Clean up character recomendations

[KaizenSoze]

45 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Are you sure you weren't teaming with Strawman the Logical Fallacy?

I have seen blasters do this exact thing with the tank not far behind them.

[KaizenSoze]

6 minutes ago, Mjolnerd said:

Unfortunately, that means we find ourselves in a situation where a bunch of MLB All-Stars are trying to share a field with a beer league softball team just looking for an excuse to get out of the house on a Thursday night. One side feels like their time is being wasted playing with people who can't hit an 80mph fastball in a million years, the other thinks the first is taking things way too seriously by throwing pitches they know full well are impossible to hit in a game that's supposed to be for fun. And, to some degree, they're actually both right.

This was a very thoughtful post. My disagreement with this analogy is that speed is actually being lost because the All-stars are not keeping the mobs grouped. A lot of DPS is being lost, because the mobs are too spread out for effective AOE. When I play tank, I move a little slower and pull a specific spot, so that debuff patches, rains, etc, will hit more mobs. On Market Crashes I watch for rezes and taunt them to the same spot. Things die quicker that way, I am talking about kill mosts, which is what I usually run.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, KaizenSoze said:

I am specifically taking the first Market Crash mission. The problem is not even the rez'ed tanks, it is literally the tank running half way up the map leaving multiple bosses roaming around.

 

I have seen again and again, the tank aggros one groups, jump over the next one, then up the tunnel. The hit the aggro cap on the second group, so what to the bosses do. Turn on the rest of the team.

 

I have been on a LOT of Market Crash, and even more Penny Yin TF missions in the Terra Volta reactor (where it is possible to have a LOT of spawns in that first room). Each of these TFs offer a LOT of opportunities to have aggro from multiple Freak spawns, because the spawns are for all intents adjacent to each other. These complaints about Tankers misbehaving feel to me like folks trying to make a complaint stick against an entire AT (or two, if we invite the Fury-loving Brutes) because somebody got squished in a game that offers multiple ways to self-rez. There is no shame in having health go to zero. If that happens on a PUG, hopefully everyone on the team adjusts. (*1)

 

1 hour ago, KaizenSoze said:

I have seen blasters do this exact thing with the tank not far behind them.

 

It sounds like the issue isn't with an AT being played "wrong", it's the players that are "playing wrong"?

 

(*1) I'll send some of my Blasters ahead of the Tanker, specifically because of the aggro cap. I can tell when teammates are hanging back to watch me embarrass myself! I don't mind, as I was given both a green bar and a blue bar to use.

[Captain Fabulous]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

 

Are you sure you weren't teaming with Strawman the Logical Fallacy?

Nope. Also wasn't teaming with Captain Ad Hominem.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Nope. Also wasn't teaming with Captain Ad Hominem.

 

Is that why there weren't enough attacks to your liking?

[Captain Fabulous]

34 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Is that why there weren't enough attacks to your liking?

If you have something to say, say it. Otherwise frak off. I'm not in the mood for anyone's passive-aggressive bullshit.

[SteelRat70]

6 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

I have seen blasters do this exact thing with the tank not far behind them.

And for me this is the problem, the factor that blasters are in any way able to do this.  Previously that tactic would have resulted in a very swift reminder as to why it's generally inadvisable.

[MoonSheep]

10 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

It would decimate door-sitting. Whether that's a good or bad thing is an entire discussion of its own.

 

i would hope people wouldn’t too shocked at the concept of not receiving rewards when not playing the game but you never know

 

it would make for interesting co-op behaviours during missions - perhaps we’d see more TP powers being used, an increased focus on mopping up stragglers and physically closer team composition

 

i’d be interested in it being deployed with a wide radius to start with, reducing down after a period of time based on user feedback

 

having the SK system be be used again with a proximity would also be good in my view and thematically makes more sense

[tidge]

7 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

If you have something to say, say it. Otherwise frak off. I'm not in the mood for anyone's passive-aggressive bullshit.

 

It's been said. The passive-aggressive comment is pure projection. Your first post in this thread is a derailment into passing judgement on how other players the game. Check yourself.... you literally questioned the motives of rhetorical(?) players, which is practically the definition of an argumentum ad hominem!

 

15 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Hard disagree. The tank's job is to hold aggro and protect the team, not run off and leave stragglers behind because he needs to be the star who has to prove how ub3rl33t he is.

 

@KaizenSoze asks for a recommendation for a cleanup character, I offered a specific choice, with rationale. I still think Masterminds are the best at cleanup.

[Songseven]

12 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

I stop like a good teammate and help clear the strays.

 

yea i didn't mean to direct at you specifically, was more towards other comments..

[srmalloy]

17 hours ago, Nemu said:

It could work against you. You are assuming the people that run ahead aren't capable of soloing mobs by themselves.

That's the point. If you have people who run ahead and take out spawns, depriving the rest of the team of rewards, they will become identified as not being team players, and find it harder to find teams willing to accept them, knowing that doing so reduces the benefits the rest of the team would receive. It is not a quick solution to the problem; it requires time for the people who don't care that their actions hurt the rest of the team to be identified and put on avoid lists.

[srmalloy]

16 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

It would decimate door-sitting. Whether that's a good or bad thing is an entire discussion of its own.

It wouldn't destroy doorsitting as a concept; it would destroy AFK doorsitting, where you park your character at the mission entrance and read or chat until the mission completes. It would be necessary to follow behind the hitters to remain close enough to get rewards. Since I doubt that there are farms where the farmer(s) leave mobs behind them as they progress through the mission (as opposed to 'defeat base leader and their crew' or 'find glowie' missions in TFs that can be stealthed), following behind the hitter(s) shouldn't be a risk for the sitters.

[InvaderStych]

18 hours ago, srmalloy said:

That one's simple. Set a radius value for mob defeat; anyone not within that distance of either the defeated mob or the character getting the last hit doesn't get any reward (XP, inf, or drops).

 

Heh, nope. If you don't want door sitters then kick them from your team.  There is no reason to write code to solve what is ultimately a behavioral issue with people.

 

There are countless reasons, especially on a large map with a good team, to split to clear or to send the Ninja ahead for objectives.  Reward distribution in this game is just fine, there is no problem here that diligent team leadership cannot solve.

 

17 hours ago, Nemu said:

2 - Poor to non-existent targeting priority. Most people I see just tab and latch onto whatever that target is. Bosses are 99% of the time the highest threat/hardest to take down and it wouldn't be as much an issue if they were focused down first. Instead you get folks that two shot minions/LT and think that's it and move on to the next group, leaving the things that actually NEED to be DPSed down to teammates less capable of doing so.

 

This. So much this, all day long. There is a reason I trend toward playing hard-target specialists. 😉

 

17 hours ago, Nemu said:

Like if you are here flexing then actually do something more impressive than 2 shoting minions. That's fucking scrub tier.

 

Less so this. The assumption that anyone who brings a strong build to a team situation is always just "Flexing for an audience," is just that, an assumption. Not a great habit to develop, leads to a lot of false assumptions and misunderstandings.

 

Don't bother. You'll (the generic You, not directed at the person being quoted) feel better in general.  Assuming people's intentions is a waste of time. Especially on the internet. If they're "flexing" it'll probably come through in chat.  If they're just someone who is good at building and wants to join a team, that will as well.

 

So much Visiting of Intentions in this thread. Folks, chill out. 🤣

 

Not every toon needs to wait for the Tank. Waiting for the Tank when you're heavily armored melee is rarely necessary unless we're talking very difficult or Challenge/Hard Mode content. Staying just ahead of their path is the way.

 

 Tell my Stalkers/Scrappers to wait for the Tank and I'll tell the Tank to hurry the f$%^ up.  Porting the Stalker into a mob to queue an AS to trigger just as the Tank is arriving is Big Brain Play. Fight Me. 😉

 

The whole design of this game lends it to far more interesting play than centering a team around a Tank. Why are we trying to force UnHoly Trinity play around here and make the game more boring? 🤣

[ZemX]

19 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Hard disagree. The tank's job is to hold aggro and protect the team, not run off and leave stragglers behind because he needs to be the star who has to prove how ub3rl33t he is.

 

Maybe leave the personal insults out of it, eh?

 

I've explained why this tactic is efficient.  Why it works.  The fact it DOES work for me in game and is appreciated by actual random PuGs I team with IN GAME.  Not sure what you think your "hard disagreement" should mean to me in comparison to my actual experience. 

 

You've had a few bad experiences in PuGs and you're generalizing.  Incorrectly.  Some of us are pointing that out and you're resorting to strawman arguments rather than answering our points.   Prepping the next spawn IS tanking.   It's making sure you are there ahead of anyone else so nobody takes the alpha but you.  It is Tanking 101.   Can somebody screw that up?  Course they can.   You have to adjust on a PuG.   Nobody is saying don't do that.  But the PuG whose hands I need to hold all the way till the last boss is on the ground each spawn is a rare PuG, in my experience.  If the team CAN handle it, I am wasting my time hanging around.  My time and talents are better spent readying the next spawn for the team.  Not to showboat, but to tee them up for the team to demolish.

 

If you insist that tanker could only be doing this for reasons of ego... realize that you're projecting that.  Oh and if you don't mind, stop.  it's more than a little insulting.

[Captain Fabulous]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

 

It's been said. The passive-aggressive comment is pure projection. Your first post in this thread is a derailment into passing judgement on how other players the game. Check yourself.... you literally questioned the motives of rhetorical(?) players, which is practically the definition of an argumentum ad hominem!

 

I stated my opinion and outlined my reasoning in detail. If you don't like it you can feel free to disagree. Slinging passive-aggressive insults like a child is unnecessary. If "how others play the game" has a negative impact on their teammates I'm gonna call it out. That's how I roll. The scenarios I described are not rhetorical or straw men, as I often experience them in-game.
 

39 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Maybe leave the personal insults out of it, eh?

 

I've explained why this tactic is efficient.  Why it works.  The fact it DOES work for me in game and is appreciated by actual random PuGs I team with IN GAME.  Not sure what you think your "hard disagreement" should mean to me in comparison to my actual experience. 

 

You've had a few bad experiences in PuGs and you're generalizing.  Incorrectly.  Some of us are pointing that out and you're resorting to strawman arguments rather than answering our points.   Prepping the next spawn IS tanking.   It's making sure you are there ahead of anyone else so nobody takes the alpha but you.  It is Tanking 101.   Can somebody screw that up?  Course they can.   You have to adjust on a PuG.   Nobody is saying don't do that.  But the PuG whose hands I need to hold all the way till the last boss is on the ground each spawn is a rare PuG, in my experience.  If the team CAN handle it, I am wasting my time hanging around.  My time and talents are better spent readying the next spawn for the team.  Not to showboat, but to tee them up for the team to demolish.

 

If you insist that tanker could only be doing this for reasons of ego... realize that you're projecting that.  Oh and if you don't mind, stop.  it's more than a little insulting.

If you were insulted by a statement I made that was not directed at you personally, then I obviously held up a mirror and you didn't like the reflection you saw. That's a you problem, not a me problem.

I also clarified I was only speaking of Tanks that were running ahead and leaving squishies behind to die. If you don't EVER do that, then what I said doesn't apply to you, so you have absolutely no reason to be offended.

Sorry, but I'm going to continue to speak out about bad in-game behavior when I see it, and you are completely free to ignore me when I do.

[PLVRIZR]

20 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

I've been on a number of teams I've had to leave because the tanks refused to mop up before running ahead and the squishes kept dying because of it. It's not cool. And it's not fun.

 

I tank somewhere in the middle but adjust my game to the team.  If I need to hang and help finish off the bosses, I do.  If there's a "clean up" toon, who is taking care of that job, I don't.  I might grab the next spawn and come back to the last couple bosses, if the rest of the team is still working on them, but not in real danger.

 

I chose this comment to respond to, because I take it as a personal failure, when teammates are defeated (and I am the main tank...or playing any tank, really).  I also build (mostly trying to min-max, with allowances for creative license, possibly seen as failures by the uber-purists) for durability, first and will always take Taunt on a tank, usually when available around level 10.  Why?  Because even my T4 incarnated ROFLSTOMP-ing tanks routinely ex down for TFs and just general fun.  Other than Tanker Tuesdays and when I'm not soloing, I pick a fun tank and jump on (usually Excelsior).  The first LFG I see, regardless of level, I'll ask to join.  It has been my experience that the lower the level, the more I "hang back", but there have been some mid-40s PI radio teams who also fit that category.

Edited March 27, 2023 by PLVRIZR
reworded

[SeraphimKensai]

For the original discussion, as it seems to have veered a bit...

 

I do like the suggestion for Corruptors due to the scourge mechanic, however the things that aren't killed super fast are usually wandering mobs or boss level mobs, so a Stalker might be a good choice as well.

 

That said anything can be built to clean up stragglers or honestly to jump in and get the party started. It all comes down to how you build your toon.

 

Perhaps I'd suggest maybe a Ice/Storm/Dark Corruptor, as ice storm, freezing rain, tornadoes, and lightning storm will linger in the area cleaning it up.

Edited March 27, 2023 by SeraphimKensai
typo

[cranebump]

23 hours ago, DougGraves said:

Working as a team means characters having roles and doing different things.

I'd say it's teamwork if there's some synergy or interplay between skills. For example, my role on the basketball team might be to grab defensive rebounds and start the break. If there's no one to toss the outlet to, then my skill is just wasted. Tanker running ahead because they feel they've done enough, then leaving me, or someone else, behind to play free safety isn't "teamwork." It's 2 people performing the same task in different locations (with the one left behind having to deal with the burden of sometimes burying tough foes all by themselves).

 

Also wanted to chime in on targeting. The primary focus in an enemy group ain't always the bosses. Sappers, for example, are priority targets in Malta Groups. Sky Raider Engineers can make things really suck if they're left to activate forcefields. It's not all one way or all the other. Of course, in this age of melt everything in 2 seconds, none of this may matter anymore.

 

22 hours ago, SteelRat70 said:

Good.

 

This is a team game.  Want a solo game, play a solo game; don't expect a team game to make soloing easier.

I thought there were already some mechanisms in play to buff certain ATs when they solo'ed, versus being on a team (EX: Defenders doing more damage when solo than when on teams)? If not, that would be a way to address it. 

 

Beyond that, I don't think everyone sees this as inherently a team game. I think more people than we know team up not because they enjoy being around others, or even need their abilities, but simply because they want the additional XPs from a filled out team. The subject matter of this thread is a testament to this - the OP has seen enough instances of being left behind to clean up after others that they feel they have to devise a "free safety" toon build so other folks can play their "I'm actually soloing, but you can come along" style. Having been that person on a lot of so-called "teams," I've been able to handle most stragglers with just about any build I have. If I can't handle them alone, then I just catch up with the group (because they obviously don't give a shit about them...until everyone realizes it's a kill all and they have to backtrack).

 

(Just to be clear, I think the game is fine solo and on teams [for me, casual, chatty, non-speed teams are vastly preferable]).

Edited March 27, 2023 by cranebump

[Spectral]

To answer the OP's question

 

Any toon that is built with decent survival/mezz-protection + dps...

 

Great for the job:

MM work nicely, as do Sentinels/Scrappers/Stalkers, ...

Kheldians and VEAT are also great candidates here

 

Could do the job (really depends on sets and spec):

Corruptors/Offenders possibly (most lack mezz protection vs Crey/... for example),

Blasters hopefully (though most just charge right after the Tank to "blow stuff up"),

Dominators maybe (if they already are perma-dom'ed=mezz-protection and have good dps, so most likely only higher levels)

 

Really bad:

Controllers don't have the dps (unless very specific builds), by the time they finish killing the stray leftovers, the team is already 3 packs further down the corridor.

Defenders don't have the mezz-protection and don't have enough dps (except Offenders... see Corruptors)

________________________

 

I did not mention Brutes and Tanks because ideally - in case of 2 or more of them on a team - they should be leapfrogging and staying till stuff is dead-dead... rinse repeat... in an ideal world...

Edited March 27, 2023 by Spectral

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Captain Fabulous said:

I also clarified I was only speaking of Tanks that were running ahead and leaving squishies behind to die. If you don't EVER do that, then what I said doesn't apply to you, so you have absolutely no reason to be offended.

 

Well then I'm glad we cleared this up despite a few testy misunderstandings.  So you're good with tankers leaving the fight early as long as they do it right, yes?  Good.

[lemming]

2 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

Assuming people's intentions is a waste of time. Especially on the internet.

So much this.

 

Cleanup characters:  I give a vote toward Blasters, they don't have to move much to do so.

 

And I'm firmly against any sort of radius thing in missions, there are a few missions where it's a good thing to split up.   Heck, while my friends and I are playing, we do that a lot to finish off objectives.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

For the original discussion, as it seems to have veered a bit...

 

Has it?  I think it's all sort of related.

 

We kind of have to establish what situation we're talking about here and "clean up character" is kind of vague.  While I do believe one or two teammates might have a reason to leave a few seconds early to prep the next spawn (and this can be tankers, controllers, debuffers, or even a Stalker wanting to line up an AS before the bombs start dropping), I think you're on a very bad team if you're finding yourself literally soloing a few bosses at the end of a fight and wondering who would best accomplish that.  

 

If it's being done right, the whole team should be together for all but that last ten seconds or so of a fight.  By this point you should have no more than a couple half-dead bosses left to finish off.  THEN someone can leave to prep.   Almost any six or seven teammates left over should be able to easily finish off those bosses with absolutely no danger.  We shouldn't have to talk about who can best do it (and before someone tries, yes, you can hypothesize a team that can't handle it.  Maybe seven level 1 blasters all sidekicked to the lead tanker who has run off... wacky shit like that.... but rare).

 

If we are talking about this kind of situation, and we're really talking about which character should bring up the tail of an entire team that doesn't seem to want to finish each fight... I'm changing my answer to Scrapper w/ taunt aura.  Brute or even Tanker would be better for what I am thinking here, but playing either risks being asked to lead.  If you want to play the backfield, you can plausibly do so as a Scrapper.   The taunt aura is to be sure you have and can keep aggro on the stragglers...

 

... as you drag them up the backside of the team that has abandoned them.   It's possible doing this repeatedly may drive home the point that the team should clean its plate once in a while.  And it shouldn't be all that dangerous to drag enemies up to the team that has moved ahead so long as you have them taunted.

[SteelRat70]

1 hour ago, cranebump said:

Beyond that, I don't think everyone sees this as inherently a team game

That's fine.. but that doesn't mean they're right.
 

1 hour ago, cranebump said:

being left behind to clean up after others that they feel they have to devise a "free safety" toon build so other folks can play their "I'm actually soloing, but you can come along" style

And this situation rarely existed on live; quite the opposite in fact.  The fact that this thread exists should tell you all you need to know about where the game is right now.

 

1 hour ago, cranebump said:

Just to be clear, I think the game is fine solo and on teams [for me, casual, chatty, non-speed teams are vastly preferable

I think that depends on AT and, believe it or not, I do like / prefer generally soloable ATs like Brutes and Sentinels, so that I can take things at a more relaxed pace, read the story and maybe pick up some background lore, but I also like characters that have a greater dependency on the team dynamic, but are more difficult to play solo - that used to be the case for blasters, low level controllers and the like, but it's not like that any more.

Agreed on the preference.  Sub light run speed, chilled out chatty-lolz teams are vastly more preferable than the "Must Do Everything As Quickly As Possible" zerg fests, but those seem to be fairly few and far between, sadly.

Having said that, largely as a result of the comments in this thread, I'm specifically avoiding those "lvl 54 PI team all levels welcome" teams and seeking out the "level 30 team - no 50s please" ones that occasionally pop up.

 

[SteelRat70]

1 hour ago, PLVRIZR said:

I tank somewhere in the middle but adjust my game to the team.  If I need to hang and help finish off the bosses, I do.  If there's a "clean up" toon, who is taking care of that job, I don't.  I might grab the next spawn and come back to the last couple bosses, if the rest of the team is still working on them, but not in real danger.

Honestly, the commonality here between what you're saying and also what ZemX has been saying is that the central theme is awareness of what the rest of the team is doing and adjusting accordingly.  This is the crux of the matter.  I'm not saying that is wrong at all (quite the opposite actually!).

Those players that don't do that, and will just run off and do what they feel is right regardless of what's going on with the other 7 team members (which they have no clue what's going on with them) are the problem and they're the ones that will generally create the scenario that the OP is talking about.

The sad thing is they appear to be (at least from my experience) the rule, rather than the exception.  

[Captain Fabulous]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

So you're good with tankers leaving the fight early as long as they do it right, yes?

Yep, already said so.
 

20 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Now if the back line is strong enough to deal with strays then that's a different story.