CITY OF HEROES' COSMOGONY FOR BEGINNERS (or: How do I play a GOD with game canon?)

[WhiteNightingale]

Short version: Yes, you can.

Long version: This is how you do it following canon so your character's story doesn't clash with everyone else's and then things escalate to bruised egos and drama.

 

(Also, perhaps the thread could be made sticky? I think it would help people)

 

DIVINITY: CoX STYLE

 

All power comes from the Well of Furies, which for all purposes, is the universe itself. Every so so often, the universe connects with people showing unusual amounts of both power and will, and gives them a "direct line" and with this line comes power. These people with a direct line to the well are called incarnates.

 

INCARNATES ARE CoX's GODS. THIS WAS STATED EXPLICITLY BY LEAD DESIGNER AFTER THE GAME's SUNSET.

 

Gods/Incarnates are ageless but not immortal. They can be killed, and they have been several times in the past. When an incarnate dies, their power moves on and eventually finds a new vessel (just like Merulina spawned the Leviathan, or Zeus' power passed on to Statesman).

 

The first incarnates were a stand-in for the Akkadian/Sumerian pantheon (oldest documented), that's where you find Tielekku (goddess of magic, and oldest CoX deity) and the banished pantheon. After them came the Greek pantheon, which is the one the game leans on the heaviest. Statesman did not just have "the power of Zeus"... he WAS Zeus for all purposes that matter (there WAS a reason why he didn't show his full power, feel free to play Mender Ramiel's and Pandora's Box' arcs to find out).

 

Yes, there are exceptions to gods who can't be killed (Mot is entropy and oblivion, and "killing it" only empowers him, and Hamidon is life incarnate, so he simply cannot be killed).

 

ANGELS AND THE CoX DIVINE HIERARCHY

 

Incarnates are the gods. HOWEVER, in this cosmogony, "angels" serve the well, not the gods. The game shut down before we could reach that part, but "angels" in CoX are called Dimensionless, and are sort of "internal affairs" for the well. Christian angel-themed characters are probably incarnates but not exactly Dimensionless (there is no Yaweh incarnate, let's not open that can of worms). Yes, your angel character probably "hears the voice of god"... and that is the well of furies talking to them. The well of furies does many things for many reasons, some benevolent and some less so (the well started the Praetorian War).

 

The well, however, does have an actual body and persona, they are called Ascended. An ascended is someone whose power and awareness' level has grown large enough to no longer need a well because they are a well of their own. DREAM DOCTOR IS AN ASCENDED, SO ARE RULARUU AND DJ ZERO (again, as per the game's Lead Designer). Ascended can create universes if they so want (or eat them, in Rularuu's case). The devs' plan for the game before shutdow was actually ending the world by losing a big war with well-devouring entities and push the player character into becoming an ascended, pull a Zero Hour, and end with the debut of City of Heroes 2.

 

So, the hierarchy goes Ascended > Dimensionless > Incarnates > Metahumans > Everyone else.

 

PS: KHELDIANS, THE "ODD GUYS OUT"

 

Also, while I'm on that. As per the Blue King's CoH's graphic novel, Kheldians were originally intended to be CoH's "Kryptonians," and by Kryptonians I mean weirdos with more power than they have any right to and that only get even more powerful with each additional reincarnation: as per the graphic novel, killing a Kheldian only means their astral squiddy body moves on to find a new person to merge with (or possess, if nictus), thus adding the host's strength and powers to their repertoire. Statesman couldn't get rid of Requiem back in WW-II because he is literally like unto the gods. It is unclear if Kheldians are part of the well of furies or come from a different universe.

 

TRIVIA: As a reminder, Lord Recluse is not Hades, he is -Tartarus-. Tartarus is the embodiment of hell. For decades Etoile was impregnable because it was an eugenicist hellscape thus, every time Etoile citizens curse living in Hell, Recluse wakes up to a hearty breakfast... however, since the Red Widow's return (provided the HC team doesn't eschew it from canon), it is to be assumed Recluse may grow soft and uplift Etoile, effectively surrendering his power (which is why you see his echo in Mender Ramiel's arc, thus, Batallion kills him, and since we also saw Ghost Widow's echo in that same mission, Arachnos as an organization will also be obliterated).

Edited June 30, 2023 by WhiteNightingale
Recluse and hell

[Latex]

Great thread, having more info on Incarnate lore is awesome, thanks for this!

[OldManMercy]

I was unaware of how well versed in the game lore you are, WN. Kudos to you on that note.

However, I remember back when the game was live, the forums at the time of the announcement of the Well of Furries were very split. Many people did not approve of the announcement that their characters' origins weren't what they had initially intended, but simply spooge of the well. I could be mistaken, (and probably am) but I seem to recall you were one of those against the lore announcement. Maybe it was somebody else I used to RP with back on live. If you've had a change of heart, good deal. Change is, after all, the only universal constant.

However, I read your post and it seems to me like you're trying to make everyone else follow what -you- think roleplay should look like. Not everyone follows game canon. This does not automatically make them a "bad RP'er" or invalidate their characters in any way, shape or form, and while you certainly didn't say anything like that, I got the distinct feeling it was heavily implied...... which is exactly why I stopped hanging around and involving myself with your RP back on live. Intentional or not, you made me feel like I was either "doing it wrong" or "inferior", and things should always happen just the way you wanted them to.

RP is fluid, much like life itself. Constantly changing, and no opinion is invalid or wrong, simply different. Sometimes unpleasant, to be sure....but never outright wrong. Well, unless you're talking about butchering babies as a norm. Or child pornography/abuse. Things of that nature are just sick. (At least to me they are.)

 

To make it clear, I'm not being hostile, nor am I "butthurt" in any way. I moved on. I just felt I had to point this out. I wish you much success and happiness in your gaming. 🙂

[honoroit]

@OldManMercy you have a frightening character avatar. i want a burger, and i want to run away. stuff of horrors.

(you're not very nice, are you @OldManMercy)

 

your post is charged, and laced with venom; while grasping at an understanding of the fluid, you bring vitriol with throughout. it lowers the tone, and its intended to be aggressive.  you ARE being hostile, saying you are not and wrapping it with an appalling tone - is still being hostile.

 

are you ok?

[huang3721]

I will slightly derail the thread. I'm sorry in advance.

 

  

On 6/11/2023 at 4:26 PM, WhiteNightingale said:

(the well started the Praetorian War).

 

I thought Praetorian War happened because both sides did stupid things(?)

 

It started when Ultimatum tried and failed to steal Praetorian technology. Their agents got captured. Instead of using the captured agents to gain a better understanding ("We have your agents. Let's talk."), Praetoria scoured their brains and extrapolated Primal Earth's hostility based on those small samples (and an anecdotal claim from Mr. Polstra). Then both sides harassed each other, escalating the conflict. The comedy of errors culminated when Praetoria invaded Primal Earth.

 

I'll check the wiki. I must have forgotten /missed something.

Edited June 12, 2023 by huang3721
info

[Crasical]

I'm not sure if this is still canon, but the lore booklet for the Banished Pantheon had some very interesting on how gods formed in the City of Heroes universe.

 

Back in the ancient, mythic pasts, there were naturally occurring spirits of nature, animals, emotions, weather, and things of that nature. As primitive humans formed tribes, the spirits found out they could passively absorb positive energy from them, and could increase that energy by teaching, protecting, and guiding these humans. The spirits who wanted more of this energy-sustenance would demand humans worship them, becoming the first gods: Humans would worship, make offerings, and priests and shamans who did nothing BUT worship became a class, and the god would get more and more powerful. However, a god was still a very powerful spirit, and *had no powers* outside of its original domain: A spirit that grew out of a Spirit of Beasts couldn't ever influence the weather, or control fire. This is why early spirits formed pantheons, to cooperate and be able to shelter a tribe or civilization with multiple gods dividing the worship. 

(I'll interject my own unsupported hypothesis and say that these gods could also start using a single name, acting as a single unit, to give the impression of being omnipotent, which would explain gods with broad pantheons, or omnipotent 'god of everything' type religions.)

 

As the years went on, the barrier between the spirit world and earth became thicker, and humans, who had developed large civilizations, technology, and the like, needed the gods less, which resulted in less worship, and their power waned over the years.

[Latex]

On 6/12/2023 at 12:28 AM, OldManMercy said:

I was unaware of how well versed in the game lore you are, WN. Kudos to you on that note.

However, I remember back when the game was live, the forums at the time of the announcement of the Well of Furries were very split. Many people did not approve of the announcement that their characters' origins weren't what they had initially intended, but simply spooge of the well. I could be mistaken, (and probably am) but I seem to recall you were one of those against the lore announcement. Maybe it was somebody else I used to RP with back on live. If you've had a change of heart, good deal. Change is, after all, the only universal constant.

However, I read your post and it seems to me like you're trying to make everyone else follow what -you- think roleplay should look like. Not everyone follows game canon. This does not automatically make them a "bad RP'er" or invalidate their characters in any way, shape or form, and while you certainly didn't say anything like that, I got the distinct feeling it was heavily implied...... which is exactly why I stopped hanging around and involving myself with your RP back on live. Intentional or not, you made me feel like I was either "doing it wrong" or "inferior", and things should always happen just the way you wanted them to.

RP is fluid, much like life itself. Constantly changing, and no opinion is invalid or wrong, simply different. Sometimes unpleasant, to be sure....but never outright wrong. Well, unless you're talking about butchering babies as a norm. Or child pornography/abuse. Things of that nature are just sick. (At least to me they are.)

 

To make it clear, I'm not being hostile, nor am I "butthurt" in any way. I moved on. I just felt I had to point this out. I wish you much success and happiness in your gaming. 🙂

I'm not sure how we went from Incarnates to mentioning CP, wtf?

A lot of people enjoy the City of Heroes lore, I know I'm one of them. I enjoy creating characters within that lore which is the most flexible lore there is. No one is telling you what is right or wrong, but love or hate it 'lore' of the game and it's structure because of it is this video games general theme, discussing that lore should not be dismissed by drudging up a decade old drama for no reason.

There is very little resources for the games lore in general, Incarnate lore especially seems it was never finished and we -- as Roleplayers -- are left to fill in the gaps and it's up to the individual whether to heed discussions on that or not, either way the discussions with patchy unfinished lore might inspire peoples ideas and I wholly welcome that from Nightingale.

[huang3721]

According to the OP, there is a hierarchy of powers in CoH. From the lowest to the highest:

1. Metahumans
2. Incarnates
3. Dimensionless
4. Ascended

 

I wish the OP would elaborate more on this subject. Since the thread's title has "How do I play" in it, I expect a guide that teaches me how to roleplay as a god.

 

One potential problem in roleplaying is the power gap between participants. IMO, it is more challenging when the roleplay involves gods. The OP has yet to cover this area. The OP could write a guide similar to what McSpazz did some time ago, but it includes more details from the game canon.

 

I believe there are other problems, too. Anyone with knowledge on this subject willing to share (with some ways to deal with those problems)?

 

Also, I still can't find how The Well started Praetorian War. It's not important for this thread. Still, I would be happy if someone could point me in the right direction.

[WhiteNightingale]

On 6/12/2023 at 8:43 AM, huang3721 said:

I thought Praetorian War happened because both sides did stupid things(?)

 

Yes, that's what happened world-wise, but the Well nudged events in order to pick a champion earth in a trial-by-thunderdome in order to prepare for Batallion's arrival. It's late, though, and I can't remember if I read that too in Miller's Loregasm AMAs or ::doctor_manhattan_i_made_that_up.gif meme::

Edited June 30, 2023 by WhiteNightingale

[WhiteNightingale]

On 6/26/2023 at 6:38 AM, huang3721 said:

I wish the OP would elaborate more on this subject. Since the thread's title has "How do I play" in it, I expect a guide that teaches me how to roleplay as a god.

 

Sorry, the post's purpose was so players were better documented and avoided things like saying their god character "is more than an incarnate." It was not my intention to post RP etiquette guidelines, especially since I don't believe in Avengers' Dynamics (unless you specifically sign up to be the butt monkey in a RP arc involving incarnates and ascended, few people will find it fun to be "the Hawkeye." Everyone eventually resent it and I've seen it happen repeatedly).

 

Players, however, would do well that incarnate power comes with strings. Push your godly weight around too much, and the Well will start taking control of "your narrative" until you lose all free will: You'll rise when the well says you rise, and fall when the well says you fall (Tyrant anyone?). Statesman relegated himself to the sidelines years before his death, but after stopping the Cold War in the sixties and throwing the world's nuclear arsenals into the sun (reason why Malta was born) there was kinda no way back from that, thus he couldn't escape his own death when the Well (and the devs) said it was time for the story to have a new main character (the player character).

[huang3721]

23 hours ago, WhiteNightingale said:

if I read that too in Miller's Loregasm

I read the docs. IMO, the whole thing resembles a safety mechanism, so that no individual gets all the powers and brings down the whole system. The problem: everyone there has different SOPs regarding how to do his job properly.

 

What the Well is about according to AMA:
 

TS: Being more clear about the way the Well operated in the Ramiel arc. Some players became convinced we were saying that the Well was the ultimate source of all super powers. Nothing could be further from the truth. - All life generates, in small doses, a particular ripple in the fabric of the universe by their existence - you can call this psychic energy, or power, or what have you - but it is generated by their movement through space and time - kind of like static electricity as you run silk over a glass rod. Exceptional life generates an outsized amount of this energy. Over time this energy builds up like a thunderhead, and when the minds of life give it a certain potential “way out” it rushes outward down that channel. In early days of humanity, this “way out” was manifested in elemental spirits, gods, titans - to be followed later by great leaders of civilization, generals, tyrants. As each of these great figures passed on, the outsized energy they possessed became part of the Well. (to be continued)

 

and then in 2014 AMA:

A) Chris Behrens (Baryonyx) - There isn’t really a good way to answer this without tackling the second question first, so here goes.

The “Wells” were created by vastly more powerful entities than the Dimensionless. We tentatively called them the Primordials, but never settled on a player-facing name because they wouldn’t really be a factor until Issue 32 or after. The Dimensionless were the collective name for the dimension-spanning armies of each Primordial, and were charged with supervising the sapient species and their “Wells” in order to protect the first Primordial, who was bonded to the font of existence, which we internally called the Source.

“Wells” were individuals chosen by the Primordials to provide a buffer between the font of existence and the sapient species to which a “Well” was tied. Essentially, once a species became sapient, its deeper potential and creativity could leverage the energy of the Source to achieve amazing feats. “Wells” were trusted to serve as control valves helping the sapients grow their potential while keeping the power-mad from coming too close to the first Primordial/Source and threatening existence. The “Wells” would be influenced by and grow with their species, and in return the species was helped to freely develop their powers and abilities as they saw fit, but without risking everything to do it.

This is why rogue “Ascended” like Rularuu are considered extremely dangerous: by effectively becoming their own link to the Source, an Ascended could potentially gather enough power to challenge the Primordials themselves and change the nature of existence. Those chosen for it must be trusted; rogues are anything but.

Each “Well” had a watchman from the Dimensionless, who would be a check on the “Well” to ensure it didn’t get any ideas of its own, and serve as a balance to the “Well” helping the species along. Rogues generally didn’t accept such oversight willingly, making them doubly dangerous. This oversight was Prometheus’ job, though he aggressively took the approach that the Well was a tool meant to be used by the “multiverse of humanity” to shape their destiny, while the “Well” thought its role was to shape and influence the species to grow in directions where “humanity” became his tools against other “Wells”.

This conflict between the two first came to a head with the Flames of Prometheus. Zeus, one of the Well’s first champions, punished Prometheus for attempting to awaken the species’ latent ability to manipulate the Well with the Flames. Prometheus’ resentment over his punishment has festered for millennia, and he has gone from hating Zeus to hating the Well and distrusting the Dimensionless for their lack of intervention.

A second factor influencing Prometheus is the success of Battalion. He sees their continual expansion across the universe as a sign that his philosophy of “Wells are tools” is correct. Combined with his resentment of the Well and his own self-importance, Battalion’s success has inspired him to the belief that he could lead humanity to shake off the Well’s control and build a better Battalion. In this sense, he denies the player the chance to become Ascended not so much because of the threat they pose to existence, but because it would obviate his role as our guide. He would once again be surpassed by those he believes owe their success to him, as Zeus had done. He would lose to those he should control. He would once again beaten by a Well. This result was something he simply would not tolerate, and we intended for this to boil over near the end of the war with Battalion. Prometheus would have eventually become a traitor to his cause (and you) as you came closer to ascension.

Sometime in Issue 25/26, we planned to introduce a “Third Way” NPC, who would be a Dimensionless sent by the first Primordial to guide the players through the path between the Well and Prometheus. This is because the Dimensionless are aware that the defeat of Battalion means that those Wells they consumed would need to be taken over to save the lives of trillions, and the players would be in a position to ascend to do this. You could be a villainous Ascended, and rule like a tyrant, or a heroic Ascended, and rule like a paragon. Once this started, however, both Prometheus and the Well would personally take issue with it, and they would need to be dealt with. We never got far into designing this stage, however, since it would have happened around Issue 30-32.

So, with all that out of the way, DJ Zero was one of the other Ascended. There were some others, though I cannot find those notes at the moment. The Praetorian Hamidon was certainly on its way there, though.

For movement of suites of powers, this was going to be covered in the Pandora’s Box arc more thoroughly. Essentially, the Box provided a way for a “build” to be preserved separate from the “Well”, rather than be reabsorbed and redistributed. Zeus and Tartarus had done this long ago. There were many other items of great power out there that would facilitate the same thing, some of which had already been mentioned in game, and some of which we were developing. An interesting direction we planned on taking this is how these items (and the builds therein) might interact with the player, and how they could be used to assist in the war against Battalion, Prometheus and the Well.

 

Answer for another similar question:

 

A) Chris Behrens (Baryonyx) - I can’t speak for the others, as this came into the game before I joined the team, but it was certainly in the back of our mind while we developed the background that drives the Well, Prometheus, Battalion, Praetoria, the Dimensionless, the Primordials, etc. One thing we worked on in this regard for Incarnates and up was to emphasize that the Well was not the source of powers; human creativity and potential were instead leveraging the energy of the Source (which we planned to rename), through the Well, to achieve superhuman feats in whatever way they chose. The player should be the driver of their own story, and we wanted the framework to be flexible enough to accommodate that, even though it didn’t seem that way when we had to dole it out slowly.

 

[huang3721]

Regarding the dimensionless:

 

After the Battalion, what was the next "big idea" that was going to come down the road, if you had thought that far ahead?

MM: The Dimensionless are a race of beings superior to the Wells. Dealing with them once you became a well unto yourself was the next logical step.

Q) Curious, what were we gonna fight after the True Rikti?
A) Just like in the tv show 24, right before you take down the final Rikti, we’d have him make a cell phone call to his boss to show you that even the ultimate bad guy answers to someone. No idea who that would have been, but probably some rogue Dimensionless (beings that exist outside of time and space and created the Wells). (Matt)

 

Relationship between the Furies and the Well:

 

Q) Who or what are the Furies? Would we have ever seen them in-game? Are they the same in both dimensions, or is it just the one set in charge of every single alternate Earth well? (Felderburg)

A) Chris Behrens (Baryonyx) - Like Prometheus is a watcher and agent of the Dimensionless, the Furies were watchers and agents of the Well. They work to see its interests preserved, but like Prometheus notes, they haven’t evolved with their master, who has changed with “humanity” through the millennia. Their ideals are ancient and somewhat out of sync with the current mindset of the Well. However, they also still serve his interests, particularly in loosing the Talons on Praetoria to test Tyrant’s mettle, so there’s not much pulling of the leash. There was only one set for all dimensions; they were made immortal by the Well’s power. I like to think they were drawn from three different dimensions, but that wasn’t official at all. Neither was their appearance. I tended to think that they would have multiple forms, and this dichotomy in form was reflected in the beautiful Sirens and the monstrous Keres.

Q) One thing I never really got an answer to was, what was going on with Primal Earth’s Furies while Praetoria’s (insane) Furies were running rampant in our world? Why did they not intervene? (@Lycantropus)

A) Chris Behrens (Baryonyx) - There’s only one set of Furies. They unleash the Talons of Vengeance, their army of the Well’s will, on Praetoria because of Emperor Cole’s actions when claiming his power. Primal Earth originally did nothing to offend the Well or the Furies, so the Talons had no business there, until Diabolique fled there and Mot started waking up.

 

Relationship between non-Terrans and the Well

Q) Kheldian players successfully defeated Arakhn, Requiem and the world take over plot. Given that this is a multi-stellar war fought across vast distances and multiple races, what incentive was there for joined Peacebringers to stay joined and on Earth? (@Ardua)

A) In the Incarnate speculation talk we proposed that “beings who were contributing to the Well’s gestalt” - ie a way to include non-humans, artificials, mystic entities etc who called Earth “home” in some way would find themselves being drawn to it. This was the lore figleaf for why players would stay in areas around Earth, for one. (Tim)

 

Relationship between the Battalion and the Well

Q) What Lore was behind the appearance of the Battalion? I’d ask about actual details of their appearance, but...I don’t know if I’m allowed to! (@Treees/Taimatsu-maru)
A) In a nutshell. Battalion started off as a powerful race of beings who eventually conquered all their neighboring star systems and then discovered the power contained within “Wells” (of the Furies). They soon found out that multiple wells exist in the universe, and they had the capability of conquering races who had wells and adding that power to their own.

This went on for millennia. They conquered half the galaxy, and eventually started scouting for new Wells and came across “Earth”. Earth was unique. It had a powerful Well, so powerful it would bestow powers to the citizens of the planet. No other Well had done this before. It made Earth a very tempting target, but also one of the most difficult they ever would attempt to conquer. They sent agents to undermine the Earth’s defenses, many of which have been on the Earth for decades, planting themselves into positions of power. For a while they thought the Rikti were going to do their job for them, but that only proved how resilient of a species mankind actually was.

[Paragon Vanguard]

This is a bad concept to push on people looking to rp. Incarnate should just be a part of game mechanics, not the god that runs this reality. The Well of Furies is a very good and well laid out idea for creating incarnates, but should not be the only idea of why someone is powerful. That interrupts and negates actual rp. 

 

There may be fiction behind the Well of Furies, but it should not be presented as an RP absolute that all with incarnate like powers must have somehow tapped into the well. Pulling the trigger of an advanced weapon does not need the power of the Well of Furies. 

 

Also, the Well of Furies does not control the player character. 

 

The slow path of gaining Incarnate powers from the Well is one where the user gradually gains power instead of being granted a large amount of power all at once. Individuals who take this path have no risk of being controlled by the Well, because the link to the Well itself is weaker. However, individuals taking this path may still be tempted by the power of the Well and swayed onto the fast path, tying their fate to that of the Well's.

This is the path that players take when progressing through the Incarnate System. -Paragon Wiki

 

As it stands there is no fast track to take. So no one can be held accountable by the well, as it does not have a strong connection, unless one wishes to rp that. Of course anyone can just ignore this, but new players should not be presented with this as an absolute. Like Elder Scrolls, there should be something of an unreliable narrator to this, and present this as a possibility of an rp path to follow. To the incarnate that chased down the Well of Furies and is constantly trying to get more out of it....well, this is absolute( I play those characters). To the incarnate who has a rifle and can pull its trigger while wearing body armor, well, it isn't their reality, it is technology, not magic, or gods or whatever. (I play those characters).

 

"I control plant life through magic"
Yep, Well of Furies

 

"My body is mutated and I have accelerated healing"

Yep, Well of Furies

"I shoot a gun"

Yep, Well of Furies

 

"I trained my body since I was a child....."

Yep, Well of Furies

 

My point is that I would not like to see this idea forced on new rp people as an absolute. Those of us that been around understand we can ignore this, or join in on it, or do both. 

My 2 cents, not worth a dime. 🙂

 

[huang3721]

9 hours ago, Paragon Vanguard said:

This is a bad concept to push on people looking to rp

 

 

I don't think the OP was trying to push something. To their credit, they pointed me in the right direction. So, like a metahuman thirsty for The Source (and more power!), I went there. 😆

 

However, there were some discrepancies in their post, so I copy pasted the AMA from the wiki as a reference. I hope this helps others looking for info about Incarnates and the Well. 

[Paragon Vanguard]

13 hours ago, huang3721 said:

 

 

I don't think the OP was trying to push something.

 

I don't think the OP was either. It needs a little more work though before it can be made a sticky, maybe?  I word wrong at times, and go back and notice how strong something sounds compared to how I intend. "Present" as opposed to "push" should have been the actual phrasing. I see no ill will or intent from the OP nor intended any toward. I appreciate you pointing that out, and giving me the ability to correct it. 

I would like to see, if this was made sticky, something saying there is no exact when it comes to your rp. While there are stated and unstated "rules" to rp (no metagaming, no harassing....etc), how you came to be has many many interpretations. Maybe The Well is simply a tool added for rp, not a border for rp. A very acceptable reason for god like powers that wont get you looked at as if you are crazy ("my hamster is Zues and he gave me the ability to feed off of ole tube television sets until I became Incarnate Person!"). It may be true, but most will doubt. 

The Well of Furies is an absolute that wouldn't take near as much convincing.

 

Anyway...its all just discussion to me, with no ill will intended toward anyone. Thanks again! 🙂

[WhiteNightingale]

On 7/1/2023 at 4:36 AM, huang3721 said:

Regarding the dimensionless:

Thanks for the reminder! It's been over ten years, I guess things were getting blurry in my old brain.

[Greycat]

On 6/11/2023 at 4:26 AM, WhiteNightingale said:

It is unclear if Kheldians are part of the well of furies or come from a different universe.

 

And here I wrote up an entire Kheldian backstory guide. (Also available on the wiki.) They have no special tie to the well, nor are they from another universe (unless you're taking a Praetorian point of view.) They're their own species entirely.

 

Kheldians do not get stronger with every host/incarnation/whatever. They have more experience, sure, but they're not "stronger" and aren't "reincarnating." Their body is not "astral," their native form is pure energy. Kheldians started joining with hosts because they could *live longer* than their otherwise very short lifespan (by human terms.) They do also extend the life of the host.  The typical Kheld lifespan is 10 years. Shadowstar, by living through multiple hosts (at some point passing down through a family, which the current Shadowstar is part of and which her daughter Lillian will take up later) has been around since some point in Ancient Egypt, several thousand years ago.

[jkwak]

just one thought, yes the actual "Gods" are and should be Incarnates

but ever character who lived for some reason long enough and did show some inhuman abilities can have been mistaken for a god somewhere thru out history, it dosnt mean they are Gods or as strong as an Incarnate but it might have gone to there head.

imagine some guy with Wolverine like Healing Powers being alive 10k years such a character maybe truly belives they are a god even though they are nothing compared to an Incarnate.

an, character showing super powers at a time befor Pandoras Box was opened might have been considered a God to, because befor Pandoras Box was opened it was less than a one in a livetime chance to meet someone with Powers

[Crasical]

On 7/22/2023 at 4:57 PM, Greycat said:

 

And here I wrote up an entire Kheldian backstory guide.

Greycat, while you are here. Do you think that when a non-nictus Kheldian takes a host, the host is converted into an energy form similar to the native shape of a Kheldian? 
 

Essentially, does the host body remain (energy-imbued) flesh, or does it become an energy simulacrum like the Nova and Dwarf forms? I’ve been told the latter is the case, and that always seemed a little odd to me. Apologize for the off-topic diversion. 

[jkwak]

based on what i know about Kheldians the host probably does not get converted (all the time? dwarf and nova form sugest they do at least temporary) but leaves an imprint on the Kheldian/Nictus

 

there was a Kheldian Story Bible on Reddit, putting all the game lore and unreleased stuff Devs said in variouse AMAs together, but it was a google doc which got deleted and i cant find anywhere else

[Greycat]

7 hours ago, Crasical said:

Greycat, while you are here. Do you think that when a non-nictus Kheldian takes a host, the host is converted into an energy form similar to the native shape of a Kheldian? 
 

Essentially, does the host body remain (energy-imbued) flesh, or does it become an energy simulacrum like the Nova and Dwarf forms? I’ve been told the latter is the case, and that always seemed a little odd to me. Apologize for the off-topic diversion. 

 

Frankly, I've always taken it as just a conversion - matter being a form of energy, and vice versa. The body stays the body, though with slight alterations due to being combined with the Kheldian giving it the energy/negative energy resists and such.

 

I'd say the rough analog would be Star Trek's transporters (the way I understand them,) where the Kheldian joins with the host and copies the pattern (thus being able to replicate it again later) and just transfers between the states. The transporter shifts to and transmits the energy, reforming it into matter of the pattern it copied at the destination. The Kheldian, while joined, can copy the pattern back to actual matter while joined with them.

 

That's in my head, anyway.