Super Reflex QOL change

[Dnyd]

With most heroes, they start with their innate ability until they are pushed to become better. This is represented well in most of the "inherent" defensive power sets. BIO has [Inexaustible], Invulnerablility has [Resist Physical Damage], and WillPower has [High Pain Tolerance]. Super Reflexes (SR) is the exception to this rule. If a hero was to have a SR power, it would automatically be on and they wouldn't have to think about it. Only when challenged by something they never had to contend with before would they work to improve, or "focus" more on the fights they were in. So, I believe that giving the player the ability to pick an auto power at the beginning would be very useful logical. Example. you can chose between [Focused Fighting] or [Agile]  instead of [Focused Fighting] or [Focused Senses]. I pick [Agile] because you would have greater time to naturally dodge a ranged attack. 

 

Thank you for your time. 

[biostem]

I don't think the devs want to go any further with the "either/or" power pick route.  I count 4 auto powers in super reflexes, and the 3 dealing with positional defense add the scaling RES based upon lost health.  What would be a neat additional effect would be a bit of end returned for every attack dodged, (maybe no more than 1 time every few seconds or something)...

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Dnyd said:

With most heroes, they start with their innate ability until they are pushed to become better. This is represented well in most of the "inherent" defensive power sets. BIO has [Inexaustible], Invulnerablility has [Resist Physical Damage], and WillPower has [High Pain Tolerance]. Super Reflexes (SR) is the exception to this rule. If a hero was to have a SR power, it would automatically be on and they wouldn't have to think about it. Only when challenged by something they never had to contend with before would they work to improve, or "focus" more on the fights they were in. So, I believe that giving the player the ability to pick an auto power at the beginning would be very useful logical. Example. you can chose between [Focused Fighting] or [Agile]  instead of [Focused Fighting] or [Focused Senses]. I pick [Agile] because you would have greater time to naturally dodge a ranged attack. 

 

Thank you for your time. 

Your logic is also flawed. The act of evading an attack, whether normal or super, requires an active action on the part of the evasive person. Just because you have super reflexes doesn't mean you are automatically missed by attacks. You ahve to use those reflexes to get out of the way. Inherent damage resistance however, requires no active action on the part of the super.

 

Edit: Resist characters learn to push themselves to better weather damage. Evasion characters can eventually learn to more passively evade. So the power progression for SR is fine.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Rudra

[Psyonico]

Doesn't sound like the OP is looking for another either/or situation, but is instead looking to rearrange the power order in the set.

 

To which I have to vote no

[Doomguide2005]

Inherent defensive power sets?  Huh?  

 

SR, Ice, Shield okay I'll agree are defensive sets.  Invincibility is a stretch.  Willpower and Bio only if the meaning of defensive vs resistance (and regeneration) sets isn't remotely what I though it was.

 

And even if I agreed, SR is a long way from an "exception" in that respect unless I'm not understanding what you mean.

[Dnyd]

22 hours ago, Rudra said:

Your logic is also flawed. The act of evading an attack, whether normal or super, requires an active action on the part of the evasive person. Just because you have super reflexes doesn't mean you are automatically missed by attacks. You ahve to use those reflexes to get out of the way. Inherent damage resistance however, requires no active action on the part of the super.

 

Edit: Resist characters learn to push themselves to better weather damage. Evasion characters can eventually learn to more passively evade. So the power progression for SR is fine.

 

Would you not agree that catching either something falling off a table, or a child falling off a chair would be melee [auto] defense power set. Also, moving out of the way when a someone says think fast, or you don't expect something to fly at you would be a ranged [auto] defense power. Adversely, intentionally being an MMA fighter you are using a combination of [active] and [auto] powers. if you are in a bar fight then it would mostly be [active]. 

 

In the case of Toby McGuire's Spiderman, he is confronted with Brock punching him from behind, his only reaction is [auto] melee defense as he cant see the attack. Later in fights with Hobgoblin we was watching himself be punched by an evenly match opponent. This is when he would have to use [active] powers. What if this is the story I want to follow, I can't that is why I should be able to choose an [auto] power as my first one for SR.

 

 

[Dnyd]

54 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Inherent defensive power sets?  Huh?  

 

SR, Ice, Shield okay I'll agree are defensive sets.  Invincibility is a stretch.  Willpower and Bio only if the meaning of defensive vs resistance (and regeneration) sets isn't remotely what I though it was.

 

And even if I agreed, SR is a long way from an "exception" in that respect unless I'm not understanding what you mean.

 

 

To answer this, I never called those other sets defensive sets. But they can be put into this same category of internal or innate powers.  The other defensive powers similar to those you listed require something external, be it ice on your skin, fire around your body, stone on your skin, or a shield in your hand. If the power is internal, then I should be able to choose a power that I was born with. 

[Dnyd]

22 hours ago, Psyonico said:

Doesn't sound like the OP is looking for another either/or situation, but is instead looking to rearrange the power order in the set.

 

To which I have to vote no

 

 

I should have made this a pole instead. 

Choose your starting power.

1 Focused Fighting

2 Focused Senses

3 Agile

 

Think I am going to do that now. Thanks for your imput.

[Doomguide2005]

Gotcha.  Guess I don't really care.  Barely see a point to it just because those levels fly bye even if you run solo content with no boosters.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Dnyd said:

 

Would you not agree that catching either something falling off a table, or a child falling off a chair would be melee [auto] defense power set. Also, moving out of the way when a someone says think fast, or you don't expect something to fly at you would be a ranged [auto] defense power. Adversely, intentionally being an MMA fighter you are using a combination of [active] and [auto] powers. if you are in a bar fight then it would mostly be [active]. 

 

In the case of Toby McGuire's Spiderman, he is confronted with Brock punching him from behind, his only reaction is [auto] melee defense as he cant see the attack. Later in fights with Hobgoblin we was watching himself be punched by an evenly match opponent. This is when he would have to use [active] powers. What if this is the story I want to follow, I can't that is why I should be able to choose an [auto] power as my first one for SR.

 

 

No, I wouldn't. Because neither fits. Both are active actions an individual takes. An auto power would be one where you are so used to using your super reflexes that you can act without thinking. Like when you have spent enough time using your super reflexes that you can minimize your movements to avoid being hit. (Edit: A good example is the super that sees the attack coming and maybe tilts his/her head to avoid the attack.)

 

When Brock goes to punch Spiderman, he may not see the attack the way you and I do, but he is very much aware of it. That is his Spider Senses warning him of the danger. If you want to use a super reflexes character for such an example, you need to use one with less "omni awareness". Spiderman was able to pick out that a sniper was scanning the square despite not being the target because of his Spider Sense and the fact he would occasionally fall into the sniper's line of fire.

 

(Edit: And when he sees himself being punched by an evenly matched opponent? He is seeing himself facing someone able to overcome his super reflexes with either super accuracy, much better combat prowess, or other equalizing element.)

Edited December 12, 2022 by Rudra

[Dnyd]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

No, I wouldn't. Because neither fits. Both are active actions an individual takes.

 

 

This means that NO defense is an [auto] defense because a physical action must be taken? That makes no sense. If we can't say that taking action determines if is it an active verse passive ability we have to consider something else. Focused and innate reaction. 

 

Your way: You have to Focus on your reaction until you get so good that it becomes innate.  Which makes sense if you are Batman

 

My way: You have innate reactions due to your powers, but when challenged you have to focus on that innate power and the actions going on around you. Spiderman

 

Neither of these are right or wrong. However, only one is supported in the game . . . Yours. All I am asking is that there be a pick for mine as well. I didn't ask that [Dodge] and [Agile] be moved to the first 2 powers, just [Agile].

Edited December 12, 2022 by Dnyd

[Dnyd]

2 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Gotcha.  Guess I don't really care.  Barely see a point to it just because those levels fly bye even if you run solo content with no boosters.

 

It isn't how fast you go through them, but what you are forced into thematically. I like the idea of starting with actual Super Reflexes instead of I can focus real good on my reflexes. 

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, Dnyd said:

 

 

This means that NO defense is an [auto] defense because a physical action must be taken? That makes no sense. If we can't say that taking action determines if is it an active verse passive ability we have to consider something else. Focused and innate reaction. 

 

Your way: You have to Focus on your reaction until you get so good that it becomes innate.  Which makes sense if you are Batman

 

My way: You have innate reactions due to your powers, but when challenged you have to focus on that innate power and the actions going on around you. Spiderman

 

Neither of these are right or wrong. However, only one is supported in the game . . . Yours. All I am asking is that there be a pick for mine as well. I didn't ask that [Dodge] and [Agile] be moved to the first 2 powers, just [Agile].

Super reflexes as an auto effect is a minimal amount of effort/motion. It gives the least defense. The super reflexive character that simply shifts his/her head and the blast passes harmlessly over his/her shoulder. The super reflexive character that shifts his/her leg ever so slightly to the side and the kick passes along his/her leg without actually connecting. These are passive/auto power examples of a super reflexive character. As opposed to the super reflex character darting to the side, ducking down, jumping up, or taking other such active evasive action, which would be toggled defense.

 

When Spiderman dodges attacks, he is most often using gross motor skills, which would be toggles. He leaps. He ducks. He constantly moves around the battlefield. All of which tax his endurance far more than if he simply shifted ever so slightly to be missed. When he fights a normal human and can avoid having to use such active motions to avoid combat, that is when you get to the passive super reflex skills. Even against ye olde random thugs with a gun, he bounces around to avoid being hit unless he webs them before they can fire.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to remove extaneous word.

[Doomguide2005]

27 minutes ago, Dnyd said:

 

It isn't how fast you go through them, but what you are forced into thematically. I like the idea of starting with actual Super Reflexes instead of I can focus real good on my reflexes. 

Okay, but a name is just that a name.  You can call Focused Fighting and Focused Senses Spidey Melee and Arachnid Senses if you want.  That's the Role-playing.  The mechanics are separate thing from whatever your head canon wants to make of it.  I don't think any hand to hand fighter thinks about their defensive moves.  They train precisely to avoid that they just react.  If they had to think about it it's too late.

[Dnyd]

2 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Okay, but a name is just that a name.  You can call Focused Fighting and Focused Senses Spidey Melee and Arachnid Senses if you want.  That's the Role-playing.  The mechanics are separate thing from whatever your head canon wants to make of it.  I don't think any hand to hand fighter thinks about their defensive moves.  They train precisely to avoid that they just react.  If they had to think about it it's too late.

 

Ok, let's use this as the base . . . It doesn't change my request nor the reason for it. If I was an SR hero, I would rather not waste my energy trying to evade if I have an innate ability to as the name suggest. SUPER Reflexes

[Rudra]

SUPER Reflexes simply means superhuman reflexes. The ability to act/react faster than a normal person can. There is no presumption of not wasting energy in super reflexes. There is a presumption of being able to avoid being hit, at least more often than not. And that those things you can evade includes things the normal human has no hope of evading.

 

Edit: If you are not evading the hit, then either you are relying on the attacker to have abysmal aim or you are relying on something other than evasion to avoid harm. Having superhuman reflexes means you are faster at avoiding the hit, not that you have an innate ability to avoid harm while not expending energy. That would fall under some form of invulnerability or armor instead. And if you are "passively" avoiding the hit, so you are not trying to spend much energy avoiding the hit, then your super reflexes provides you with minimal defense, if any at all. Hence my examples/comment 3 posts up.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Rudra

[Doomguide2005]

48 minutes ago, Dnyd said:

 

Ok, let's use this as the base . . . It doesn't change my request nor the reason for it. If I was an SR hero, I would rather not waste my energy trying to evade if I have an innate ability to as the name suggest. SUPER Reflexes

And that's the rub.  Seems like basically you want to change things up because your idea of what Super Reflexes means isn't matched by the original designers ideas, they clash.  Not sure why you think using reflexes Super or otherwise wouldn't use energy though.  Just because I innately react 10 or 100 or a million times as quickly as a normal human why I'd use any less energy doing so.  I'm still moving out of the way.

[Dnyd]

Both of these posts assume that there is no [auto] power. Which is why your comments make no sense. The original Devs thought to add energiless powers. 3 to be exact. So, If they felt they should exist, there is no reason that it can't be a first pick. If you truely believe there shouldn't be a change. pick your first power and post it with your comment . . . or put it in the poll. because your reasons to say no to the change are just as strong and my reason to say yes. 

I put my answer on the poll. why don't you.

[Rudra]

Probably because the place to discuss this thread is this thread.

[Uun]

Auto powers are weaker than toggle powers (Iess than half as strong). Agile provides weak ranged defense. Focused Senses provides strong ranged defense. Why would I want weak ranged defense over strong ranged defense as my lvl 1 pick? Your argument about "not having to think about it" seems more like role playing than a constructive change in game mechanics. People have been arguing against this for years and the devs recent changes in Page 5 finally allow Scrappers, Brutes and Sentinels to skip RPD, HPT and Inexhaustible at lvl 1.

[Luminara]

13 hours ago, Dnyd said:

I would rather not waste my energy trying to evade

 

Then don't.  The game doesn't require you to take or run those toggles in the starter levels.  It doesn't even require you to take or run them at higher levels, that's a choice you make when you turn the difficulty up.

[MTeague]

14 hours ago, Dnyd said:

Ok, let's use this as the base . . . It doesn't change my request nor the reason for it. If I was an SR hero, I would rather not waste my energy trying to evade if I have an innate ability to as the name suggest. SUPER Reflexes

 

Just on the "wasting my energy" point. 

To be clear, the vast majority of endurance issues are not with toggles.

It's with attack powers that have not been slotted for endurance reduction.

[Player2]

I'm fine with the order of the powers as is.  I'd rather have the first 2 powers be toggle powers which gives me a significant bonus to melee and ranged defense over the weaker auto powers version of both of those.  Yeah, it's a little harder on the Endurance, but you get more defense out of it right out of the gate.

 

Other powersets that have an auto resist power as tier 1 or 2 are symbolic of those kinds of characters literally just being harder to injure whether they're relaxed or not.  Super reflexes is something that I can see thematically as needing to have your guard up to get the full benefit early on... and as you grow into it (level up), your reflexes get so good that that you maintain SOME benefit even when your guard (toggles) is down.

 

No changes needed.

(Or desired.)

[Player2]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

Then don't.  The game doesn't require you to take or run those toggles in the starter levels.  It doesn't even require you to take or run them at higher levels, that's a choice you make when you turn the difficulty up.

Indeed.

 

I run blasters, controllers, corruptors, and defenders at without any sort defense or resistance and get by just fine, and they have lower health point totals than the melee ATs.  If I can do it with those, you can do it with a scrapper or brute... and there's no question you can get by on a tank with your toggles off unless you're being overwhelmed by superior numbers or foes that are too powerful (higher level).  Consider the toggles as situational at that point...  use as needed, and turn off when you don't need them.

[Player2]

On 12/10/2022 at 8:14 PM, biostem said:

What would be a neat additional effect would be a bit of end returned for every attack dodged, (maybe no more than 1 time every few seconds or something)...

 

I see where you're going with this, but let me take a different angle.  In the old TSR Marvel Super Heroes tabletop RPG, if you successfully evaded an attack with a good enough roll (a Yellow or Red FEAT), you would have not only avoided the attack but also positioned yourself to be in a better attack posture and gain either a +1 or +2 bonus to attack that enemy.

 

Super Reflexes should give a small To Hit bonus to your attacks rather than give back some Endurance.  Make it a small but stackable (maybe 3 or 5 times) bonus for each attack avoided, with the bonus lasting for just a couple of seconds.  At any given time in the middle of a crowded fight you could have a full stack going on and show that reflexes are as much offensive as defensive.

 

To keep it balanced, the first attack that hits you negates your To Hit bonus stack, and then you start over again.

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Player2