Purple Knockback Set w/Universal KB>KD 6 pc set bonus

[Wavicle]

Focused Force (Purple Knockback Set)

 

Acc/Dmg
Acc/Dmg/Knock
Dmg/Knock
Dmg/End/Knock
End/Rcg/Knock
Chance for Energy Damage

 

2) 10% Movement Speed
3) 15% Range
4) 15% Accuracy
5) 6% Damage
6) Universal KB>KD

 

 

 

Admittedly, I don't really know how to design a purple set, but it's the concept that counts here. The details could be altered, as far as the exact pieces in the set and the first four bonuses. The real keys are that the set has enough dmg, acc, rcg, and end to be used in a typical attack, and that the 6 slot bonus is Knockback reduced to Knockdown in ALL the players abilities (and preferably their pets abilities as well). Heck, the name could change as well, but this seemed reasonably applicable.

[Wavicle]

Actually, I might redesign it as a Universal Damage set, so it's not locked to 50.

[Gobbledygook]

Don't most sets have a 10% rech bonus in them somewhere?

Just asking, but yeah, /signed.

[Zect]

This set allows knockback-heavy powersets to gain far too much slot-efficiency.

 

We'll use energy blast as an example.

 

A typical nrg build is 3 ST blasts, 2 aoe's and a nuke, for 6 powers. That's 6 KB2KD procs, at a cost of 6 slots. Slotting 6x Ignorant Suggestion in one of the ST blasts is only 5 added slots, so that's 1 free slot right off the bat. It also comes with a purple (!) damage proc (1 slot), 15% accuracy and 6% damage as set bonuses, and enhancement value for the power itself. You have turned 6 slots with formerly gave no enhancement value nor set bonuses into 6 slots that now give purple scalar enhancement value and purple set bonuses and purple damage procs. That's 6 more slots, at the least.

 

Not having to slot a KB2KD in the remaining powers has implications far beyond merely increasing slot-efficiency.

 

Take this example procbombing nrg ST blast slot loadout for power burst:

1. Force feedback proc
2. explosive strikes proc
3. gladiator's javelin proc
4. apoc proc
5. +5 apoc: dmg
6. KB2KD proc

Currently, due to the KB2KD proc, it is very hard to max out damage enhancement in the power. A +5 purple single is only 66%. Even musculature core would put it at 15% below the new ED cap. Musc core + overwhelming force would cap it, but both OF and apoc are unique, so this can't be repeated across the set. This introduces tradeoffs and choices that must be made in order to maximize the dps output of each of the energy blast powers. We need to choose between procs and enhancements, and this caps the power of such procbombing builds.

 

With the need for a KB2KD proc removed, the set can now be slotted as follows:

1. Force feedback proc
2. explosive strikes proc
3. gladiator's javelin proc
4. apoc proc
5. +5 apoc: dmg
6. 53 Nucleolus

This gives ED-capped (95%) damage enhancement. In other words, your suggestion is a gain of +29%, minimum, damage enhancement across every power of this build. That's a free alpha slot, before we even get into the advantage of using boosted frankenslotting to patch up other common weaknesses of such builds (such as low endredux enhancement and corresponding high eps cost) which use of KB2KD procs would enforce.

 

I need to emphasize that this situation is by no means not unique to energy blast. For example, stormies have to choose between KB2KD and 6x expedient reinforcement in their slotting of tornado. Either they mitigate the knockback, or they sacrifice the set bonuses. They also cannot slot 6x thunderstrike or 6x ATIO in lightning storm if they want a KB2KD there. These all lead to interesting build design choices and tradeoffs. Tradeoffs are good because they lead to build diversity.

 

Ultimately, though, all these terrible knockback suggestions fail to fix the real issue, if you could call it that, with knockback. There aren't really enough situations where KB is more valuable than herding up enemies into a tight clump and burning them down. We don't need more options to remove KB from the game. We need to give rise to different and equally viable strategies that can compete with the oppressive, boring, unfun, mass-aoe meta.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Zect

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, Zect said:

 

 

Ultimately, though, all these terrible knockback suggestions fail to fix the real issue, if you could call it that, with knockback. There aren't really enough situations where KB is more valuable than herding up enemies into a tight clump and burning them down. We don't need more options to remove KB from the game. We need to give rise to different and equally viable strategies that can compete with the oppressive, boring, unfun, mass-aoe meta.

 

 

Well I disagree with most of your other points (though as I said the exact slotting could change), but this one I REALLY disagree with and here’s why:

 

 Creating more kb2kd options is easy and doable. Completely rewriting the game (which is essentially what you’re asking for here) is not.

[0th Power]

Random thoughts:

 

I don't think too many people slot kb>kd on their ST attacks.

 

Kb could stand to be made more valuable 

 

I like the idea of a 6 slot bonus for universal KB>kd and I do think it should be a purple because it will exempt down to level 1 and I think they shouldn't be super easy to obtain.  

 

I think one of the other proposed bonuses should be changed to mag 3 or 4 kb protection and the proc should either be smashing or a disorient. 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by 0th Power

[Wavicle]

Just now, 0th Power said:

Random thoughts:

 

I don't think too many people slot kb>kd on their ST attacks.

 

Kb could stand to be made more valuable 

 

I like the idea of a 6 slot bonus for universal KB>kd and I do think it should be a purple because it will exempt down to level 1 and I think they shouldn't be super easy to obtain.  

 

I think one of the other proposed bonuses should be changed to mag 3 or 4 kb protection and the proc should either be smashing or a disorient. 

 

 

I considered both kb protection and smashing damage but changed them because those already exist on non purple kb sets, but it makes total sense for them to be there, I agree.

[Zeraphia]

3 hours ago, Zect said:

This set allows knockback-heavy powersets to gain far too much slot-efficiency.

 

We'll use energy blast as an example.

 

A typical nrg build is 3 ST blasts, 2 aoe's and a nuke, for 6 powers. That's 6 KB2KD procs, at a cost of 6 slots. Slotting 6x Ignorant Suggestion in one of the ST blasts is only 5 added slots, so that's 1 free slot right off the bat. It also comes with a purple (!) damage proc (1 slot), 15% accuracy and 6% damage as set bonuses, and enhancement value for the power itself. You have turned 6 slots with formerly gave no enhancement value nor set bonuses into 6 slots that now give purple scalar enhancement value and purple set bonuses and purple damage procs. That's 6 more slots, at the least.

 

Not having to slot a KB2KD in the remaining powers has implications far beyond merely increasing slot-efficiency.

 

Take this example procbombing nrg ST blast slot loadout for power burst:

1. Force feedback proc
2. explosive strikes proc
3. gladiator's javelin proc
4. apoc proc
5. +5 apoc: dmg
6. KB2KD proc

Currently, due to the KB2KD proc, it is very hard to max out damage enhancement in the power. A +5 purple single is only 66%. Even musculature core would put it at 15% below the new ED cap. Musc core + overwhelming force would cap it, but both OF and apoc are unique, so this can't be repeated across the set. This introduces tradeoffs and choices that must be made in order to maximize the dps output of each of the energy blast powers. We need to choose between procs and enhancements, and this caps the power of such procbombing builds.

 

With the need for a KB2KD proc removed, the set can now be slotted as follows:

1. Force feedback proc
2. explosive strikes proc
3. gladiator's javelin proc
4. apoc proc
5. +5 apoc: dmg
6. 53 Nucleolus

This gives ED-capped (95%) damage enhancement. In other words, your suggestion is a gain of +29%, minimum, damage enhancement across every power of this build. That's a free alpha slot, before we even get into the advantage of using boosted frankenslotting to patch up other common weaknesses of such builds (such as low endredux enhancement and corresponding high eps cost) which use of KB2KD procs would enforce.

 

I need to emphasize that this situation is by no means not unique to energy blast. For example, stormies have to choose between KB2KD and 6x expedient reinforcement in their slotting of tornado. Either they mitigate the knockback, or they sacrifice the set bonuses. They also cannot slot 6x thunderstrike or 6x ATIO in lightning storm if they want a KB2KD there. These all lead to interesting build design choices and tradeoffs. Tradeoffs are good because they lead to build diversity.

 

Ultimately, though, all these terrible knockback suggestions fail to fix the real issue, if you could call it that, with knockback. There aren't really enough situations where KB is more valuable than herding up enemies into a tight clump and burning them down. We don't need more options to remove KB from the game. We need to give rise to different and equally viable strategies that can compete with the oppressive, boring, unfun, mass-aoe meta.

This is honestly so badly cherry-picked and warped that it's kind of funny. 

 

Slotting a power like this isn't feasible. Especially multiple powers like this. Recharge time on blast times has a relationship with procs where the more proc'd out a power of those sets are, the less value you'll get out of it. That's why on a typical blast power, you'll only see 2 procs. You want to diversity (have 2 procs on longer recharge blast powers) with a mix of a 5 set-bonus that also grants something valuable like +10% recharge, which this setup is not giving you. 

 

Also, you included a purple one-time unique IO proc IO in this, along with another purple one-time IO with the Apoc +dmg. Yes, very rare enhancement sets that are for the end game and can only be used once in your character build should do impressive things. Why are we using that as an example for "every power of this build." 

 

A more realistic example is more like:
Apoc 5-piece + Sudden Acceleration ->
Apoc 5-piece + Explosive Strikes.

 

Which is currently the meta and how most people are slotting Seismic Blast blasters (Apoc 5 piece + Explosive Strikes.) This whole fear-mongering about how "op" EB would be if it was KD instead is just laughable. You already have Seismic Blast available, which has almost entirely identical numerical properties to EB in the animation times, damage numbers, and DPAs. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Zeraphia

[JasperStone]

3 hours ago, Zect said:

This set allows knockback-heavy powersets to gain far too much slot-efficiency.

 

We'll use energy blast as an example.

 

A typical nrg build is 3 ST blasts, 2 aoe's and a nuke, for 6 powers. That's 6 KB2KD procs, at a cost of 6 slots. Slotting 6x Ignorant Suggestion in one of the ST blasts is only 5 added slots, so that's 1 free slot right off the bat. It also comes with a purple (!) damage proc (1 slot), 15% accuracy and 6% damage as set bonuses, and enhancement value for the power itself. You have turned 6 slots with formerly gave no enhancement value nor set bonuses into 6 slots that now give purple scalar enhancement value and purple set bonuses and purple damage procs. That's 6 more slots, at the least.

 

Not having to slot a KB2KD in the remaining powers has implications far beyond merely increasing slot-efficiency.

 

Take this example procbombing nrg ST blast slot loadout for power burst:

1. Force feedback proc
2. explosive strikes proc
3. gladiator's javelin proc
4. apoc proc
5. +5 apoc: dmg
6. KB2KD proc

Currently, due to the KB2KD proc, it is very hard to max out damage enhancement in the power. A +5 purple single is only 66%. Even musculature core would put it at 15% below the new ED cap. Musc core + overwhelming force would cap it, but both OF and apoc are unique, so this can't be repeated across the set. This introduces tradeoffs and choices that must be made in order to maximize the dps output of each of the energy blast powers. We need to choose between procs and enhancements, and this caps the power of such procbombing builds.

 

With the need for a KB2KD proc removed, the set can now be slotted as follows:

1. Force feedback proc
2. explosive strikes proc
3. gladiator's javelin proc
4. apoc proc
5. +5 apoc: dmg
6. 53 Nucleolus

This gives ED-capped (95%) damage enhancement. In other words, your suggestion is a gain of +29%, minimum, damage enhancement across every power of this build. That's a free alpha slot, before we even get into the advantage of using boosted frankenslotting to patch up other common weaknesses of such builds (such as low endredux enhancement and corresponding high eps cost) which use of KB2KD procs would enforce.

 

I need to emphasize that this situation is by no means not unique to energy blast. For example, stormies have to choose between KB2KD and 6x expedient reinforcement in their slotting of tornado. Either they mitigate the knockback, or they sacrifice the set bonuses. They also cannot slot 6x thunderstrike or 6x ATIO in lightning storm if they want a KB2KD there. These all lead to interesting build design choices and tradeoffs. Tradeoffs are good because they lead to build diversity.

 

Ultimately, though, all these terrible knockback suggestions fail to fix the real issue, if you could call it that, with knockback. There aren't really enough situations where KB is more valuable than herding up enemies into a tight clump and burning them down. We don't need more options to remove KB from the game. We need to give rise to different and equally viable strategies that can compete with the oppressive, boring, unfun, mass-aoe meta.

 

 

I never slot this way.

 

[FupDup]

3 hours ago, Zect said:

This set allows knockback-heavy powersets to gain far too much slot-efficiency.

 

We'll use energy blast as an example.

 

A typical nrg build is 3 ST blasts, 2 aoe's and a nuke, for 6 powers. That's 6 KB2KD procs, at a cost of 6 slots. Slotting 6x Ignorant Suggestion in one of the ST blasts is only 5 added slots, so that's 1 free slot right off the bat. It also comes with a purple (!) damage proc (1 slot), 15% accuracy and 6% damage as set bonuses, and enhancement value for the power itself. You have turned 6 slots with formerly gave no enhancement value nor set bonuses into 6 slots that now give purple scalar enhancement value and purple set bonuses and purple damage procs. That's 6 more slots, at the least.

 

Not having to slot a KB2KD in the remaining powers has implications far beyond merely increasing slot-efficiency.

 

Take this example procbombing nrg ST blast slot loadout for power burst:

1. Force feedback proc
2. explosive strikes proc
3. gladiator's javelin proc
4. apoc proc
5. +5 apoc: dmg
6. KB2KD proc

Currently, due to the KB2KD proc, it is very hard to max out damage enhancement in the power. A +5 purple single is only 66%. Even musculature core would put it at 15% below the new ED cap. Musc core + overwhelming force would cap it, but both OF and apoc are unique, so this can't be repeated across the set. This introduces tradeoffs and choices that must be made in order to maximize the dps output of each of the energy blast powers. We need to choose between procs and enhancements, and this caps the power of such procbombing builds.

 

With the need for a KB2KD proc removed, the set can now be slotted as follows:

1. Force feedback proc
2. explosive strikes proc
3. gladiator's javelin proc
4. apoc proc
5. +5 apoc: dmg
6. 53 Nucleolus

This gives ED-capped (95%) damage enhancement. In other words, your suggestion is a gain of +29%, minimum, damage enhancement across every power of this build. That's a free alpha slot, before we even get into the advantage of using boosted frankenslotting to patch up other common weaknesses of such builds (such as low endredux enhancement and corresponding high eps cost) which use of KB2KD procs would enforce.

 

I need to emphasize that this situation is by no means not unique to energy blast. For example, stormies have to choose between KB2KD and 6x expedient reinforcement in their slotting of tornado. Either they mitigate the knockback, or they sacrifice the set bonuses. They also cannot slot 6x thunderstrike or 6x ATIO in lightning storm if they want a KB2KD there. These all lead to interesting build design choices and tradeoffs. Tradeoffs are good because they lead to build diversity.

 

Ultimately, though, all these terrible knockback suggestions fail to fix the real issue, if you could call it that, with knockback. There aren't really enough situations where KB is more valuable than herding up enemies into a tight clump and burning them down. We don't need more options to remove KB from the game. We need to give rise to different and equally viable strategies that can compete with the oppressive, boring, unfun, mass-aoe meta.

 

 

This reads more like an argument for nerfing proc monsters (via the procs themselves and/or the global recharge that enables them) rather than an argument against the OP's suggestion. 

[Rudra]

I would rather the set not have a universal KB to KD but instead have a proc that converts the slotted power's KB to KD. If making it a purple set, the 6-slot bonus could be a 10% recharge bonus, a 6% resist something, or basically anything else. If not a purple set, then just use a lesser bonus effect. Don't care as long as it is not a universal KB to KD set. *shrug* Otherwise? More sets that give players the option to change their KB to KD gives them more options for how to build, and that works for me.

[Wavicle]

39 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I would rather the set not have a universal KB to KD but instead have a proc that converts the slotted power's KB to KD. If making it a purple set, the 6-slot bonus could be a 10% recharge bonus, a 6% resist something, or basically anything else. If not a purple set, then just use a lesser bonus effect. Don't care as long as it is not a universal KB to KD set. *shrug* Otherwise? More sets that give players the option to change their KB to KD gives them more options for how to build, and that works for me.

I disagree. We already have two sets with such procs. This set serves a different need and requires a lot of investment.

[Bionic_Flea]

Sorry, Wavicle, but this adds a lot of power creep without any counterbalance. 

 

No thanks, /unsigned, /J Ranger, /whatever the cool kids say these days.

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Sorry, Wavicle, but this adds a lot of power creep without any counterbalance. 

 

No thanks, /unsigned, /J Ranger, /whatever the cool kids say these days.

 

But it does have counterbalance.

You can't slot it until 50.
It requires 6 slots in the power.
You have to earn the enhancements.
You can only have up to 5 Purple sets.
The set lacks +Recharge, +Def, or +Res bonuses. 

[Bionic_Flea]

5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

But it does have counterbalance.

You can't slot it until 50. - Unless you PL, then who cares.  And you mentioned making it a universal damage so that you could slot it earlier.
It requires 6 slots in the power. - That 6th slot opens up any and all other KB slots
You have to earn the enhancements. - All enhancements have to be "earned."  But most of us have plenty of earned Inf* sitting around.
You can only have up to 5 Purple sets. - Not accurate.  You can slot as many as you like and will fit in your build.  You just wont get any set bonuses over 5 and your proposal doesn't have many (any?) of the typical purple set bonuses.

The set lacks +Recharge, +Def, or +Res bonuses.  Lots of sets don't have some or all of those.  That's not a counterbalance.  Adding those would make your proposal more unbalanced.

Sorry, still no.

[Rudra]

34 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I disagree. We already have two sets with such procs. This set serves a different need and requires a lot of investment.

Of those 2 sets, one is a unique set and both are considered "enhancement taxes". They are considered "taxes" because the players slotting them can't get the bonuses they want from those sets. So they only slot the proc and then cram as much of their preferred set in as they still can. If the proposed KB to KD set were to give the players bonuses they wanted, then they would have an incentive to slot the set, maybe even the full 5 times, and stop calling KB to KD sets "enhancement taxes". Especially if you go the not-a-purple-set route you were thinking about to make it available to leveling characters.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to remove unnecessary "y" from "the".

[Wavicle]

I think I decided leaving it as a purple set is fine.

[Rudra]

Still doesn't change my stance on it needing to be a proc slotted into a power rather than a universal effect. I'm happy to have more sets. Gives players more options for their builds. I'm very much against a universal KB to KD though. Especially since that would mean players that are looking for more options for KB to KD but don't want it for all their powers would be left standing out in the cold with the proposed set. Making it a proc instead of a universal means that any and every player that wants to convert any KB to KD can use the set instead of just those players that want all KB to go away.

[Wavicle]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Still doesn't change my stance on it needing to be a proc slotted into a power rather than a universal effect. I'm happy to have more sets. Gives players more options for their builds. I'm very much against a universal KB to KD though. Especially since that would mean players that are looking for more options for KB to KD but don't want it for all their powers would be left standing out in the cold with the proposed set. Making it a proc instead of a universal means that any and every player that wants to convert any KB to KD can use the set instead of just those players that want all KB to go away.

This makes zero sense. There are already options for those people.

[Rudra]

So because they can slot a SA or OF, they have to stick with just those two choices? The new KB to KD set is exclusively for those players that want KB to not even exist? I just went from being in favor of the OP to against it. If a set is made to convert KB to KD, it should be available to all players that want to convert KB to KD, not just those that want KB to not even exist.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Rudra said:

So because they can slot a SA or OF, they have to stick with just those two choices? The new KB to KD set is exclusively for those players that want KB to not even exist? I just went from being in favor of the OP to against it. If a set is made to convert KB to KD, it should be available to all players that want to convert KB to KD, not just those that want KB to not even exist.

Why?

 

 Those people who only want it in a couple powers can do that with the current options. People who want it to go away but have more than 6 such powers cannot. This is for those characters.

[FupDup]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Why?

 

 Those people who only want it in a couple powers can do that with the current options. People who want it to go away but have more than 6 such powers cannot. This is for those characters.

Rudra's argument is that while there are currently some options, those two options (Overwhelming Force, Sudden Accel) are not covering the exact, specific bonuses that people want, which is why slotting them feels like a "tax." If there were some additional sets added that did cover those holes people are looking for, then that would likely eliminate most of the complaints because people would feel like those sets are making their build stronger rather than weaker. Especially if there was something as strong as Apoc or a winter set available that had a KB-KD proc in it. 

 

I'm fine with both your idea and Rudra's but I kinda like his idea a bit more since more sets would bring more theorycrafting fun. And I think we need more sets in general really, not just for KB/KD stuff. 

[Wavicle]

Thanks, that was very clear.

 

That makes sense. I’ll think about that if I come up with a new design.

[biostem]

Maybe the set could provide a global reduction in KB strength, which if stacked enough, provides the desired effect, like how other sets provide a small bonus to global recharge or something...

 

EDIT:  To clarify the above, I mean that you'd need multiple of the bonuses to get the full KB->KD effect, and not just a single slotting of the set.

Edited March 8, 2023 by biostem

[Zeraphia]

5 hours ago, biostem said:

Maybe the set could provide a global reduction in KB strength, which if stacked enough, provides the desired effect, like how other sets provide a small bonus to global recharge or something...

 

EDIT:  To clarify the above, I mean that you'd need multiple of the bonuses to get the full KB->KD effect, and not just a single slotting of the set.

Then it would have to be one hell of a set, and provide some very nice bonuses like 10% recharge and the KB->KD better not be the 6th slot bonus.

 

The reason for the change is so that sets actually get decent performance that isn't a massive hit akin to having to slot several powers with sudden acceleration and kill most builds out of viability for their performances. 

 

Also, KB magnitudes are not created the same, therefore this is a bit wishful thinking to reduce them all to the point that would properly KD. Implementation-wise I don't see how this works even if it went by percentages like 30% because some would still be over the limit needed to turn KB into KD, and some would even be so low in KB that there would be no effect whatsoever. 

 

I don't see this as an actual solution overall.