Which Widow Wins?

Scarlet Shocker · January 2, 2023

I'm just at the point of having to respec my widow. I have no clue what to do here.

With my Soldier, I went middle path and created a Huntsman, a guy with a gun who lays down devastating fields of orange numbers.

But with a widow that seems less doable. So what I want to know from you good people is what kind of widow works for you and why! What are the pros and cons and what do you most love about it?

Glacier Peak · January 2, 2023

Fortunatas have awesome ranged and AoE powers, so I've set my first build to a team oriented Fortunata that provides double Assault and Maneuvers buffs and Mind Link.

Night Widows are really scrappy single target machines that can stand toe to toe with any enemy. If you're looking to solo a lot or prefer close to mid-range, this is a sure bet.

I think there is another route, but I've only got those two builds made up so far.

Glacier Peak · January 2, 2023

See also:

Six-Six · January 2, 2023

I love me some spiders. But between SoA and Widows, I am far less adept at the latter. So far, I have 4:

One is pure melee Widow. Basically a Stalker with less crit. Obscenely fun to play though... and quite stronk.
Pure Fort. I think of her as a Blaster with tonnes of armour or a Sentinel that packs a helluva punch. I haven't got the hang of her yet, but I've seen others that handle them with terrifying efficiency (carrying an entire team on a hard mode ITF and not breaking a sweat).

The third and fourth ones are hybrids that I've been toying around with and still tweaking. they're both plenty sturdy even with minimally slotting widow training. And with a mix of ranged and melee attacks, they're basically doms on steriods. I'm still trying to figure out the exact combination of primaries for a fluid chain, but I'm having fun in the process. My problem with widow-fort hybrids is that they have too many good powers that it's hard to pick... which is a good problem to have.

Scarlet Shocker · January 2, 2023

Thankyou chaps.

Traditionally, my playstyle has been either blasters or controllers - but since my recent return I've been having a LOT of fun tanking (I started this game in 2006) and that's a new concept for me. I like the idea of high damage and going toe to toe honestly. When I play blasters I'm an inveterate blapper, start range, close and punch in the face, then fall over.

With controllers I'm very much of the "lock 'em down and tickle 'em to death because they can't touch me" mode. (Not a fan of Ill trollers in any form)

I do like poison as a power set.

Hopefully that gives you some insight in a few paras about what I like?

Glacier Peak · January 2, 2023

47 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Thankyou chaps.

Traditionally, my playstyle has been either blasters or controllers - but since my recent return I've been having a LOT of fun tanking (I started this game in 2006) and that's a new concept for me. I like the idea of high damage and going toe to toe honestly. When I play blasters I'm an inveterate blapper, start range, close and punch in the face, then fall over.

With controllers I'm very much of the "lock 'em down and tickle 'em to death because they can't touch me" mode. (Not a fan of Ill trollers in any form)

I do like poison as a power set.

Hopefully that gives you some insight in a few paras about what I like?

Another thing I should've mentioned in my post was that Widows are great on basic IOs and a handful of uniques, but they will need to watch their endurance bar. When you can start to afford the purples and +5 enhancements at Level 50 and you've unlocked your incarnates, it is amazing how powerful they can become.

Edit: Meant to include this in my post - my Night Widow (intended to solo all content +4/8, including "Master of" runs and "Worthy Opponent"). Still building out the funds and securing the purples, but I built it based on a number of great builds and advice from other Widow aficionados. Unless otherwise noted (level capped IOs, uniques, ATOs are all catalyzed) everything is +5'd.

Screenshot of Mids Build:

Spoiler

Totals:

Spoiler

MidsReborn Build:

Spoiler

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.4.7
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Natural Arachnos Widow
Primary Power Set: Night Widow Training
Secondary Power Set: Widow Teamwork
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Sorcery
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Poison Dart

(A) Superior Spider's Bite - Damage/RechargeTime
(3) Superior Spider's Bite - Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
(3) Superior Spider's Bite - RechargeTime/Global Toxic

Level 1: Combat Training: Defensive

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(5) Kismet - Accuracy +6%

Level 2: Strike

(A) Superior Spider's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
(13) Superior Spider's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime
(15) Superior Spider's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
(15) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
(17) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance
(17) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Level 4: Tactical Training: Maneuvers

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(19) Shield Wall - Defense
(19) Shield Wall - Defense/Endurance
(21) Shield Wall - Defense/Endurance/Recharge

Level 6: Combat Jumping

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(21) Luck of the Gambler - Defense

Level 8: Follow Up

(A) Hecatomb - Damage
(23) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance
(23) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge
(25) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(25) Hecatomb - Recharge/Accuracy

Level 10: Indomitable Will

(A) Gladiator's Armor - End/Resist
(27) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)

Level 12: Lunge

(A) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
(27) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance
(29) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge
(29) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
(31) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(31) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)

Level 14: Maneuvers

(A) Shield Wall - Defense
(31) Shield Wall - Defense/Endurance
(33) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)

Level 16: Mystic Flight

(A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range
(33) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance
(33) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points)

Level 18: Slash

(A) Superior Dominion of Arachnos - Accuracy/Damage
(34) Superior Dominion of Arachnos - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(34) Superior Dominion of Arachnos - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(34) Superior Dominion of Arachnos - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(36) Superior Dominion of Arachnos - Recharge/Chance for -Dmg and Terrorize

Level 20: Mask Presence

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(36) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
(36) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance

Level 22: Tactical Training: Leadership

(A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff
(37) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance
(37) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance

Level 24: Mind Link

(A) Reactive Defenses - Defense
(37) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance
(39) Reactive Defenses - Endurance/RechargeTime
(39) Reactive Defenses - Defense/RechargeTime
(39) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance/RechargeTime
(40) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage

Level 26: Eviscerate

(A) Armageddon - Damage
(40) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance
(40) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(42) Armageddon - Recharge/Accuracy
(42) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge

Level 28: Spirit Ward

(A) Preventive Medicine - Chance for +Absorb

Level 30: Mental Training

(A) Run Speed IO

Level 32: Foresight

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(42) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
(43) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
(43) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%

Level 35: Electrifying Fences

(A) Gravitational Anchor - Immobilize
(43) Gravitational Anchor - Immobilize/Recharge/Accuracy
(45) Gravitational Anchor - Immobilize/Endurance
(45) Gravitational Anchor - Immobilize/Recharge
(45) Gravitational Anchor - Recharge/Accuracy

Level 38: Ball Lightning

(A) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage
(46) Superior Frozen Blast - Damage/Endurance
(46) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
(46) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(48) Superior Frozen Blast - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
(48) Superior Frozen Blast - Recharge/Chance for Immobilize

Level 41: Rune of Protection

(A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
(48) Unbreakable Guard - RechargeTime/Resistance
(50) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime
(50) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP

Level 44: Tactical Training: Assault

(A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 47: Assault

(A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 49: Elude

(A) Recharge Reduction IO
(50) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 1: Conditioning | Hidden

Level 1: Brawl

(A) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
(5) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(7) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
(7) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance
(9) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge
(9) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)

Level 1: Sprint

(A) Celerity - +Stealth

Level 2: Rest

(A) Empty

Level 1: Swift

(A) Run Speed IO

Level 1: Hurdle

(A) Jumping IO

Level 1: Health

(A) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance
(11) Miracle - +Recovery
(11) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery

Level 1: Stamina

(A) Performance Shifter - EndMod
(13) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End

Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment

Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany
Level 50: Born In Battle
Level 50: Demonic Aura
Level 50: High Pain Threshold
Level 50: Invader
Level 50: Marshal
------------
------------

Edited January 3, 2023 by Glacier Peak

Scarlet Shocker · January 3, 2023

ok I'm impressed. That's interesting.

So why isn't everyone playing Widows?

Glacier Peak · January 3, 2023

35 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

ok I'm impressed. That's interesting.

So why isn't everyone playing Widows?

It's the least played Archetype if I remember correctly, based on the stats Homecoming published back in 2020. Maybe folks aren't aware - there aren't really any shortcomings for Widows that can't be mitigated in some way. And using the three builds available to every character makes them the most versatile Archetype outside of the VEATs/HEATs.

Scarlet Shocker · January 3, 2023

Thankyou Glacier. My appetite is whetted. I will see wht I come up with when I bit the hig one

Six-Six · January 3, 2023

Seek out @KaizenSoze or @Voltak if you have specifics in mind. Those two are practically gods when it comes to widows and forts.

Scarlet Shocker · January 5, 2023

some great input here thankyou. I've been experimenting in Mids and I've come up with this - I think this may be slightly cheaper to build but gives me some good all round flexibility.I may adjust Incarnate stuff depending on how it plays.

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.4.6
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Natural Arachnos Widow
Primary Power Set: Night Widow Training
Secondary Power Set: Widow Teamwork
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Sorcery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Poison Dart

(A) Superior Spider's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
(3) Superior Spider's Bite - Damage/RechargeTime
(3) Superior Spider's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime
(5) Superior Spider's Bite - Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
(5) Superior Spider's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
(7) Superior Spider's Bite - RechargeTime/Global Toxic

Level 1: Combat Training: Defensive

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(7) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
(9) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Recharge
(9) Luck of the Gambler - Endurance/Recharge
(11) Luck of the Gambler - Defense

Level 2: Strike

(A) Superior Dominion of Arachnos - Accuracy/Damage
(19) Superior Dominion of Arachnos - Damage/Recharge
(19) Superior Dominion of Arachnos - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(21) Superior Dominion of Arachnos - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(21) Superior Dominion of Arachnos - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(23) Superior Dominion of Arachnos - Recharge/Chance for -Dmg and Terrorize

Level 4: Tactical Training: Maneuvers

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(25) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance

Level 6: Hasten

(A) Recharge Reduction IO
(25) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 8: Combat Jumping

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
(27) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 10: Indomitable Will

(A) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
(29) Aegis - Psionic/Status Resistance

Level 12: Follow Up

(A) Hecatomb - Damage
(29) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance
(31) Hecatomb - Recharge/Accuracy

Level 14: Lunge

(A) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
(31) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance
(31) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge
(33) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
(33) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(33) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)

Level 16: Tactical Training: Assault

(A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 18: Slash

(A) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
(23) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance
(27) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge
(34) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
(34) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(46) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)

Level 20: Mask Presence

(A) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)
(34) Shield Wall - Defense/Endurance
(36) Shield Wall - Defense/Recharge
(36) Shield Wall - Endurance/Recharge
(36) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 22: Tactical Training: Leadership

(A) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff
(37) Adjusted Targeting - Endurance/Recharge
(37) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance
(37) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
(39) Rectified Reticle - Increased Perception

Level 24: Foresight

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
(39) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 26: Eviscerate

(A) Fury of the Gladiator - Chance for Res Debuff
(39) Fury of the Gladiator - Accuracy/Damage
(40) Fury of the Gladiator - Damage/Recharge
(40) Fury of the Gladiator - Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Level 28: Mental Training

(A) Run Speed IO

Level 30: Mind Link

(A) Reactive Defenses - Defense
(40) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance
(42) Reactive Defenses - Endurance/RechargeTime
(42) Reactive Defenses - Defense/RechargeTime
(42) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance/RechargeTime
(43) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage

Level 32: Maneuvers

(A) Gift of the Ancients - Defense/Endurance
(43) Gift of the Ancients - Defense/Increased Run Speed
(50) Gift of the Ancients - Endurance/Recharge
(50) Gift of the Ancients - Defense/Endurance/Recharge

Level 35: Assault

(A) Endurance Reduction IO
(46) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 38: Mystic Flight

(A) Winter's Gift - Slow Resistance (20%)

Level 41: Spirit Ward

(A) Numina's Convalesence - Heal
(43) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery

Level 44: Rune of Protection

(A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
(45) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
(45) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
(45) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP

Level 47: Elude

(A) Kismet - Accuracy +6%
(48) Gift of the Ancients - Defense/Increased Run Speed
(48) Gift of the Ancients - Defense/Endurance
(48) Gift of the Ancients - Defense/Recharge

Level 49: Smoke Grenade

(A) Dark Watcher's Despair - Chance for Recharge Slow
(50) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff

Level 1: Brawl

(A) Empty

Level 1: Sprint

(A) Unbounded Leap - +Stealth

Level 1: Conditioning | Hidden

Level 2: Rest

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twozerofoxtrot · January 5, 2023

On 1/3/2023 at 9:46 AM, Scarlet Shocker said:

So why isn't everyone playing Widows?

Complex, sort of a high ceiling to master. Lots of choices, easy to get stuff wrong. Early levels are rough.

For seasoned players, or people with obessive personalities, this isn't an issue. It might be for others.

Also.

Widows aren't the toughest AT, that's tankers.

Widows aren't the most damaging AT, that's tankers. (joke)

They don't have a noteworthy inherent that you style your play around like Doms or Scraps.

So it's sort of a love of the AT and what it can do that brings players to Widows for life.

Mezmera · January 5, 2023

I've got one of these hybrid Fortunatas, lots of fun. Of the claws attacks I went with Lunge (fantastic ST attack), Follow up and Spin. For the Fortunata powers I took Psychic Wail, Aim, TK Blast and Total Domination proc'd out so I could bring aoe control and more aoe damage when necessary.

For the secondary powers I took just about all of them except for Assault and the ST Confuse. I also went with Mace Mastery to pick up Shatter Armor, there's an abundance of aoe powers available but beyond Lunge beefy ST attacks are hard to come by on Forts.

tidge · January 7, 2023

One recommendation that I often make for all Widows is to see how your build plays without Hasten. My experience has been that the power is basically a trap that makes you spend much more Endurance with only marginal improvements. I will concede: improving the uptime on Mind Link is better than marginal, but writing only for myself I was only very rarely teaming with others where I felt like I needed Mind Link up 100+% of the time, and that was in EXTREME content where I am not sure my PUGmates had paid that much attention to their builds or what they were doing in most fights.

I'm not saying immediately respec to remove Hasten, I'm simply suggesting playing content without it being used to see how the build does. I will add this: on my builds with Hasten, I rarely take it so early in a build as level 6, as typically there is another pool that offers me a third power I could really use by level 14. In my experience, the payoff Hasten offers is only for powers that come much later in a build (e.g. nukes, long recharge boosts/heals).

Another suggestion I have for the build posted just above by @Scarlet Shocker: When builds don't have an auto power that can take the piece, move the slot and Kismet +ToHit piece into the earliest defensive power that you intend to have toggled on. The +ToHit bonus only works in powers that are active (including auto powers), so I am pretty sure it is wasted in Elude.

Similarly, the slotting of 2 pieces of Numina's in Spirit Ward seems to be a mistake... because you will have to use the power to get the unique bonus. I know on one of my Tankers (larger base HP, so keep that in mind) I get better total regeneration rate by slotting those two pieces of Numina's in Health (along with another global), because slotting a HP/Absorb piece in Health also boosts regeneration. I would use Spirit Ward as a mule for the Preventive Medicine %Absorb piece, as it is one of the rare enhancements that doesn't have to be in an active (or available!) power to trigger. The %Absorb, along with Scaling Resistances, are some of the slot-and-forget choices that make Widows that much harder to finish off when they start taking damage.

In that same build: you find yourself with some Endurance problems and you want to keep Sprint toggled on, you may find that you don't need the Stealth piece and you can improve the Endurance budget by slotting Endurance reduction in it.

Mopery · January 7, 2023

That's easy, Witch Widow wins!

Scarlet Shocker · January 8, 2023

On 1/7/2023 at 4:05 PM, tidge said:

One recommendation that I often make for all Widows is to see how your build plays without Hasten. My experience has been that the power is basically a trap that makes you spend much more Endurance with only marginal improvements. I will concede: improving the uptime on Mind Link is better than marginal, but writing only for myself I was only very rarely teaming with others where I felt like I needed Mind Link up 100+% of the time, and that was in EXTREME content where I am not sure my PUGmates had paid that much attention to their builds or what they were doing in most fights.

I'm not saying immediately respec to remove Hasten, I'm simply suggesting playing content without it being used to see how the build does. I will add this: on my builds with Hasten, I rarely take it so early in a build as level 6, as typically there is another pool that offers me a third power I could really use by level 14. In my experience, the payoff Hasten offers is only for powers that come much later in a build (e.g. nukes, long recharge boosts/heals).

Another suggestion I have for the build posted just above by @Scarlet Shocker: When builds don't have an auto power that can take the piece, move the slot and Kismet +ToHit piece into the earliest defensive power that you intend to have toggled on. The +ToHit bonus only works in powers that are active (including auto powers), so I am pretty sure it is wasted in Elude.

Similarly, the slotting of 2 pieces of Numina's in Spirit Ward seems to be a mistake... because you will have to use the power to get the unique bonus. I know on one of my Tankers (larger base HP, so keep that in mind) I get better total regeneration rate by slotting those two pieces of Numina's in Health (along with another global), because slotting a HP/Absorb piece in Health also boosts regeneration. I would use Spirit Ward as a mule for the Preventive Medicine %Absorb piece, as it is one of the rare enhancements that doesn't have to be in an active (or available!) power to trigger. The %Absorb, along with Scaling Resistances, are some of the slot-and-forget choices that make Widows that much harder to finish off when they start taking damage.

In that same build: you find yourself with some Endurance problems and you want to keep Sprint toggled on, you may find that you don't need the Stealth piece and you can improve the Endurance budget by slotting Endurance reduction in it.

Very useful info thanks. I wasn't aware of the issue around Kismet nor Numina's. I will have to work on that.

I have a stealth in Sprint mostly for emergencies and... being extra stealthy. I am not so far experiencing too many end issues - and with Incarnate powers around the corner I shall Cardiac to be sure before experimenting wtih other Alpha options

Gulbasaur · January 16, 2023

General play: fortunata! I prefer hybrid builds because they really can do a bit of everything. They're about as sturdy as a scrapper, but have T9 powers from a blast set and a control set, plus respectable ranged and melee damage. The only thing mine really struggles with is Nemesis who seem to resist a lot of control effects.

If you're trying to solo AVs or GMs, it's arguable that a night widow is better at sustained single target damage, but you lose a hell of a lot of AoE and control to get there.

I'd also agree with Tidge's statement about Hasten - it's a trap on a lot of builds that require endurance management, but especially fortunatas where you're effectively taking it for a few seconds less Mind Link uptime and really do risk burning through all your endurance when popping an inspiration would amount to the same thing.

Doctor Fortune	Soulwright	Mother Blight	Brightwarden	Storm Lantern	King Solar	Corona Borealis
Blood Fortunado	Dark/Dark Corruptor	Rad/Rad Brute	Gravity/Time Controller	Storm/Water Defender	Peacebringer	Dark/Dark Tanker

The Good Missions Guide: A Heroic Levelling Journey through Story Arcs Blueside Guide	Easy IO Cheat Sheet
The Mean Missions Guide: A Villainous Levelling Journey through Story Arcs Redside Guide	Fortunatas are the Bestunatas

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Scarlet Shocker

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