build you did and you had 126.155% after T4 alpha. If you removed the Rch/DMG with DMG, you can reduce this to 104.14%. Check out the impact:

 

Shriek:

126.155% rch:    EPdpc = 28.43

104.14% rch:      EPdpc = 30.17

 

Scream:

126.155% rch:    EPdpc = 52.82

104.14% rch:      EPdpc = 56.31

 

Shout:

126.155% rch:    EPdpc = 86.65

104.14% rch:      EPdpc = 92.47

 

Screech:

126.155% rch:    EPdpc = 126.38

104.14% rch:      EPdpc = 138.03

 

Check out that last one for Screech. A 104.14% rch nets more EPdpc than you would get from slotting procs in both Shriek and Scream with (52.82*2+28.43=134.07) with max recharge. So the question becomes, can you get enough recharge from outside buffs to keep your attack chain gapless (or as little gaps as possible).

 

At this point, I need a way forward. I can re-do the analysis I did yesterday with correct Proc analysis, but it would be pointless to look at slotting Shriek or Scream with procs if Screech is optimal. I am hitting the point that I'm looking at too many scenarios to get a final answer, when I'm just hoping to make a general recommendation for optimal attack chains (eDPS and DRPS).

 

So think about this info, and let me know what you would like me to look at. Overall, from numbers I already re-ran I can tell you that Shriek-Screech-Shriek-Shout still outperforms Scream-Screech-Scream-Shriek in both eDPS and DRPS with a recharge cap of 300% and Procs in Screech. With unlimited recharge, the Shriek-Screech-Shriek-Scream is still the optimal DRPS and is practically equal to Shriek-Scream-Shriek-Shout in eDPS.

[Auroxis]

Ideally you wouldn't wanna use the purple proc on Screech unless you're always using it as part of an attack chain, which often-times isn't the case since the -res takes time to ramp up to negate Screech's low damage. Using both the purple and the toxic damage procs on Screech also means you can't slot a 5-piece Stun set for the global recharge+CC, and have to use Apocalypse on it. However you can build around this.

 

The way forward would be assuming a +400% recharge baseline, and comparing as many viable attack chains in terms of raw DPS, raw -res, and combined DPS(DPS with -res):

 

Burst Damage - Shout(toxic+purple proc, +90% recharge), Scream(toxic proc, +90% recharge), Shriek(no proc)

 

Quick Damage - Scream(toxic+purple proc, +120% recharge)-Shriek(no proc)

 

Sustained Damage #1 - Screech (toxic+purple proc, +120% recharge), Shriek(no proc), Scream (toxic proc, +90% recharge), Shriek (no proc)

 

Sustained Damage #2 - Screech (toxic proc, +90% recharge), Scream(toxic+purple proc, +120% recharge), Shriek (no proc), Scream(toxic+purple proc, +120% recharge)

 

Sustained Damage #2.1 - Screech (toxic+purple proc, +90% recharge), Scream(toxic proc, +120% recharge), Shriek (no proc), Scream(toxic proc, +120% recharge)

 

Sustained Damage #3 - Screech (toxic+purple proc, +120% recharge), Shout(toxic proc, +90% recharge), Shriek(no proc)

 

I went with the +90% number because that's about where you end up with Spiritual/Agility and one Recharge/Accuracy or Damage/Recharge IO removed from a 6-piece set.

[Bopper]

Ideally you wouldn't wanna use the purple proc on Screech unless you're always using it as part of an attack chain, which often-times isn't the case since the -res takes time to ramp up to negate Screech's low damage. Using both the purple and the toxic damage procs on Screech also means you can't slot a 5-piece Stun set for the global recharge+CC, and have to use Apocalypse on it. However you can build around this.

 

The way forward would be assuming a +400% recharge baseline, and comparing as many viable attack chains in terms of raw DPS, raw -res, and combined DPS(DPS with -res):

 

Burst Damage - Shout(toxic+purple proc, +90% recharge), Scream(toxic proc, +90% recharge), Shriek(no proc)

 

Quick Damage - Scream(toxic+purple proc, +120% recharge)-Shriek(no proc)

 

Sustained Damage #1 - Screech (toxic+purple proc, +120% recharge), Shriek(no proc), Scream (toxic proc, +90% recharge), Shriek (no proc)

 

Sustained Damage #2 - Screech (toxic proc, +90% recharge), Scream(toxic+purple proc, +120% recharge), Shriek (no proc), Scream(toxic+purple proc, +120% recharge)

 

Sustained Damage #2.1 - Screech (toxic+purple proc, +90% recharge), Scream(toxic proc, +120% recharge), Shriek (no proc), Scream(toxic proc, +120% recharge)

 

Sustained Damage #3 - Screech (toxic+purple proc, +120% recharge), Shout(toxic proc, +90% recharge), Shriek(no proc)

 

I went with the +90% number because that's about where you end up with Spiritual/Agility and one Recharge/Accuracy or Damage/Recharge IO removed from a 6-piece set.

 

For this analysis, I assumed a Damage boost of 175%.  In the table I show which power in the chain had the purple and javelin proc, and I also show which power had only the javelin proc. The chain titles are shorthand, where I took the last letter of each power. So k-m-k-t is shriek-scream-shriek-shout.

 

Acronyms:

w/ EF: with Enervating Field active

eDPS: effective damage per second (combines base dps, proc dps, damage boost, and resistance debuff)

DPS: damage per second (ignores resistance debuff)

-Res: average resistance debuff of chain

Rch req: Recharge required for the chain to be gapless. This recharge requirement is based on which power in the chain required the most recharge, it is not necessarily a requirement for all powers.

Gap: If a chain requires more than 400% recharge, a gap is calculated.

Proc DPS: This is the total damage per second for the procs in the chain. It does not factor in resistance debuff.

 

*See attachment

 

Conclusions:

Pick your poison. If you want to maximize resistance debuffs while not sacrificing too much damage, putting the Armageddon proc and Javelin proc into Screech makes the most sense. The Screech-Shriek-Scream-Shriek chain gives the best resistance debuff (-97.64%) while requiring a hefty 374% recharge on Screech. If you want good value, I think the Screech-Shriek-Shout-Shriek is solid. The recharge requirement is not astronomical (100% AM, 90% enhancement, 89% from other buffs/bonuses), the effective DPS is ok, and the resistance debuff is good. Let’s put it this way, with the Procs, it out performs the standard ST Attack Chain of Shriek-Scream-Shriek-Shout in both eDPS and average resistance debuffs, which are the only two things we would care about (solo I would care more about eDPS whereas a team I would want to maximize my resistance debuffs).

[Auroxis]

Great job! It does seem like your chain is better at the cap, could you check how it compares between +300% and +400%? Like, at what point is one chain better than the other (if at all).

 

Again, thanks for the hard work you put into this!