System freezing when claiming character items, now saying to wait to open new super pack

[WindDemon21]

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF CTHULU fix this! This has been an issue for a while where you can't rapid-click the claim button on character items to claim more than one at a time, like converters for example. And there STILL is no option to simply select how many you want to claim either.

 

But even, or at least just as terrible, you used to be able to use a macro to open super packs quickly, and you could keep pressing it as many times and it would open the packs and the system would catch up. But NOW, it's doing the dumb thing the character items do where it freezes and says "please wait a moment". Before I would seriously click the macro to open the packs super fast and this would NEVER pop up before, but it is now and it's infuriating, and the cards flip over SO damn slow its going to take forever!

[srmalloy]

So you're using a tool that attempts to drive the UI to do something faster than it was designed to do, and even though it worked in the past, it's not working now, so it must be a bug in the game that you can't overdrive it the way you used to, even though you have no evidence that anything has changed. "I used to take this turn at 90mph, but when I did it just now, I skidded off the road and wrecked my car! There's something wrong with the road! I'm suing the city!"

[WindDemon21]

The same would work just right clicking and opening it was just more of a pain to do so. You can no longer do it that way either as well. So when something was working, and now doesn't, it's definitely a bug, though may be a system-issue bug and not an actual game bug, but this has been going on for a while at least with the character items. They have acknowledged it as an issue in fact, but that was last, I think almost a year ago since they acknowledged it. I don't think there is a "system issues" section, so bug section fits the best for this. Either way it's an issue that would be greatly appreciated it if was fixed.

[Astralock]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

The same would work just right clicking and opening it was just more of a pain to do so. You can no longer do it that way either as well. So when something was working, and now doesn't, it's definitely a bug, though may be a system-issue bug and not an actual game bug, but this has been going on for a while at least with the character items. They have acknowledged it as an issue in fact, but that was last, I think almost a year ago since they acknowledged it. I don't think there is a "system issues" section, so bug section fits the best for this. Either way it's an issue that would be greatly appreciated it if was fixed.

 

It's not a bug if it's an intentional decision to limit the rate of opening super packs.

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, Astralock said:

 

It's not a bug if it's an intentional decision to limit the rate of opening super packs.

Besides the fact that that would make zero sense at all to do nothing but cause frustration, that's definitely not what this is.

 

They have acknowledged the issue in relation to claiming character items and have said that this is not supposed to be happening. It's just that this has now crept to opening super packs too and it's been a long time that they've known about this with character items with nothing seemingly being done about it so far.

 

Im simply helping to let them know that this is now happening with super packs as well.

[GM Crumpet]

I'm not a dev and only know a fraction of the problems, but the reason it was disabled was that it was overloading something and causing all kinds of mayhem and drama. We made the problem ourselves unfortunately by making something widely available that previously was only available in limited quantities. The system was never designed to open hundreds of packs a minute and it only became an issue when players found a way to do just that.  As per usual something that did one thing had an unfortunate effect on something else so had to be restricted. You can still open them the old slow way, you just can't open them rapidly and in bulk. The answer to any question that starts "Can't the devs just...." is generally "They could, but they don't have hundreds of hours to totally rebuild the system from scratch"

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, GM Crumpet said:

I'm not a dev and only know a fraction of the problems, but the reason it was disabled was that it was overloading something and causing all kinds of mayhem and drama. We made the problem ourselves unfortunately by making something widely available that previously was only available in limited quantities. The system was never designed to open hundreds of packs a minute and it only became an issue when players found a way to do just that.  As per usual something that did one thing had an unfortunate effect on something else so had to be restricted. You can still open them the old slow way, you just can't open them rapidly and in bulk. The answer to any question that starts "Can't the devs just...." is generally "They could, but they don't have hundreds of hours to totally rebuild the system from scratch"

OK thank you for that! I can understand how that impacts the system for the pack openings, but what about claiming character items? Especially things like claiming converters and such, could there be an option to pop up a window where you put the number in there that you want to claim?

[GM Crumpet]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

OK thank you for that! I can understand how that impacts the system for the pack openings, but what about claiming character items? Especially things like claiming converters and such, could there be an option to pop up a window where you put the number in there that you want to claim?

I believe it's the same system so claiming too many at a time clogs the system till the server reset. I truly don't know the mechanics of it, I just had to deal with the fallout

[lemming]

it might be similar to when you click "get All inf" from the auction house from sold items.  It's fine with X number, but if you dumped a ton of salvage, you get swamped with a busy message spammed at you.  It's something in the original design that wasn't scalable.

[Tenebrose]

I was vocal a year ago when the entire system would choke out for hours on this issue. It's worlds better now, but certainly not left in a good user experience. This is what I gathered from the rather vague discussion at the time:

 

Character Items, the Auction House, and the opening of Super Packs are all linked in the same SQL queuing system. Other essential game functions (which, I don't know) also use the same queuing system. Apparently, spamming claiming of character items along with other issues would aggravate blocking in SQL. This in turn caused havoc elsewhere in the game, to the point of bringing the larger-population servers to their knees.

 

Dev work was done to help alleviate the blocking in SQL, but it didn't resolve it to a satisfactory level. In the end, a timer was added to throttle how often Super Packs can be opened and Character Items can be claimed. This seemed to resolve the more critical issue of the servers choking out.

 

How I've been handing this:

1. You can't open a second super pack before the 4th card in the first is halfway flipped. Don't bother trying until that time.

 

2. Character items can't be collected more than one per second. If you try too soon, you are essentially "punished" by the button turning gray for around 3 seconds. Yes, if you are trying to collect 60 converters, you'll be clicking the button 60 times, once a second, on the second, for a full minute. If you are in battle and want to quickly collect a few inspirations, carefully time your clicks or you'll be S.O.L. I don't know the stance of Homecoming on input macros, but it's ridiculous if using one to claim dozens or hundreds of items is frowned upon with this restriction in place. It's unreasonable to ask users to click a button exactly one second apart for minutes just to collect some salvage from your own email.

 

3. Even if you wait the full amount of time, sometimes the queue will still get backed up. Usually it resolves within a minute or two, compared to a year ago when it took literally hours or server reboot. One thing I've noticed is that placing things onto the AH often causes the rest of the features to get locked up. If you are both claiming items and plan to sell, make sure to claim as much as you can, then put stuff up for sale. (Edit: If things get locked up, you'll usually know when they clear because the first action to get locked will resolve. So if it locked collecting a Character Item, you'll hear the "ding" of one being collected when it clears. Or the Super Pack will open. This will happen even if you log out of one character and into another, since it's bound to the account. There no reason to spam the button when it's already locked up; they won't resolve.)

 

I raised these as QOL issues a year ago, especially the claim button's "gotcha" programming. There's no reason the "claim" button on Character Items should be available within a second if it is only going to punish the user. Disable it for at least that built-in second. It's obviously possible, considering it's already happening if you click it too soon. I've also suggested adding a means to "Collect 10" or "Collect #". From what I heard, I feel that may not be possible since it likely would still need to fire off X number of requests to claim the items. That would be no different than spamming the button.

 

With over 2 decades of SQL experience on business databases that would dwarf anything in CoH (Homecoming, and likely live), I understand the frustration SQL can sometimes bring. I also know all too well how it is to work on a feature that likely was thrown together with a short deadline and little resources. Still, I'd love to see the code and help resolve these issues.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Tenebrose

[Tenebrose]

Also, you can create a hotbar button to open the packs. Again, it won't open faster than using the RightClick->Open menu on the packs themselves, but it's a heck of a lot easier.

 

/macro hero salvage_open S_HVSuperPackSalvage
/macro rogue salvage_open S_RVSuperPackSalvage

Edited January 10, 2023 by Tenebrose

[WindDemon21]

11 hours ago, Tenebrose said:

I was vocal a year ago when the entire system would choke out for hours on this issue. It's worlds better now, but certainly not left in a good user experience. This is what I gathered from the rather vague discussion at the time:

 

Character Items, the Auction House, and the opening of Super Packs are all linked in the same SQL queuing system. Other essential game functions (which, I don't know) also use the same queuing system. Apparently, spamming claiming of character items along with other issues would aggravate blocking in SQL. This in turn caused havoc elsewhere in the game, to the point of bringing the larger-population servers to their knees.

 

Dev work was done to help alleviate the blocking in SQL, but it didn't resolve it to a satisfactory level. In the end, a timer was added to throttle how often Super Packs can be opened and Character Items can be claimed. This seemed to resolve the more critical issue of the servers choking out.

 

How I've been handing this:

1. You can't open a second super pack before the 4th card in the first is halfway flipped. Don't bother trying until that time.

 

2. Character items can't be collected more than one per second. If you try too soon, you are essentially "punished" by the button turning gray for around 3 seconds. Yes, if you are trying to collect 60 converters, you'll be clicking the button 60 times, once a second, on the second, for a full minute. If you are in battle and want to quickly collect a few inspirations, carefully time your clicks or you'll be S.O.L. I don't know the stance of Homecoming on input macros, but it's ridiculous if using one to claim dozens or hundreds of items is frowned upon with this restriction in place. It's unreasonable to ask users to click a button exactly one second apart for minutes just to collect some salvage from your own email.

 

3. Even if you wait the full amount of time, sometimes the queue will still get backed up. Usually it resolves within a minute or two, compared to a year ago when it took literally hours or server reboot. One thing I've noticed is that placing things onto the AH often causes the rest of the features to get locked up. If you are both claiming items and plan to sell, make sure to claim as much as you can, then put stuff up for sale. (Edit: If things get locked up, you'll usually know when they clear because the first action to get locked will resolve. So if it locked collecting a Character Item, you'll hear the "ding" of one being collected when it clears. Or the Super Pack will open. This will happen even if you log out of one character and into another, since it's bound to the account. There no reason to spam the button when it's already locked up; they won't resolve.)

 

I raised these as QOL issues a year ago, especially the claim button's "gotcha" programming. There's no reason the "claim" button on Character Items should be available within a second if it is only going to punish the user. Disable it for at least that built-in second. It's obviously possible, considering it's already happening if you click it too soon. I've also suggested adding a means to "Collect 10" or "Collect #". From what I heard, I feel that may not be possible since it likely would still need to fire off X number of requests to claim the items. That would be no different than spamming the button.

 

With over 2 decades of SQL experience on business databases that would dwarf anything in CoH (Homecoming, and likely live), I understand the frustration SQL can sometimes bring. I also know all too well how it is to work on a feature that likely was thrown together with a short deadline and little resources. Still, I'd love to see the code and help resolve these issues.

It just baffles me too cause om this same system this didn't happen before but it does now? Even with the character item claiming.

 

Another bottom line is just the pain (and carpal tunnel) of the same repetitive clicking and mouse holding on character items.

 

Could there not be a way to still allow us to choose how many we want to open/claim, and then just let the system take as long as it needs to do so do we don't have to keep clicking?

 

Thats really the main issue here is all the clicking and timing those clicks.

[WindDemon21]

8 hours ago, Tenebrose said:

Also, you can create a hotbar button to open the packs. Again, it won't open faster than using the RightClick->Open menu on the packs themselves, but it's a heck of a lot easier.

 

/macro hero salvage_open S_HVSuperPackSalvage
/macro rogue salvage_open S_RVSuperPackSalvage

Yeah that's what I was talking about when I said I could open a bunch oer second.

[EmperorSteele]

Just now, WindDemon21 said:

It just baffles me too cause om this same system this didn't happen before but it does now? Even with the character item claiming.

 

 

 

Well, think of it this way.

 

When HC was first spun up, how many character items were in everyone's e-mails?

 

And now, 3+ years of everyone opening millions of super packs later, how large is that number now?

 

The list is probably a 500 gigabyte file by now!

[WindDemon21]

10 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

 

Well, think of it this way.

 

When HC was first spun up, how many character items were in everyone's e-mails?

 

And now, 3+ years of everyone opening millions of super packs later, how large is that number now?

 

The list is probably a 500 gigabyte file by now!

I thought that but figured it wasn't a "max file size" issue and was a memory/ram "X many per hour" issue.

[Tenebrose]

3 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

 

Well, think of it this way.

 

When HC was first spun up, how many character items were in everyone's e-mails?

 

And now, 3+ years of everyone opening millions of super packs later, how large is that number now?

 

The list is probably a 500 gigabyte file by now!

 

There's no doubt that this system wasn't designed for the traffic it is now getting. And I'm assuming that the current hardware may not be as powerful as that on live. To further complicate matters, SQL has changed quite a bit over the years. If Homecoming upgraded to a newer version (I hope they did), that could cause issues if the original scripts are not as compatible.

 

Regarding "batching" the claiming of items, I get that is a very low priority ask. To my knowledge, there's nothing currently in the system like that, so it will be net new code. And if "let a handful of people claim a lot of items quickly" is up against "create new powersets, missions, incarnate abilities, etc., etc.), we know what's getting cut. However, from the outside at least, doing something like disabling the "claim" button for a second instead of punishing the user with a 3+ second cooldown for clicking it too soon seems like a reasonable ask.

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I thought that but figured it wasn't a "max file size" issue and was a memory/ram "X many per hour" issue.

 

From what I can tell, when you place a bid, get profits from sales, or open card packs they all go into a queue which can be overloaded.

 

You don't see the impact of it from placing bids, but I can see the aftermath off it sometimes from watching how the buying through various bid pools are filling/purchased. 

Spoiler

Fnord

 

From my experience, trying to get back the profits on sales won't lock-up with messages until you try to get the returns on more than 27 items. So either just deal with it if you are getting more than say 50 back and if less than 50 just individually click to get the return on individual items until you are down to 27.

 

I have seen the delay on opening card packs, but I only seem to see this happen when I try to open them too quickly. If I open card packs and wait for all the cards to flip, then the system doesn't lock up most of the time. I generally had been always waiting for all the cards to flip because I was paranoid about not getting all the card pack rewards if I didn't see the card flip first. A friend told me you got the reward regardless, so I try to open faster...and lock-up.

So I suggest, watching the cards flip until the last one has flipped before opening the next pack and see if that stops the problem.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by UltraAlt

[Tenebrose]

9 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I have seen the delay on opening card packs, but I only seem to see this happen when I try to open them too quickly. If I open card packs and wait for all the cards to flip, then the system doesn't lock up most of the time.

 

There is a built in delay on opening the packs. If you try to open the packs before the 4th card flips halfway, you'll get the "please wait" message. I'm sure it's a timed delay that I never timed, but the cards flipping are consistent and that comes out to the 4th card flips halfway. So it's probably like 3 second or somesuch.

 

Quote

I generally had been always waiting for all the cards to flip because I was paranoid about not getting all the card pack rewards if I didn't see the card flip first. A friend told me you got the reward regardless, so I try to open faster...and lock-up.

 

You get all the rewards as soon as you open the pack, even if the cards don't flip. You can confirm this by looking at your email when the "cards flipping" gump opens, especially something that comes up often, like converters or unslotters. You'll see that the items appear immediately in your email before the cards even start flipping.

 

Even the messages you receive in chat are only delayed to not spoil what you are getting: They normally appear as each card flips. But if you close the gump before the cards start flipping, all five messages will immediately appear.

 

The "cards flipping" gump is just for looks, and the delay is programmed. If you close the gump, you'll still have to wait the hardcoded time to open a second pack.

 

Besides the hardcoded delay, there's always a chance the queue gets boggled down. If that happens, everything tied to that queue can still take a while.

 

I seem to recall a dev mentioning that the rewards from raids and incarnate stuff were tied to the same queue. Honestly, I don't remember exactly, but it was something that didn't sound like it should have been in the same queue in the first place. Point being, this was a bigger issue than just the packs, AH, and email. The original design certainly wasn't QAed for the level of use we put on the packs and email system. The throttles put on the packs and email are annoying, but likely necessary without major updates.

 

If only they could find a SQL engineer with decades of experience in working with large databases, massive throughput, and (as a bonus) been with the CoH game since Day 1 of live. Where could they ever find such a person? (a-hem)

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, Tenebrose said:

There is a built in delay on opening the packs. If you try to open the packs before the 4th card flips halfway, you'll get the "please wait" message. I'm sure it's a timed delay that I never timed, but the cards flipping are consistent and that comes out to the 4th card flips halfway. So it's probably like 3 second or somesuch.

 

Is it a built in delay? or is it a queue issue? is the delay based on the queue?

At any rate, if you wait for them all the cards to flip, you won't get that message.

 

1 hour ago, Tenebrose said:

You get all the rewards as soon as you open the pack, even if the cards don't flip. You can confirm this by looking at your email when the "cards flipping" gump opens, especially something that comes up often, like converters or unslotters. You'll see that the items appear immediately in your email before the cards even start flipping.

 

Yep. I understand. 

I was referencing in order to show the reasoning that I had tested opening faster and had the lock-up message -and- then returned to opening them and letting all the cards flipped first and no longer getting the lock-up. 

 

1 hour ago, Tenebrose said:

The "cards flipping" gump is just for looks, and the delay is programmed. If you close the gump, you'll still have to wait the hardcoded time to open a second pack.

 

 

Or you can watch the cards flip and use that as the timer to avoid the lock-up.

 

 

 

[Tenebrose]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

Is it a built in delay? or is it a queue issue? is the delay based on the queue?

At any rate, if you wait for them all the cards to flip, you won't get that message.

 

After opening an untold number of packs over the last year, I'm 99% certain it's a built-in delay. It is consistently at the point when the 4th card is halfway flipped. If you try just before that, you'll get the message. Occasionally, the queuing issue does extend that time more, but since last year, I've never been able to open a pack before the 4th card is approximately halfway through it's flip. There's no logical reason that opening a pack would consistently cause a 3 second (approximate) delay due to the queue, while nothing else appears to have that long of a delay. If it was the queue itself, we should see less of a delay when few people are on and more of a delay when more people are on. But that's not happening. Most likely, the five items are all added to the queue as separate records as soon as the pack is opened and the contents generated. In the meantime, the gump handles displaying what was just sent to the queue and controls the chat entries. That would explain why the items immediately appear in email, and why the engineer was concerned enough to add a longer delay to opening the packs.

[WindDemon21]

23 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

It just baffles me too cause om this same system this didn't happen before but it does now? Even with the character item claiming.

 

Another bottom line is just the pain (and carpal tunnel) of the same repetitive clicking and mouse holding on character items.

 

Could there not be a way to still allow us to choose how many we want to open/claim, and then just let the system take as long as it needs to do so do we don't have to keep clicking?

 

Thats really the main issue here is all the clicking and timing those clicks.

I'll say it again though. The real issue is having to click so many times and now timing it etc.

 

If we could just choose how many to open of this and character items, then let the system take as long as it needs, waiting the hour for them to be claimed isn't the issue, it's the clicking for an hour straight timing the clicks every 3 seconds and getting carpal tunnel that's the issue.

 

If we could also get an option to not show the card flips too that would be nice especially if this option became available so you could actually play while they open.

[Troo]

13 hours ago, Tenebrose said:

If only they could find a SQL engineer with decades of experience in working with large databases, massive throughput, and (as a bonus) been with the CoH game since Day 1 of live. Where could they ever find such a person? (a-hem)

 

but then top secrets would need to be shared and drama..

[Tenebrose]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

but then top secrets would need to be shared and drama..

I'd have to first perform the blood ritual to sell my soul to the entity that runs the server. I mean, I'm cool with that. My soul's only worth about $1.33 now anyways. I can do without drama, tho.

[TheZag]

21 hours ago, Tenebrose said:

If only they could find a SQL engineer with decades of experience in working with large databases, massive throughput, and (as a bonus) been with the CoH game since Day 1 of live. Where could they ever find such a person? (a-hem)

 

Such a person should post in the future volunteer recruitment thread.  I dont think the team scours the entire forum looking for potential new team members.

 

 

[Tenebrose]

12 hours ago, TheZag said:

 

Such a person should post in the future volunteer recruitment thread.  I dont think the team scours the entire forum looking for potential new team members.

 

 

 

I didn't know that was still an active "thing". It looks more like a zombie thread. I expressed my interest in helping out on this specific issue directly to the engineer working on it last year. Felt a little more useful than adding my name to a thread that's been posted to literally once a year for the last 2 years, especially since I was only offering to help for this one issue at the time and not applying for a "development" role.