The Marvels

[DougGraves]

6 minutes ago, Ghost said:

I know.  Kinda rambling, but I’ve been a lifelong Marvel fan and phases 1-3 were dreams come true for me

 

I'm a huge Marvel fan from my youth.  But that was the late 70's and 80's.  I stopped reading around 90 when the comics became dark.

 

I want Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes not Civil War.

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, DougGraves said:

I don't want time spent on an origin story.  I don't want superheroes fighting superheroes.  I don't want superheroes or supervillains fighting in normal clothes.

 

I very much agree with this statement.

 

The problem almost alway comes down to not wanting to follow the original (which is being done in another medium because that was popular) because it isn't "cool" or "modern" enough or won't pull in a wide enough demographic.

I can even apply that to reconning in many cases.

[Ghost]

Soooo, does this mean you guys are out on Avengers: Secret Wars??

[Aracknight]

Secret Wars from 84? I'd be here for that.

 

Secret Wars from 2015?  Not interested.

 

Which do you think we're gonna get?

[Ghost]

31 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

Secret Wars from 84? I'd be here for that.

 

Secret Wars from 2015?  Not interested.

 

Which do you think we're gonna get?

Believe it will be the 2015 version.

[Aracknight]

57 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Believe it will be the 2015 version.

I think so too.  I also feel like there are a lot of fans out there who maybe don't know there was another version in 2015, and there will be a lot of whiskey tango foxtrotting over it.

[Panache]

The 1984 Secret Wars was a yearlong advertisement for a (crappy) toy line. The Beyonder was a Jim Shooter self-insert, an in-book version of a child smashing action figures together in a bathtub. The setup is absurd and the writing is worse, and still gets laughed at to this day. The only good thing to come out of it was the black Spidey costume. 

Did I love it when it came out? You bet. I was also 8 years old.

 

[Ghost]

2 hours ago, Panache said:

The 1984 Secret Wars was a yearlong advertisement for a (crappy) toy line. The Beyonder was a Jim Shooter self-insert, an in-book version of a child smashing action figures together in a bathtub. The setup is absurd and the writing is worse, and still gets laughed at to this day. The only good thing to come out of it was the black Spidey costume. 

Did I love it when it came out? You bet. I was also 8 years old.

 

Contest of Champions was much better imo

 

[Panache]

Which was also (originally) a promo/tie-in comic (to the Olympics, scuttled when the US boycotted). 
 

it’s hard to take seriously complaints about MCU writing if these are held up as the kinds of “stories” people would like to see.

[Ghost]

14 hours ago, Panache said:

Which was also (originally) a promo/tie-in comic (to the Olympics, scuttled when the US boycotted). 
 

it’s hard to take seriously complaints about MCU writing if these are held up as the kinds of “stories” people would like to see.

You do realize that no one has said they want a word for word, panel by panel retelling of old comic stories……right?

The idea is already out there.  Now put a modern spin on it, and tell it in an enjoyable way - like the way they did with Civil War.

 

Of course if you like what’s being put out now - that’s cool.  We can’t all have the same tastes.

Edited March 5 by Ghost

[BrandX]

7 hours ago, Ghost said:

You do realize that no one has said they want a word for word, panel by panel retelling of old comic stories……right?

The idea is already out there.  Now put a modern spin on it, and tell it in an enjoyable way - like the way they did with Civil War.

 

Of course if you like what’s being put out now - that’s cool.  We can’t all have the same tastes.

 

Exactly!  Like what they've done with Star Wars.  Been terrible, when they had years of stories they could adapt to and improve for the video media (movies/shows) as they can look at and go "Okay, this worked!  Let's do it!  This was bad but it had potential if we change this!  Let's do this!" and then maybe add in a few changes of their own.

[Panache]

8 hours ago, Ghost said:

You do realize that no one has said they want a word for word, panel by panel retelling of old comic stories……right?

The idea is already out there.  Now put a modern spin on it, and tell it in an enjoyable way - like the way they did with Civil War.

 

Of course if you like what’s being put out now - that’s cool.  We can’t all have the same tastes.

It doesn’t need to be panel by panel to be goofy. The plots of those books are like when your DM does no session prep for a one-shot. “Ok, you’re all transported to a strange location by a mysterious all-powerful being, and you have to fight each other to get home”. It’s Saturday morning cartoons levels of storytelling.

[Ghost]

6 hours ago, Panache said:

It doesn’t need to be panel by panel to be goofy. The plots of those books are like when your DM does no session prep for a one-shot. “Ok, you’re all transported to a strange location by a mysterious all-powerful being, and you have to fight each other to get home”. It’s Saturday morning cartoons levels of storytelling.

 The comics you referenced earlier were written for children - as most were back in the 70s/80s.  
Just like Saturday morning cartoons were.

 

No offense, but I really don’t understand what you were expecting 

Edited March 5 by Ghost

[Panache]

20 hours ago, Ghost said:

 The comics you referenced earlier were written for children - as most were back in the 70s/80s.  
Just like Saturday morning cartoons were.

 

No offense, but I really don’t understand what you were expecting 

 

I guess was expecting adults in the 2020s would want stories that are more complex than those they enjoyed when they were in grade school.

[battlewraith]

15 minutes ago, Panache said:

I guess was expecting adults in the 2020s would want stories that are more complex than those they enjoyed when they were in grade school.

 

That's the crux of the issue right?

 

These stories are utterly ridiculous in general. The only one that approaches any degree of realism is Watchmen. If you are not a child, most of these older stories are going to be lacking. Recent superhero movies get around this issue by making comedies, psychologizing the characters, and/or making it some sort of vehicle for social commentary. All of which are played out imo. 

[Panache]

46 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

That's the crux of the issue right?

 

These stories are utterly ridiculous in general. The only one that approaches any degree of realism is Watchmen. If you are not a child, most of these older stories are going to be lacking. Recent superhero movies get around this issue by making comedies, psychologizing the characters, and/or making it some sort of vehicle for social commentary. All of which are played out imo. 

 

I think The Boys (show, not book) probably comes closest to capturing what it would be like if superpowered people showed up. I don't really even consider Watchmen a superhero book; there's only one person in that world with metahuman abilities (despite what Zak Snyder seems to think). And The Boys rules.

There's always going to be an inherent silliness about metahuman stories, but you can be silly and interesting at the same time. I personally have 0 interest in seeing the MCU turn into Bay's Transformers, but that is of course just one person's preference.

[Ghost]

2 hours ago, Panache said:

 

I guess was expecting adults in the 2020s would want stories that are more complex than those they enjoyed when they were in grade school.

Not necessarily.

A lot of times people just want to be entertained.  To forget what’s going on in the world for a few hours and escape reality.

Not to say they shouldn’t also be interesting.

Marvel chose the path of trying to appeal to the largest possible audience - and they succeeded (for a few years when the stories were interesting)

 

Watchmen was great, but very limited on who wanted to see it.

 

I enjoyed the first 2 seasons of The Boys, and then the “over the topness” of it got tiring.

 

 

 

 

[Panache]

17 hours ago, Ghost said:

Not necessarily.

A lot of times people just want to be entertained.  To forget what’s going on in the world for a few hours and escape reality.

Not to say they shouldn’t also be interesting.

Marvel chose the path of trying to appeal to the largest possible audience - and they succeeded (for a few years when the stories were interesting)

 

Watchmen was great, but very limited on who wanted to see it.

 

I enjoyed the first 2 seasons of The Boys, and then the “over the topness” of it got tiring.

 

 

 

 

I have no idea what point you’re countering here. 
 

My initial post was about the amusing low-key hypocrisy of people wanting both better stories but also adaptations of terribly written comics with childish premises. Yes, people want to be entertained by interesting stories, I think we very obviously agree. Not sure what else there is to say or why it’s being framed like some kind of rebuttal.

 

Complexity isn’t binary. Stories can be both entertaining and not made for children.

Edited March 7 by Panache

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, Panache said:

I have no idea what point you’re countering here. 
 

My initial post was about the amusing low-key hypocrisy of people wanting both better stories but also adaptations of terribly written comics with childish premises. Yes, people want to be entertained by interesting stories, I think we very obviously agree. Not sure what else there is to say or why it’s being framed like some kind of rebuttal.

 

Complexity isn’t binary. Stories can be both entertaining and not made for children.

 

They can also make those stories made for children, more grown up.

[Panache]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

 

They can also make those stories made for children, more grown up.

 

They did that, it was Secret Wars 2015.

[Ghost]

7 hours ago, Panache said:

I have no idea what point you’re countering here. 
 

My initial post was about the amusing low-key hypocrisy of people wanting both better stories but also adaptations of terribly written comics with childish premises. Yes, people want to be entertained by interesting stories, I think we very obviously agree. Not sure what else there is to say or why it’s being framed like some kind of rebuttal.

 

Complexity isn’t binary. Stories can be both entertaining and not made for children.

My mistake

I thought you were making the point that comics were childish and therefore we should expect/want childish movies since we enjoyed them.

[Panache]

31 minutes ago, Ghost said:

My mistake

I thought you were making the point that comics were childish and therefore we should expect/want childish movies since we enjoyed them.

 

Comics are just a format; superhero comics are a genre. Comics can be as silly or as dramatic as any other medium. It just might be the only entertainment medium that is thoroughly dominated by a) one genre, and b) consumers who consumed only that one genre but also stopped doing even that 30 years ago. 

Edited March 7 by Panache

[Ulysses Dare]

Just saw this one. It was definitely flawed but not as bad as the buzz had lead me to fear. Certainly less of a mess that Love & Thunder.

PROs:

Kamala is just delightful.

Carol Danvers is much less wooden that she was in Captain Marvel.
Nick Fury isn't sleepwalking through this one like he did in Secret Wars.

They made good use of Goose.

That Bollywood number was hilarious.

The post-credits scene.

 

CONs:

Way too much plot crammed into too little runtime.

Too much audience homework expected. I've seen Wandavision and Ms. Marvel. If I hadn't, the movie gave me little reason to care about Kamala or Monica.

Monica is still lacking in development. As a fan of her version of Captain Marvel, I find this particularity annoying.